reeeeeeaaaaaach...

[madscot13]

After I have adjusted my seat and my stem I have to admit it is sort of an awkward reach. I just feel like I shouldn't be leaning that far to be in my drops and I end up pulling back about .5-1" to rest my hands on my hoods. I was thinking of popping on the salsa short and shallow to remedy thr problem. Should I try a shorter stem? I do enjoy my bike ever so much but it is not women specific and I guess to make matters worse it is a touring bike. Any suggestions?>]

[SadieKate]

How long is your stem in centimeters? And what was the adjustment you made to it already?

And, um, what does it being a touring bike have to do with the fit?

[KnottedYet]

Yeah, what's with the touring bike? it should have you MORE upright (less reach d/t the top tube).

I'd be getting a shorter-reach stem before switching h'bars, unless the h'bars you have now are really driving you nuts. I have short-n-shallows, and really they didn't change the reach nearly as much as getting a 2cm less-reach stem did for me.

[madscot13]

Well don't touring bikes have longer top tubes? I just feel a bit stretched out. Maybe I should raise the stem even more, but at some point I think it looks ridiculous.

I raised the stem about 3 cm. How do I measure the length?

[SadieKate]

Stem length affects handling. You don't want to mess with that and take it out of the optimum range. If you're a smaller rider, a stem in the 85-100mm range is good.

There are so many other factors to fit that someone with long legs could easily have a long saddle to bar drop, no matter whether it is a touring bike or a racing bike. You can't just make an assumption.

[KnottedYet]

Well don't touring bikes have longer top tubes?

Nope. They have longer chainstays.

[SadieKate]

How do I measure the length?Quill or threadless. I'm guessing quill from your descriptions.

[madscot13]

quill

[madscot13]

THe stem is even with the seat, do you think I should raise it more?

[SadieKate]

Scroll down the page. I'll keep looking for a pic of measuring a threaded or quill stem but this should get you started.

http://www.nashbar.com/tech/sizebike.cfm

I'm back. Finding of picture of that may be hopeless, but essentially stem length is measured from the center of the headset (the bolt on a quill stem) to the center of the bars and this can obviously vary from stem to stem.

[SadieKate]

THe stem is even with the seat, do you think I should raise it more?No. Sounds great. Work on reach from here.

How tall are you, what size bike and how long is the stem?

[madscot13]

Using my fancy dancy measuring tape it looks like 90 mm.

[madscot13]

I am 5' 2" on tall days- read 5' 1". The bike is a 17" trek 520.

[KnottedYet]

I have a 90mm reach quill stem. Got my bars about an inch or 1 1/2 higher than my saddle. mmmmmMMMMMM good! (replaced a 120mm reach, and much shorter-height quill with a spiffy Nitto quill)

[SadieKate]

What's your top tube length? Go back to that article.

[madscot13]

Alright, I can't figure out how to measure my top tube but the brochure for my year cites it as 21.9"

[SadieKate]

For a little girl (I'm only 5'4" on a wishful day so I can say that :p ), that's a long top tube -- about 55 cm. You're probably going to have to change the stem and the bars to the shortest you can -- and you may still have problems and the handling may get odd. If you climb steep hills, you may really notice it.

I ride top tubes of 52.5 to 53 cm for comparison.

Don't raise the bars. Even with the saddle is fine.

[madscot13]

you would know about them hills...

Alright does anyone have a stem recommendation?

[SadieKate]

What year is your Trek 520? I'm doublechecking the geometry.

http://www.vintage-trek.com/TrekBrochures.htm

[KnottedYet]

Nitto makes some very nice quills!

I have a Nitto Technomic. I'm a tall long-armed critter with a torn up neck, and *still* have plenty of room on the Technomic to raise the bars up more if I need to. They come in all kinds of reaches. I wanted to go from a 120mm to a 80mm, but my LBS talked me out of it. Glad they did, cuz the 90mm is just perfect for me.

The Technomic cost me $40. There is also the Deluxe, which is a bit different (a lot shinier for one thing) and I think costs about $15 or $20 more.

They also make a lugged quill, for like $150.... very pretty....

