Vino positive!!!

[maillotpois]

I haven't seen any English language news on this, but apparently Vino tested positive for homologous blood transfusion after the TT:

www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves2007/20070724_171249Dev.html

Of note - the Châtenay-Malabry lab is again involved (maybe they're the only lab in France?).

It sounds like he's quitting the Tour now. (At the end - my French isn't 100%).

ETA: Now it's hitting the English language news:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/news/?id=/news/2007/jul07/jul25news

[IFjane]

I have not said this publicly, but I had a feeling he was doping. Time will tell.

[IFjane]

http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/details/articles/12910.0.html

[li10up]

Right after the stage win yesterday Vino was talking in the ear at length with someone. I had a strange feeling that he was telling them that problems were on the horizon or that he had decided to quit. I had a flashback to Landis and thought to myself... this will either prove that Landis was clean or that Vino will be found to have doped.

[BikeMomma]

Pardon my expression here, but WTF is wrong with these guys???? Do they not realize how doping is ruining the grandeur of professional cycling? Do they not realize that they have soured the flavor of this year's Tour??

Pleeeeaase let this be untrue.

I just cannot understand or fathom how someone could be so freaking stupid. Thanks Vino. Thanks alot. Courage my azz! :mad: :rolleyes:

(AAArrrrg!!!)
Thanks for the opportunity to vent, gals.
~BikeMomma

[maillotpois]

I am also really mad about this. What are they thinking?? And then there's the guy who says Rasmussen tried to get him to bring veterinary blood replacement to Europe in a shoebox several years ago. It's all as bad as Rumsas' wife and Vandenbrooke's dog.


:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[sundial]

I'm sooooooo unhappy about this development. Why oh why do these boys try stunts like this?? I have been following Vino since his crash and I was so happy for him in the last stage. And now.......:eek:

I hope our Discovery boys are clean. :(

[bikerchick68]

this makes me mad too. these guys are and have been my heroes... the people I think of and look up to when I'm out there suffering on MY bike... how freakin dare they? :mad:

it's so danged disappointing. :(

[Kalidurga]

The fact that Astana's pulled out of the Tour seems like an admission of guilt, but I'd still like to see a statement from Vino. After the TT, I also wondered how long it would be before there was some accusation against him, but Astana's response to this implies a lot.

At this point, I'm too stunned to feel anything but sadness. Sad that someone like Vino would feel it necessary to do something of this sort, sad that two of my heroes (Floyd and Vino) have this ugly issue hanging over them, sad that this issue exists at all. Even though, I still feel a naive, yet subdued, excitement to see who pulls through all this chaos to stand on the podium this coming Sunday. Dunno whether to believe the winner will be clean, though... :(

[GLC1968]

this makes me mad too. these guys are and have been my heroes... the people I think of and look up to when I'm out there suffering on MY bike... how freakin dare they? :mad:

it's so danged disappointing. :(

Exactly.

I feel like crying now.

[gingergin]

Wow- yes I just read on cnn that the Astana Team left the TdF today. How do these guys think they have the right to muddy their (and our ) sport like this?
Don't think about Vino - think about the guys like Alberto Contador and how awesome he is....and hopefully clean and honest!

[Pedal Wench]

I'm so upset too. After watching his remarkable ride yesterday, I had the same flashbacks to Floyd's performance last year - amazing ride after a miserable day. I'll be skeptical of anyone at this point.

[sundial]

Did you guys catch the announcer saying that the head of Astana was going to give them a 10 year contract? I wonder if that contract has been voided now?

I had a great ride this morning and as I started to wane, I kept Vino's struggle in my thoughts to serve as an encouragement. Now I feel so let down. :(

[sundial]

So did Landis actually test positive, and were his levels just below the threshold for an illegal substance? :confused:

[Thorn]

You want to believe, but, then this....sigh....But, I will wait to see what he says. As a conspiracy theorist, how hard would it be to contaminate the blood sample? Or, perhaps, he really did it.

Still I continue to back cycling. It is a sport unlike any others in terms of truly being a "team" sport. The sport doesn't breed the superstar like other sports. Sure, Armstrong was the undisputed captain for Discovery, but, when it wasn't his race, he played domestique (images of him carrying water bottles for Danielson at the Tour de Georgia). You so rarely see that (and never in the US's most popular sports).

