Dumb TdF/Rasmussen Question

[Lifesgreat]

I have never owned a passport and am not very familiar with them, but if he truly was in Mexico, wouldn't you think he would be in a hurry to produce his passport which would show what country he was in, when? Thoughts? Passport enlightenment? :o

[uk elephant]

I have travelled all over the world, and my passport is devoid of any stamps to prove it......but there outght to be ticket stubs, reciepts etc.

[Grog]

Passports very seldom get stamped. This is very romantic, but unfortunately very rare.

Plus I don't think he has denied being in Italy after it came out...

[spazzdog]

If countries aren't gonna stamp the derned things, what's the point! Jeez! I thought it was to "prove" point of entry and exit.

spazz - whose passport is devoid of stamps because she's never been anywhere, but now sees she can say she's traveled from hither to yon (I'll need a t-shirt)

[salsabike]

I think if you're a European Union citizen, they probably don't stamp passports from one EU county to another--but I don't know this for sure.

[susiej]

I think if you're a European Union citizen, they probably don't stamp passports from one EU county to another--but I don't know this for sure.

Nope, they don't. Border crossings within the EU are like crossing the state line in the US. Driving from Stuttgart, Germany to Strasbourg, France last year we were not asked for any ID.

Even before the EU, you just needed to show valid, current ID at the border crossing (as my cousin did driving from Germany to Austria and back). As the American, I had to whip out the passport, but even then it wasn't stamped.

[bmccasland]

I think if you're a European Union citizen, they probably don't stamp passports from one EU county to another--but I don't know this for sure.

Last time I was across the Pond - I only got a Passport stamp when I entered and left the EU - the border is open to go from country to country.

Hijack - today I learned that I really really should not be on small crew boats in high seas. Went out to check a dredging project in rough weather. The good news - nothing was displaced, bad news, I did not feel like eating the fresh fried shrimp that was being served for lunch on the dredge. :(

[onimity]

Passport stamping varies widely; some countries are very strict and ceremonious about it. I think it's mostly so that countries can fine those that overstay their welcome. :D

I've little doubt that Rasmussen could arrange for a Mexican entrance/exit stamp for the specified dates as easily as any of the substances people think he might have taken...

[Grog]

If countries aren't gonna stamp the derned things, what's the point! Jeez! I thought it was to "prove" point of entry and exit.


Many countries scan the passports (especially if you enter through airports, in industrialized countries), so they know you're there, don't worry. :)

However usually when you have a visa to enter a country they affix it to your passport.

I have noticed more care about stamping passports when entering foreign countries (or groups of countries, as has been mentioned for the European Union) since 9/11. I'm also aware that Western countries will pay a lot of attention to stamps in the passports of people they perceive as "suspicious" (usually based on their skin color or how they dress). Once, entering Switzerland by train, everyone (including non-EU white people) was basically waved through. One guy was pulled aside and his passport examined thoroughly. You guessed it, a very dark African guy.

Also coming off a plane from Croatia entering Amsterdam, we had a full-on security check before even setting foot in the airport. There had been some threats at some other airport and they showed extra care with security. The woman in front of me was a (white) nun but in her passport she had some stamps Middle Eastern countries and the police officer questioned her lengthily about the reasons of her trips there.

I've even been stamped entering or leaving (but not necessarily both) France and the UK recently. I was quite surprised. But it's quite inconsistent, really...

[Eden]

you made me think and go look
In my passport I don't have any entries into the USA stamped (I'm a citizen) though I recall they always looked at it. I do have all my entries and exits from Spain, Italy and Japan - the were all very consistant about the stampings. The UK only stamped on the way in, but did so each time. The ones from Japan are the only ones on the same page right next to one another :rolleyes: Italy are on the first and last pages, Spain on opposite sides of the same page.
When we were coming into Gatwick I recall some non-us, non-eu people getting some pretty severe questioning, but the only person I've seen busted for something was a very white, very obnoxious, punk fellow on a flight out of London (jerk sat behind me, was loud, demanding and kicked my seat for 12 freaking hours). He got taken away for some sort of drugs they sniffed out in his luggage.

(even some white people just seem to fit a profile too - my uncle, a computer science professor, seems to always get pulled out for extra searches! He's kind of - please let none of my relatives read this - nerdy.... looks a lot like Alfred E. Newman with a mustache....., but none the less fits a profile for something...)

[bcipam]

From my undestanding Rasmussen has denied everything - he denies being in Italy, and he denies all claims made against him. Right now all these accusations are based on comments made by a reporter who alleges he saw Rasmussen training in Italy. Nothing more.

Rasmussen's team withdrew him from competition in order to avoid the entire team being withdraw.

I am convnced it will all be sorten out but for now, if there is no truth to the allegations how sad for Rasmussen. Sadly these guys are all guilty until proven innocent. Seems backwards to me.

And yes my passport does not have stamps from places I've been. I had to forth the border authorities to stamp it because I wanted to have the stamps. And right now travel between the USA and Mexico does not require a passport.