[madscot13]

93 or 94. I bought it used and have always been wondering. Black quill stem, white handle bar tape, metal lugs, forest green. I think it is 93.

[SadieKate]

http://www.vintage-trek.com/images/trek/94/Trek94.pdf

A 17" 520 had a 54 cm TT - still long.

I agree, Nitto makes some nice stems which would be perfect for this.

Raising the bars doesn't really affect the reach. It affects comfort of your back and neck which may not be a problem once the reach is solved. Typical place for recreational cyclists to start is actually a hair below the saddle and touring bikes about even.

There in Minneapolis you should be able to find a good shop that can help you. Since you've got a challenge getting that bike to fit, get a shop to help you. When you change both the stem and bars, you'll need to change cable length also but it's best not to mess with them until you have the fit dialed. Murphy's Law says that you will then want to raise the bars and the cables will be too short.

Knott, I know you like your high bars but they're the extreme. It may be great for your messed up neck but some of us would absolutely hate that position and find that other things start to hurt because of it. I'd recommend starting at the mid-point for height and solve the reach. Madscot hasn't even mentioned pain, just ackwardness from the reach.

[KnottedYet]

Knott, I know you like your high bars but they're the extreme. It may be great for your messed up neck but some of us would absolutely hate that position and find that other things start to hurt because of it. I'd recommend starting at the mid-point for height and solve the reach. Madscot hasn't even mentioned pain, just ackwardness from the reach.

I never told her to raise her bars. I just told her what I had done.

Just like I told her how I'd changed my reach. Didn't tell her to change her reach to match mine. I just told her what I had done.

Not once, not anywhere, did I tell her to raise her bars. In fact, the FIRST thing I said was to look into a shorter reach stem, just like you did later. She asked about shorter reach stems vs Salsa Short-n-Shallows, and I said changing stems gave me a shorter reach more than changing to Short-n-Shallows.

[SadieKate]

Knotted, madscot kept asking if she should raise her bars and you kept saying where you have yours positioned which implied to me that you were saying yes. If you were not, my apologies but I don't know why otherwise you would keep mentioning the saddle to bar difference.

[madscot13]

I don't have any pain, just a funny feeling, when I ride. I just remember when falling into the drops was a joy, now it is sort off.

I've been considering a bike fit but was thinking of waiting until I purchased a pair of speedplay frogs. So maybe about a year, ahem, tops.

I just have to get past this winter season. I'm a bit unsure about what bike to have in Washington DC. Oh and make some money do splurge on these unnecessary but totally required things.

[SadieKate]

This is a lot of money to spend on this project then! I don't know the Short and Shallows like Knotted does, but there are many bars out there these days with shorter reach, so do your research. I suspect it's going to take bars and stem to get the reach close. That bike is just awfully big.

[madscot13]

That bike is just awfully big.

You are telling me. But it is a beauty and rides really well. It will be an investment.

[KnottedYet]

Knotted, madscot kept asking if she should raise her bars and you kept saying where you have yours positioned which implied to me that you were saying yes. If you were not, my apologies but I don't know why otherwise you would keep mentioning the saddle to bar difference.

I mentioned where mine are positioned once. When I said the bars were now 1 inch or so higher than they had been. Oh, and BY THE WAY, THE REACH IS NOW 30 MM SHORTER AND WOW, THE BARS ARE FEELING REALLY GOOD NOW!!!!!!!!! (as the rest of that post said)

Nifty Nitto, they have many different reaches for many different needs, *and* the quills are a great size that can be adjusted in all kinds of ways for all kinds of bikes/headtube lengths/rider needs. Even to great extreme heights like I prefer to ride (and wow, there is still wiggle room on the Nitto, what a great design), and which I never encouraged anyone to do.

You kept telling her not to raise the bars. I agreed with you. I never told her to raise them.

[Torrilin]

You are telling me. But it is a beauty and rides really well. It will be an investment.

*nod* You may be built more on WSD lines, so it may not be possible to get the frame to perfect. Sad.