Doping aside, cycling is unique. I remain a fan...

[Grog]

There has been doping in professional cycling since the early days, with riders taking amphetamines and champagne (the light bubbles makes for fearless descending), among other things. It is profoundly part of the culture. EPO is relatively accessible to Cat 1-2 racers on the regional scene, who really thinks it wouldn't be for pros?

Doping is the only way to remain in the peloton, meter of elevation after meter of elevation, kilometer of suffering after kilometer of suffering, day after day, week after week. This is a BRUTAL sport (compared to, say, triathlon, where pros do not race more than every week or every other week). This doesn't mean that these guys are not exceptional athletes. But when a drug like EPO can improve one's capabilities by 10-20%, well that's over 6 minutes per hour.

I'm not mad at the racers as I feel really sorry for them. They have to close their eyes to whatever is going on, they ingest all sorts of things with or without knowing (or rather without wanting to know), they put their health at tremendous risks. The team directors and soigneurs are very well aware of what is going on. But it's these guys' dream to be in races like the Tour de France. Not doping, or speaking up about it, will mean the end of their dream (and lawsuits, and losing whatever respect they had received from racing, and conflicts with their friends and families, etc.). Sure, they have a choice: doping or quitting pro cycling. And they have to keep lying all the time, to others but also to themselves, to their closest friends and family. That must be awful.

Now that controls are stricter, things get messier, I'm afraid, new stuff is tried out (blood transfusions), drugs are taken as a cocktail (sub-detectable doses of individual drugs which together make a powerful mix, with possibly lethal effects), sometimes the guesses are wrong, or the dosage is not quite right, and they get caught. Other times, as has been seen in a number of occasions over the history of cycling, they die.

There might be an oddball here or there that's not taking anything at all, and that has never ever touched anything (knowingly at least), but that would be really rare I'm afraid.

I am not sure it was meant like that, but I increasingly see the Triplettes de Belleville as a metaphor on the doping. They race the cyclists until they die, who cares about their physical and mental health?

[Ninabike]

I had a great ride this morning and as I started to wane, I kept Vino's struggle in my thoughts to serve as an encouragement. Now I feel so let down. :([/QUOTE]

I feel the same way about Vino. I kept thinking, what an inspiration he is. If he can get back on the bike after his crash, then I can keep going. And now this . . .

[Eden]

So did Landis actually test positive, and were his levels just below the threshold for an illegal substance? :confused:

Landis tested as having abnormal testosterone to epitestoterone ratios
Now any use of outside testosterone would be banned, but the tests for this are tricky and it is a naturally occuring substance in the body. Though I haven't read all of the defense I believe that there are some arguments for suspect testing procedures in there. The mass spectrometer (sp?) test that proved the T was not natural sounds like a fairly hard one to counter though.

I think you may be remembering a Lance Armstrong test - it was for a very low level of a steroid, under the threshold for a positive doping test (as this is also a substance that naturally occurs in the body) and was also explained by possible contamination by a legal topical saddle sore cream.

The test for homologous blood doping is also tricky and actually quite subjective, so lets wait for the testing of the B sample (and Vinokurov himself has requested B sample testing) before we make any condemnations.

[mimitabby]

gosh, if these guys want to cheat, why dont they just put motors on their bikes!!

IF he's really been doing this...

sigh.

I still believe Landis was framed.


i'd like to see a race where we can see how the BEST MAN sans drugs, extra blood,
extra stimulants... can win.. who CARES if it's not as fast as last year??!

[smilingcat]

I'm just really cynical about doping, drugs and such.

I've said it before, it's just too easy and they think they can get away with it. Very sad indeed but I'm not all the suprised.

The money and fame is just too great for some. So if you only took 1/2 or even 1/3 of what guys used to take, they think they can get an edge. For some that is all the difference they need to place on the podium. 4hour ride and at the finish its down to less than 5 seconds. 5 divided by 4x60x60. Its a very small percentage.