[Grog]

From my undestanding Rasmussen has denied everything - he denies being in Italy, and he denies all claims made against him. Right now all these accusations are based on comments made by a reporter who alleges he saw Rasmussen training in Italy. Nothing more.

Unless he lives like a monk, it should be pretty easy for him to demonstrate that he was in a country or another. Like another poster mentioned earlier, there would be credit card records, and probably cell phone calls records too. Of course if he seriously had planned that he could have had someone with his phone and cards in any country...

[RoadRaven]

bcipam... you have probably caught up with this, but when his manager asked if he had been in Italy, Rasmussen 'fessed up and that is why he was fired on the spot - because he lied.

He lied to his management and to his team - and lying to his team is a HUGE break in trust. Foolish, foolish boy :mad:

[Grog]

bcipam... you have probably caught up with this, but when his manager asked if he had been in Italy, Rasmussen 'fessed up and that is why he was fired on the spot - because he lied.

He lied to his management and to his team - and lying to his team is a HUGE break in trust. Foolish, foolish boy :mad:

Actually that's the version of the story I had until I did research on more recent articles, and turns out Rasmussen IS denying having been in Italy (although the team said he confessed being in there)... (or so is he reported by the French Wikipedia to have declared to the Danish newspapers)...

[Triskeliongirl]

I do think there should be passport stamps (my passport has them), but if not, there should be airline tickets (which if discarded I am sure the airline could corroborate were purchased, etc.). That is why it is clear he is lying.

[Mr. Bloom]

I think Rabobank's decision to hold him to a higher standard (that is, truthfulness) and not let athletics get reduced to mere medical testing will help the sport by setting a standard for folks who "push the envelope".

I'm one who believes that Integrity is Right and that in the long run, truth will always prevail. I wish everyone would hold themselves to a standard of avoiding even the appearance of impropriety!

[Delta7]

I suppose if one is in competition, one may want to keep training strategies secret. Is the UCI known for keeping the "whereabouts" information confidential?

I read he was seen riding in the Dolomites (Passo di San Pellegrino, 1910 meters). According to Tour de France for Dummies :o this would be considered a "beyond category" climb ... great training for le Tour perhaps?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/sport/story/0,,2137296,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolomites

He said he failed no doping tests, but if he didn't show up for a random test, is it like not showing up for a "pop-quiz" in school? Did he not have a cell phone? Too bad, if he is actually the best athlete and did not dope, to lose his jersey this way.

[MM_QFC!]

I think that his own team fired him/told him to pull out and leave the TdF for lying. He told them he was in Mexico and he wasn't/can't prove it/won't prove it/whatever.

This situation came along after he had already been booted off the Danish National team for missing more than the allowable (2 per year? not sure what the UCI rules are that the rider members agree too random drug tests. Riders are supposed to notify of their whereabouts in case there's a random screen to happen and there is a limit as to how many you can be AWOL for...seems pretty straightforward and easy to understand, so it also seems as though he may've made a conscious decision to be a no-show or not comply and so shouldn't he expect some consequences?

[Fredwina]

I think Rabobank's decision to hold him to a higher standard (that is, truthfulness) and not let athletics get reduced to mere medical testing will help the sport by setting a standard for folks who "push the envelope".

I'm one who believes that Integrity is Right and that in the long run, truth will always prevail. I wish everyone would hold themselves to a standard of avoiding even the appearance of impropriety!

And in case you missed it. Rabobank is in the business of.....
Banking! (we , we have Rabobanks in CA)
So I could see where have having a "artful dodger" advertising(which is what the business of bike racing is about) for your establishment would be a bit galling (Actually, I thought I read that the decision came from the Board of Rabobank instead of the cycling team) And that I think is going to be trend in pro racing, that the Corps writing the check are going to keep the "sporting" folks on a tighter leash to avoid potential embarrassment. T-mobile did this, although did they get bit by Patrik "Stinkypants"

[Grog]

And in case you missed it. Rabobank is in the business of.....
Banking! (we , we have Rabobanks in CA)
So I could see where have having a "artful dodger" advertising(which is what the business of bike racing is about) for your establishment would be a bit galling (Actually, I thought I read that the decision came from the Board of Rabobank instead of the cycling team)

Interesting! Indeed, if I was the sponsor, I would be more than a little annoyed to learn through the media, halfway through the race, that one of the guys I'm pouring dollars (or Euros...) on is not reporting to controls.

I'm curious about the project to have spots reserved for national teams on the tour next year. That would certainly reduce the role of corporate boards on the sport, among interesting side effects...

[Duck on Wheels]

I suppose if one is in competition, one may want to keep training strategies secret. Is the UCI known for keeping the "whereabouts" information confidential?

I read he was seen riding in the Dolomites (Passo di San Pellegrino, 1910 meters). According to Tour de France for Dummies :o this would be considered a "beyond category" climb ... great training for le Tour perhaps?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/sport/story/0,,2137296,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolomites

He said he failed no doping tests, but if he didn't show up for a random test, is it like not showing up for a "pop-quiz" in school? Did he not have a cell phone? Too bad, if he is actually the best athlete and did not dope, to lose his jersey this way.