The other possibility I see is if you're using a backpack for hauling. I went for my first backpack free grocery run yesterday. With a pack, my back and shoulders are *screaming* within a mile on the way home, with the pain centered where you'd expect it for too much reach. Yesterday? no pain. This was expected, since math says the bike's reach should be fine. Plus, previous pack free rides have been fine (just not real *practical*).

I've replaced the backpack with a pair of $40 Axiom panniers. The sewing and seam taping isn't as solid as my backpack, but my backpack has lasted through 15 years of near daily 30-45lb loads. I think it's ok if the panniers don't last through that :). I could have gone cheaper online or with Craigslist, but we decided "support the local bike shop" was higher priority than cheapest panniers possible.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Madscot,
I am 5'5" tall.
My bike came with a 90mm reach stem. After riding it several months, I found it was too lone for me. I changed to a really short 50mm stem, which I rode for a couple of months. Though it helped my reach issue, I found that it affected my steering badly- my steering was wobbly and annoying.
Then I put on a 70 stem. That eliminated the wobbly steering, and didn't seem to be too long a reach by much. I'll stick with that stem now.
Now in order to attempt to shorten my reach just a bit more, I am about to put on some shorter reach Salsa handlebars, which should not effect my steering like a short stem would.
If you compare the specs on their website, you will see that the Salsa "Poco" bars will shorten your reach substantially more than the Salsa "Short and Shallow" bars. Also the drops are less low down on the Poco than the ShortNShallow's. Measure your shoulders for width. I got the 40cm width alloy Poco bars. We will be putting them on this weekend.

Another thing you might want to try-
I know this sounds counter-intuitive.....but try shoving your saddle as far back as it will go. When I did this (at DH's recommendation) I found my weight was suddenly balanced more over my legs instead of forward so much on my hands- it moved my center of gravity back a bit and I actually felt WAY more balanced. It made a big difference and I love it.
Sounds nuts but it worked wonderfully for me- can't hurt to try it!

Will report back about the Salsa Poco bars when I get them on and try them out this weekend.

[SouthernBelle]

Just throwing in that I love my Salsa Pocos.

[Trek420]

http://www.vintage-trek.com/images/trek/94/Trek94.pdf

A 17" 520 had a 54 cm TT - still long.

I agree, Nitto makes some nice stems which would be perfect for this.

I'm 5'1" on a tall day :cool: I was about to toss my old Trek 420 circa about the same vintage into the Bay. It hurt to ride. My LBS said the frame fit me, I needed WSD or narrower bars.

I think we kept the same stem at first.

Eventually went to Nitto along with shorter crank arms.

So if the height is right and you want shorter reach could the bars do it?

But Dedo WSD (I think they weren't really women specific, just narrower with shorter reach) and Cinnelli purple cow spot bar tape and wow, what a difference. :)

And only cost about 30'ish as I recall.

I agree since we can't see you I'm sure there's a good shop in the area.

[SadieKate]

Knotted, I thought a bit more about the geometry of a bike and yes, you are correct in that the reach can get shorter when raising the bars – because of the angle of the head tube. Making this simple point would have kept the conversation to a discussion.

I’m being frank and honest because I simply don’t want my statement that “raising the bars doesn't really affect the reach” to stay there and mislead someone. But most of us respond better to the how and why of a result rather than just being battered with it. I apologize for confusing the reach/rise measurement, but I won’t for interpreting your comments about bar height as recommendations for raising the bars above the saddle. I’m not the only one who thought this way; they just didn’t state it publicly on the forum.

So in a reasonable discussion . . . 3 cm seems like a lot of difference so I have to wonder if it was the combo of three things: a shorter stem than was on before, raising the stem and any rise of the stem. Since you used a longer stem (90cm) than the originally requested 80 cm you may have kept the reach the same as that achieved by an 80cm left down at saddle height. We didn’t even discuss stem angles which adds a whole ‘nother degree of complexity to the problem. Traditional old school road bikes always had horizontal stems, so I didn’t even think to go there.

And, on the topic of raising the bars, I always think that such discussions should clearly state the pros and cons: It can solve neck and back pain. It can be more comfortable for some people. But the more upright position can mean loss of power, loss of aerodynamic efficiency and a whole lot more weight on your butt which can be painful to other people. These are personal preferences that are generally dictated both by one’s riding style and by the bike’s geometry. It's a personal choice. I really don’t care if someone wants to have their bars up in the heavens, but they need to know the pros and cons – and it simply wasn’t clear from your posts.