The another dark side of this doping/drug issue is some "spectators" want their team to win so they'll try to give other riders a spiked bottle in hopes that the other rider will test positive. And its no just drink but food, snack you name it. The riders for the most part know not to take any freebies from spectators and are INSTRUCTED NOT TO DRINK FREEBIE LIQUID from their coaches, mgrs. Maybe some have tried to use this as an excuse for testing positive. :rolleyes:

smilingcat

[smilingcat]

EPO is also readily available at cat3 and all the way down to cat5. A lot of guys just don't care and think they are invincible. Until they die in there sleep that is. One of the side effects of EPO: blood is too thick and doesn't flow freely through your system is what I was told.

Other stuff is readily available too. I know Eden hasn't ran across and just can't imagine why anyone would spend $$ for the drugs just to win some measly primes. The guys who take it their head isn't screwed on right.

smilingcat

[Kalidurga]

David Millar's response to this is also very interesting. My first reaction was to think that yes, he served his suspension like a good boy, but he should still have a little more humility. But then I thought about the fact that this news was disclosed during a Saunier-Duval press conference in which that team was announcing something good that they were doing for the world and that their news was totally overshadowed. It's fairly understandable that he'd react so emotionally.

Once again, this confirms for me that Slipstream is a team to watch. If they're as vigilant as they advertise they are, they may very well be the only "clean" team in cycling. Millar was also going to announce that he's joining Slipstream in 2008, and there's a rumor that Dave Z will also be signing with them. That would definitely put them on the map and create some seriously high expectations for them.

[Kano]

Never mind whether or not he or anyone else is or was doing it --

Last year was my first Tour.

The moment a guy had a Hors-crappegory day, followed by a stupendous day, he was busted.

This year, same thing, right around the same part of the race.

As a newcomer, it's not surprising to me that the drug-czars for this sport would choose to declare "Vino's Doping" the moment he has a big turn around.

Who will do a couple of rides like this and get accused next year?

Karen in Boise

[slinkedog]

What a total downer. I'm very sad for the sport of cycling, but I can't say I'm all that surprised. I hope in a few years cycling will be totally clean, but I doubt it.

My husband used to race Cat 1 on the track and went to the Olympic trials in 1996. He could never understand why there were some guys that just had it so much over everyone else. He was too naive to realize they were likely doping at the time... now he remembers all the puffy faces and other weird stuff that he never put together before. It's sad.

[Susan126]

As David Millar said . . .

"I just feel like crying right now."

What was he thinking? :confused:

I just don't understand!

[SadieKate]

I'm wondering if many of the pros are motivated by the Slipstream offers so that they have the possibility of being remembered as clean riders and not having their results questioned. Yes, you still stand the risk of competing against doped cyclists and losing, but the credibility and respect you'd gain.

Think about it. Barry Bonds is always going to have a question mark after his name.

[HappyAnika]

Honestly I can't say I'm surprised. Not a Vino fan here. I thought he was evil . . . Ok, maybe evil is a strong word, villain-esque? Rassmusen on the other hand, I like him. I hope his tests continue to come back clean.

I still think there are serious flaws in the testing procedures. More samples need to be sent to independent labs (outside of France). One lab doing all the testing, when it's been shown there are problems with their protocols . . . how are we supposed to believe their results? That's why I'm still on the fence about Floyd. Honestly not a huge Floyd fan either, but I have a hunch he was set up by the lab.

I should add that I think Floyd was framed simply because he's an American.

[pll]

I think I may be missing something, but why does the Tour invite the team an opportunity to withdraw, rather than some conditional stay (everybody in the team gets tested)? I feel sorry for Andreas Kloeden, who was in 5th place and could have within contention.

[Zen]

Shouldn't this post have come with a "spoiler alert"?

[Kalidurga]

I still think there are serious flaws in the testing procedures. More samples need to be sent to independent labs (outside of France). One lab doing all the testing, when it's been shown there are problems with their protocols . . . how are we supposed to believe their results? That's why I'm still on the fence about Floyd. Honestly not a huge Floyd fan either, but I have a hunch he was set up by the lab.

I should add that I think Floyd was framed simply because he's an American.