Training secrets are not the issue here. The rule is that you report, some weeks in advance, one time and place where you can be found each day in case your name comes up for a random test. One time, one place. Doesn't mean you have to be there all day. Doesn't mean you have to say where else you are that day. So if you make it a "midnight rendezvous" you can cut this down to every other day, effectively. Which means you can still keep your whereabouts secret enough if that's important for your training edge. And you can even change your plans, as long as you report the change and give new time-and-place info. Giving the drug squad the runaround is not a good idea. Not only does it raise suspicions about your own possible drug use, it also sabotages the whole anti-drug effort, making it easier for your competition to cheat. And it reflects poorly on your sponsors who, as we saw, may decide to save their reputation by dumping you. So why do it? At best, this was a stupid, arrogant move on Rasmussens part. At worst, he was hiding a drug cheat during his training period.

[Triskeliongirl]

I read that the rule is that if you miss 3 random tests in an 18 month period, which he did, that can be taken as a positive drug test. That was the reason he was kicked off his national squad. Its not about rabobank holding him to a 'higher standard' its about him meeting the standard expected of all athletes. Add to that, it was not as simple as him not being home, i.e. being where he said he was but not locatable, but being in a different country from where he said he was, and I have very little sympathy for him. Its sport, sport has rules, and he broke the rules. It would be nice though, if the UCI would uniformally enforce these rules. It seems if it had been reported by the UCI to the tour officials in a timely manner, he (and anyone else in his position) should have simply not started.

[margo49]

I seems if it had been reported by the UCI to the tour officials in a timely manner, he (and anyone else in his position) should have simply not started.

There is a lot of bad feeling between the UCI and ASO (who run the TdF and other Big Races). Hence bad communication.

[Grog]

That was the reason he was kicked off his national squad. Its not about rabobank holding him to a 'higher standard' its about him meeting the standard expected of all athletes.

These are two different things. He was kicked out of his national team and then by Rabobank, but they wouldn't have had to. You don't have to be on a national team to be in the TdF (although they are considering opening up spots for national teams on next year's tour).

[Eden]

Michael claims he hasn't been part of the Danish national team since 2004 and was a bit confused as to why they bothered to kick him off a a team he wasn't on... (he also said he didn't think the Danish Sporting Association had any jurisdiction over him since he isn't licensed or residing there)
Someone over at cycling forums posted a translation of a recent interview. Rasmussen's pretty evasive about the whole Mexico/Italy thing, just saying he can't talk about it because of the legal case, but he talks about the missed tests - says he wasn't subject to the Danish ones and that the UCI ones were an oversight and that he feels singled out since 5 of his other teammates had some of the same paperwork issues too and they only recieved a friendly verbal reminder.

[Geonz]

http://www.slate.com/id/2171291/nav/tap3/ has a pretty plausible explanation for how cycling culture could rather lend itself to doping.

[amymisk]

Just to clarify one point, you do need a passport to travel to Mexico or Canada from the US. This was started in January this year.

I have no sympathy for Rassmussen. He lied about his location for training. Why lie if you are training clean?

[spazzdog]

I say cheat once and you're banned for life... in this day and age, there's not a athlete out there that isn't totally aware of what's going into their body.

The whole "I didn't know" and "I feel so ashamed" doesn't do it for me.

Cheat once and you're out, period. Go work at MacDonalds. Now if only the American professional and collegiate sports would take action within their regulations.

spazz (who also believes in hangin' for horse theivin' or kickin' the dog)

[Mr. Bloom]

And in case you missed it. Rabobank is in the business of.....
Banking!


Back in the day, it was common for banks to share credit references on businesses they had relationships with.

In the US, banks would respond simply that a business' transactions had "been handled as agreed".

Northern European Banks (like Rabobank) would reply favorably that a business was "serious and reliable".

I think there is a lot of hidden meaning in that phrase...and explains to me why RaboBank dealt with missed testing (and the potential inferences that one could draw) in the way they did.

[kelownagirl]

You don't need a passport to drive to the US from Canada (and presumably vice versa) but you do need a passport to fly into the country. Next January, we will need passports to cross the border by land as well.

[smilingcat]

Hi Spazz,

I totally understand how you feel. But there is one aspect of doping you may not be aware of. Potential sabatoge by your opponent, fans of your opponent and so forth. This is why pro riders have a clear directives not to accept a fresh water bottle from a spectator (I think you get penalized time wise too) or any non-team member for that matter. The drink and food could be spiked so that you end up testing positive. You don't realize that you been given illicit drugs. So the rider could be an innocent victim.

Has something like this ever happened? I really doubt it but it could. Look at Tanya Harding in figure skating. Her goon friends went and tried to break the knee on Nancy Kerrigan (sp).

smilingcat