[emily_in_nc]

Yes, that's a big bike for you. I am 5'2.5" with an average size torso, and my road bikes have had top tubes from 19" to 19.5" long (approx. 48.25 to 49.5 cm) with stems in the 6.5 cm (a Terry) to 9 cm (Aegis Swift) range. I also ride Salsa Poco bars. With this setup, I am perfectly comfortable. I test rode a Trek 5200 in a 47 cm size a few years back. It had a 19.7" top tube with a 10 cm stem, and I felt too stretched out. I might have adapted, but why be uncomfortable?

I definitely suggest the shorter stem and Salsa Poco bars, if a new bike is not in order at this point. It's better to start with the proper frame size, but that isn't always possible. Good luck and hope you can get more comfy on your bike!

[KnottedYet]

Knotted, I thought a bit more about the geometry of a bike and yes, you are correct in that the reach can get shorter when raising the bars – because of the angle of the head tube. Making this simple point would have kept the conversation to a discussion.

I’m being frank and honest because I simply don’t want my statement that “raising the bars doesn't really affect the reach” to stay there and mislead someone. But most of us respond better to the how and why of a result rather than just being battered with it. I apologize for confusing the reach/rise measurement, but I won’t for interpreting your comments about bar height as recommendations for raising the bars above the saddle. I’m not the only one who thought this way; they just didn’t state it publicly on the forum.

So in a reasonable discussion . . . 3 cm seems like a lot of difference so I have to wonder if it was the combo of three things: a shorter stem than was on before, raising the stem and any rise of the stem. Since you used a longer stem (90cm) than the originally requested 80 cm you may have kept the reach the same as that achieved by an 80cm left down at saddle height. We didn’t even discuss stem angles which adds a whole ‘nother degree of complexity to the problem. Traditional old school road bikes always had horizontal stems, so I didn’t even think to go there.

And, on the topic of raising the bars, I always think that such discussions should clearly state the pros and cons: It can solve neck and back pain. It can be more comfortable for some people. But the more upright position can mean loss of power, loss of aerodynamic efficiency and a whole lot more weight on your butt which can be painful to other people. These are personal preferences that are generally dictated both by one’s riding style and by the bike’s geometry. It's a personal choice. I really don’t care if someone wants to have their bars up in the heavens, but they need to know the pros and cons – and it simply wasn’t clear from your posts.

I never thought of any of the reach/geometry/raising the bar stuff. Didn't know any of that.

I didn't know the reach would get shorter when I raised the bars. I never said that.

I only did what my LBS recommended.

I had nothing to state and no "simple" point to make, because I didn't know any of that.

I didn't know the conversation was anything other than a discussion.

I never told anyone to raise their bars.

Thank you for educating me on all these things I didn't know.

Have a nice weekend.

Edit: I figured 120mm minus 90mm equals 30mm. Therefore, dividing by 10, I come up with my reach shortening by 3 cm with my nice new stem. I see, back a few posts, I accidentally hit a "2" instead of a "3" when reporting measurements. I certainly hope all these amazing educational developments weren't caused my my clumsy ring finger.

[Trek420]

Yes, that's a big bike for you. I am 5'2.5" with an average size torso, and my road bikes have had top tubes from 19" to 19.5" long (approx. 48.25 to 49.5 cm) with stems in the 6.5 cm (a Terry) to 9 cm (Aegis Swift) range.

Can you make a bike that's the "wrong" size for you fit? Yes. When my bike's in the shop my LBS loans me a 51 cm bike, waaaay too big for me but he makes it fit with a different stem.

Can a bike that's the "right" size not fit? Sure. Same thing, seatpost length, seat adjustment, bars and lots of chances to go right or wrong.

In Knotts post # 3


I'd be getting a shorter-reach stem before switching h'bars, unless the h'bars you have now are really driving you nuts. I have short-n-shallows, and really they didn't change the reach nearly as much as getting a 2cm less-reach stem did for me.