Yeah, the fact that they continue to use that lab bothers me, as well. I don't see any reason to frame Vino, as he's not a GC threat, but that lab's integrity has been called into question repeatedly so it just throws suspicion over any of their findings.

[Kalidurga]

Shouldn't this post have come with a "spoiler alert"?

It's been reported at CNN and in cyling news. Why would anyone want to maintain suspense at finding this out?

[slinkedog]

We have very good friends who live in Paris and they say it's hard for Americans to understand how much the French hate the fact that Americans have been dominating the sport. It's a little scary, according to them.

[Fredwina]

who?
where?
what?
why?
when?
you're probably familar with these questions
who? where? what? we know that
why? (if he did it) One explanation is that the program was team-wide, and a mixup was made, and Vino got somebody else's blood, which means somebody on Astana has Vino's blood.
The ASO(The company that runs Le Tour) and the UCI offers Astana a deal. the team leaves en masse or we test all your riders.
I personally don't look for pro to be motivaed, as Smiling Cat mentioned ( and some of my RealLife buddies have confirmed) , doping is everywhere. Besides, I have a buddy on bikejournal that finished RAAM with 80 some-odd stiches

[jobob]

I'm with Kalidurga - this is hardly a "spoiler".

A debacle, yes.

[alpinerabbit]

The sponsors should be made to pay for cross-the-board tests, every day, on every player, in every sport. Heck some former golf pro suggested they should start testing the PGA tour, we'd see what comes out...

The riders are desperate, they need wins to support their life after 35. They've gambled everything on this sport.

You know what I do care about - we would not have access to Campy, carbon, or speedplay if it was not for drug-infested pro cycling. Now THAT would $uck.

[pll]

Thanks Fredwina! That clarifies it for me.


who?
The ASO(The company that runs Le Tour) and the UCI offers Astana a deal. the team leaves en masse or we test all your riders.
stiches

[Eden]

Wait! - the contract that the teams signed before the tour started - did that have a clause about pulling the team if a single rider tested positive? I will do some research. It would not suprise me.

[maillotpois]

Shouldn't this post have come with a "spoiler alert"?



It's been reported at CNN and in cyling news. Why would anyone want to maintain suspense at finding this out?

I think ZC was really more lamenting the fact that she'd rather not have found out about this. As all the rest of us probably feel.

[Fredwina]

Wait! - the contract that the teams signed before the tour started - did that have a clause about pulling the team if a single rider tested positive? I will do some research. It would not suprise me.

Could be that too. Spent too many years writing criminal records tracking system.:o Al othugh , most news source are reporting that they were "asked" to leave...

[amymisk]

It is sad to see. I was a bit disappointed in Vino, but not shocked.

I also don't believe it could be a simple mix up with same type blood. There are all kinds of anitbodies in blood that have to be checked for compatability, not just the blood type and Rh pos/neg. It would be astounding to me that they accidently mixed up the blood and it just so happened that both riders affected had no antibodies or reaction to the blood.

I would like to see a doping free tour but like others have said the money and fame make such a tempting offer. Not to mention, the fans who have a huge desire to see their hero be super human.

I am still a cycling fan and will continue to watch. If nothing else, Rasmussen and Contador have added a thrill.

[margo49]

DS#2 brought this to my attention as soon as he saw it on a local news site a few minutes ago...
Checked the Eurosport site first and then came over here...

Gutted, just gutted...

[Kano]

So, has any french rider ever tested positive when tested by this lab?

Karen in Boise

[Grog]

Yeah, the fact that they continue to use that lab bothers me, as well. I don't see any reason to frame Vino, as he's not a GC threat, but that lab's integrity has been called into question repeatedly so it just throws suspicion over any of their findings.

Considering the heavy stakes, I can't imagine a lab whose integrity wouldn't be questioned after its results were used to accuse riders of doping.

Of course the lab has had cases with Americans: they've been winning. Back-of-the-peloton French riders don't get tested as often because they don't win very often.

[xeney]

Don't think about Vino - think about the guys like Alberto Contador and how awesome he is....and hopefully clean and honest!

I love Contador, too, but remember he was already implicated in the Operacion Puerto scandal. I have no illusions that any of them are clean.

[maillotpois]

Recall that Vino will be the first rider to test positive under that new charter they made everyone sign before they could ride in the Tour. Under that agreement, he will forfeit his 2007 salary for a positive test.

[Darby361]

Here is a question... why was the entire team asked to leave? If the rule is that the entire team goes from one positive, then why didn't all of T-Mobile get asked to leave when Sinkewitz tested positive?

Trish

[li10up]

The idea of it being a "mix up" is totally ...bull$hit.
HE NEVER SHOULD HAVE LET SOMEONE PUT A NEEDLE IN HIS ARM WITH A BAG OF BLOOD ON THE OTHER END!!!!!!! That in itself would show he knowingly participated.

[*Mg*]

It is sad to see. I was a bit disappointed in Vino, but not shocked.

I also don't believe it could be a simple mix up with same type blood. There are all kinds of anitbodies in blood that have to be checked for compatability, not just the blood type and Rh pos/neg. It would be astounding to me that they accidently mixed up the blood and it just so happened that both riders affected had no antibodies or reaction to the blood.

I would like to see a doping free tour but like others have said the money and fame make such a tempting offer. Not to mention, the fans who have a huge desire to see their hero be super human.

I am still a cycling fan and will continue to watch. If nothing else, Rasmussen and Contador have added a thrill.

Rasmussen is in the middle of controversy with a shoe box, and there was talk that Contador was tied to Operation Puerto. At this point, the only one I believe to be clean is Bob Roll!!

[Eden]

Here is a question... why was the entire team asked to leave? If the rule is that the entire team goes from one positive, then why didn't all of T-Mobile get asked to leave when Sinkewitz tested positive?

Trish

The Sinkewitz positive was not during the TDF, it was just announced during the TDF. Plus, he had already pulled out of the TDF because of a crash by the time the announcement was made.

[onimity]

I've read a couple of reports that indicate that the team has not pulled out of the race. Also that the police have raided their hotel.

Who knows, but it is a disappointing development all around.

[maillotpois]

..... the only one I believe to be clean is Bob Roll!!

Having met him, I wouldn't exactly describe him as "clean" in any sense of the word... :cool:

[SadieKate]

Fuentes himself stated that he had never treated Contador and Contador has been formally cleared.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jan07/jan15news2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Puerto_doping_case

From what I have also read, his name was never found in the records but I can't find this article right now.

[mekira]

I'm so disapointed :( I was cheering him on last night and was so happy that he came back after his injuries... oh well so much for that :mad:

[jeannierides]

Pardon my expression here, but WTF is wrong with these guys???? Do they not realize how doping is ruining the grandeur of professional cycling? Do they not realize that they have soured the flavor of this year's Tour??

Pleeeeaase let this be untrue.

I just cannot understand or fathom how someone could be so freaking stupid. Thanks Vino. Thanks alot. Courage my azz! :mad: :rolleyes:

(AAArrrrg!!!)
Thanks for the opportunity to vent, gals.
~BikeMomma

This was my first thought, too! I guess, like most of you, I'm not too surprised that there is yet another doping scandel. I wondered out loud to my boss and my SO regarding Vino's suddenly *found* energy... but hoped against hope that it would not be true!
I'm thinking (as is my SO) that maybe the only ones not doping are the ones not winning! Please please please let George not be!

[Grog]

On another cycling forum (French language) I visit, a Paris guy posted this message. I'm quickly translating:

"For the moment in France it's boiling big bubbles but we know little. Most of the cyclists here know very well that 98% of the racers dope and that those who are caught, it's because of the "soigneur"'s [team "nurse"] error. For us who have been in the cycling milieu for years (my great-uncle was a bike constructor and had a pro team), WE KNOW. Whatever the commentators say, we're not dupes. The dope in European cycling is at all levels, even in village crits where the price is a bunch of groceries from local shopkeepers, there are lots of them everywhere at the beginning and end of the season.

There is also doping in Sunday morning rides, to follow a group of younger guys who ride faster and further...

One must remember the heads of racers getting at the top of the "cols" (passes) thirty years ago, looking like agonizing old men, whereas today the champions climb with their mouth closed (they breathe through their ears maybe?)."