This is not a recommendation to raise the bars, looks like suggested shorter reach to me.


..... It can solve neck and back pain. It can be more comfortable for some people. But the more upright position can mean loss of power, loss of aerodynamic efficiency and a whole lot more weight on your butt which can be painful to other people. These are personal preferences that are generally dictated both by one’s riding style and by the bike’s geometry. It's a personal choice. I really don’t care if someone wants to have their bars up in the heavens, but they need to know the pros and cons – and it simply wasn’t clear from your posts.

She said her bar height once.

Some may think my bars are "up in the heavens". They were put there by the man whose name goes on the frame. I just went "ok, this is comfy".

I don't know centimeters from centipedes, just feel that:

I'm faster when I'm more comfortable and I'm not real comfortable with the tone of this thread.

[Triskeliongirl]

Another thought are the Eva short reach bar that Mimi put on her new bike. I did have salsa pocos once and while I did like the short reach, I didn't like the ergo bends. I know Mimi loves her Eva bar. I also second the recom. on a nitto technomic stem. And, btw, I think it is silly to argue whether bars should or shouldn't be higher than the saddle. Each body is different. Someone with a short upper body may need that in the context of how the rest of their bike is built relative to their body, to have their body be in the same position (i.e. no more or less upright) than someone with a longer upper body/arms who has their bars below their saddle. Perhaps enlisting the help of a fitter at this time is wise, otherwise you could waste money on the wrong stem, bars, etc.

[emily_in_nc]

Can you make a bike that's the "wrong" size for you fit? Yes. When my bike's in the shop my LBS loans me a 51 cm bike, waaaay too big for me but he makes it fit with a different stem.

Yes, it can be done, but with the caveat that the shorter the stem, the poorer the handling "up front" can be (i.e., more squirrely). I noticed that with my 6.5 cm Terry stem but am fine with a 9 cm stem like on my Aegis Swift. I have read recommendations that going with a stem shorter than 7-8 cm compromises handling. If a 9 cm to 11 cm stem works with your frame, then your frame size is is in the range that's normally recommended as ok for you.

[Trek420]

Yes, it can be done, but with the caveat that the shorter the stem, the poorer the handling "up front" can be (i.e., more squirrely). I noticed that with my 6.5 cm Terry stem but am fine with a 9 cm stem like on my Aegis Swift. I have read recommendations that going with a stem shorter than 7-8 cm compromises handling. If a 9 cm to 11 cm stem works with your frame, then your frame size is is in the range that's normally recommended as ok for you.

I guess each rider has to make that decision.

Say you have a frame that you looooooove and could make it fit better with a shorter stem. Sure, it could be more squirrely.

But do you toss the frame so you can use a stem in the "normal" range?

If your ride style demands precision, fast descents, sharp corners and you can swing the cost of a new frame ... maybe.

I'd be loathe to if I could get comfortable ride with such a minor swap especially if I like the frame. :)

I like the idea of making a bike yours and what you learn by the process.

[madscot13]

Well unfortunately I don't think I have time to make these adjustments before I fly to DC. I think I will have my dad ship my bike out there and find a bike shop that will take the time to help me with this minor problem.

Golly I should ahve said this earlier but I sort of spaced out. raising my bars makes it sort of uncomfortable on my rear end and my body angle funny. Maybe it would be something I would have to get used to but I have my seat positioned just perfectly and the reach is super crazy.

I will also look into the technomatic. it looks nice and everyone seems to endorse it, so it must function ie hold the handlebars.

Sorry I am bound and determined to stick with this frame for a a few years. It is, I don't know how to say it but, steadfast and honest. A strange way to describe a bike but it is like a good friend and that is how I would describe one.

[Trek420]

Golly I should ahve said this earlier but I sort of spaced out. raising my bars makes it sort of uncomfortable on my rear end and my body angle funny. Maybe it would be something I would have to get used to but I have my seat positioned just perfectly and the reach is super crazy.

Yes, higher bars can increase the weight on the seat, lower bars increases pressure on hands arms.

Gosh, the perfect bike fit, it's always something, eh? :)

Sounds like a fit appointment is in the future for you and your frame.