[sundial]

I've heard that the human body just can't take that kind of punishment day in and day out without doping. I mean, think about the longest ride you took and how you felt spent. You needed a rest day between right? How is it then that these boys can ride 100 miles some days back to back and recover quickly without some kind of drug?

[DrBee]

The news about Vino is maddening! I know many of these guys find ways around the rules and dope in all sorts of ways, but I still hold out hope that someday they'll be clean. I certainly wasn't surprised by the news - between the time trial and yesterday's stage - there really wasn't any other explanation. Sad, but true. It's so disheartening to think of these guys sitting there knowingly having someone else's blood pumped into their veins... just to have a good day in the race. Blech! :mad:

Let's just keep hoping that Contador and others are clean and enjoy the rest of the Tour. There are still gifted cyclists out there. I may be naive, but I do believe that.

[ridebikeme]

The ironic part of this is the fact that Vino was one of the first to sign the agreement before the tour! And on top of that, in the agreement it states that along with a two year suspension, they also have to pay their entire (for the year)salary to the anti doping agency. So tell me, what do they gain if they are found guilty???

[emily_in_nc]

I was shocked when my DH told me this news today. I was pulling so hard for Vino in the TT and then again yesterday. I did mention to DH yesterday, though, that his comeback after a terrible day reminded me an awful lot of Floyd last year, and I even said "I sure hope they don't find out he's doping".

Sheesh....I am really sick of this. It's sad and disappointing to see our heros fall, one by one. :( :mad:

Emily

[BadgerGirl]

I love Contador, too, but remember he was already implicated in the Operacion Puerto scandal. I have no illusions that any of them are clean.

I hate to condemn all cycling athletes because of a few cheaters. Just like not everyone on the street I deal with is a criminal. It is flawed to think like that. If you read several articles about Operation Puerto, you will see that the investigators rushed to conclusions about riders possibly involved in it. Contador was one of the riders the investigations committee said they rushed to judgement and cleared him. Does that mean he is not doping, no. Does that mean he is doping, no. Think and say what you want because that is just my opinion.

[Eden]

Any molecular biologists out there? I was just thinking about the flow cytometry test and with the way it is done I was wondering if a high white count or the presence of antibiotics could yield a false positive. I have heard that Vinokurov's knee is infected.

[Zen]

It's been reported at CNN and in cyling news. Why would anyone want to maintain suspense at finding this out?

Some of us (well, one for sure) were doing other stuff today, I only had one chance to use a computer.

It is unimaginable how they can do this day after day. They did it in 1903 without doping, if a rider has any moral standards and a true love of the sport for sports sake they wouldn't do it. I just don't get it, they're not exactly making pro football salaries.

[spazzdog]

I am absolutely and irrevocably disgusted...

Yeah, I know doping is far and wide. What gets me most is the arrogance and deceit. To sign an agreement to cycle clean knowing you're not, knowing that if you place anywhere near the top you'll be tested and randomly if you're in "the field"... I'm really pissed.

I'm thinking of following a new sport. What're the chances that shuffleboarders or croquet players dope?

It will be really interesting to hear the 4 muskateers take on this come 3:30 am (6:30 ET)... I'm imagining Phil Liggett will be be spewing all sorts of UK invective (like he doesn't personally know who's doping).

spazz

[Zen]

I should add that I think Floyd was framed simply because he's an American.

I posted something awhile back (and it ticked someone off) that said "I blame the French"

I don't entirely blame the French on this one.

[smilingcat]

Well, I had a whole day to let the news sink in. I'm really disappointed with the scandal.

Who knows why Vinokurov did what he did. I can't second guess. Maybe when he signed the agreement about doping, his heart was in the right place. Maybe when he was shattered the other day, he panicked and doped so that he wont jepardize next year... Sad. I do feel sad for Vinokurov for his desperation to stay in the game by doping.

Yup, the temptation is just too great for some of them. Honesty and moral value is severely lacking these days...:( :( :(

Smilingcat

[RoadRaven]

Gutted? Yes

Disappointed? Yes

But wait... what happened to innnocent til proven guilty
He gets a second chance in case the lab f'ed up

He's requested the second test... shouldn't the condemnations wait until that is announced positive?

(And in the meantime all wish fervently that its all just a BIG mistake)


Oh, and can anyone answer Eden's question about the possibility of an infected knee affecting his blood chemistry?

[emily_in_nc]

Some of us (well, one for sure) were doing other stuff today, I only had one chance to use a computer.

I initially thought the Astana news was a "spoiler" too, when my DH emailed me the news about Vino yesterday. Then I remembered it was a tour rest day, so there was nothing to spoil....except the tour for me, since I am/was a huge Vino fan.

:(

Emily

[emily_in_nc]

Who knows why Vinokurov did what he did. I can't second guess. Maybe when he signed the agreement about doping, his heart was in the right place. Maybe when he was shattered the other day, he panicked and doped so that he wont jepardize next year...

His positive test came after Saturday's time trial, before he blew up on Sunday....not after his win in the Pyrenees. So, if he did it, he did it before he had his really bad day.

Emily

[Bron]

It is unimaginable how they can do this day after day. They did it in 1903 without doping, if a rider has any moral standards and a true love of the sport for sports sake they wouldn't do it. I just don't get it, they're not exactly making pro football salaries.

Alas, they did dope even at the beginning of the 20th century - alcohol and ether to dull the pain were supposedly quite popular (as were other tactics like leaving broken glass on the road to burst opponents' tyres).

It still makes me very sad - I thought that this was going to be a clean Tour.

[IFjane]

From VeloNews's live feed from today's stage:

"News reports today suggest that the tests following Vinokourov's win on Monday also show signs of homologous blood doping. Neither positive has been confirmed by their respective B samples, but that has to be considered to be a bad sign."

[IFjane]

"bad doping result?!?!?! Today's l'Equipe is reporting that an as-of-yet-unnamed rider has tested positive for testosterone, following last Thursday's stage to Montpellier. We have no information on who that might be, so we will not speculate. There were eight riders tested that day, in case you're wondering.
Robert Hunter (stage winner)
Michael Rasmussen (yellow jersey)
Maxim Iglinskiy
Erik Zabel
Lilian Jegou
Cristian Morini
Kim Kirchen
Patxi Vila...

The UCI
will be making an announcement later today regarding the reported testosterone positive from the 11th stage last week."

[Aggie_Ama]

I am not sure what to make of the Vino incident. I am very disappointed but believe his results shouldn't have been leaked but that is how the doping tests go.

This is a pretty funny quote from him though (from Cyclingnews.com):

Vinokourov did manage a joke about his situation. "I heard that I made a transfusion with my father's blood," Vinokourov said. "That's absurd, I can tell you that with his blood, I would have tested positive for vodka

[Kalidurga]

I saw that quote at cyclingnews, too. It's frustrating in that he's denying it, but also saying "...I don't want to waste time in proving my innocence." Obviously, nothing is definitive until the B sample comes back (and possibly not even then), but this is beginning to sound like Ullrich's situation (I've never doped, but no, I won't provide anything that would help to prove my innocence). Time to take a deep breath, then sit back and just wait for the B sample and Vino's response, if any, to that.

[missymaya]

I don't have cable or any of that and so when I visited my sister, who does have cable, I got to watch Vino do amazingly well on the time trial,especially after the hard times he has had for this tour. I thought it was great and then I read this morning about the positive test and was disheartened. Granted, we have a second sample to wait for, but even still, these guys should know better.It hurts me to see such great talent be based on something false.

But, with all of what's going on, I still love the sport and probably always will. I love watching it, reading it, and doing it. Maybe the sport needs to hit the lows to get the ones who are true to it and to change and to find those who have the talent to ride without needing to cheat, maybe not. I don't have the answers and I can't solve the problem, but I know I can try to help. I know that I will support those who promote a good, clean sport and work hard for the win instead of cheating.

[Eden]

Alas, they did dope even at the beginning of the 20th century - alcohol and ether to dull the pain were supposedly quite popular (as were other tactics like leaving broken glass on the road to burst opponents' tyres).

It still makes me very sad - I thought that this was going to be a clean Tour.

Yeah - I have a history of the tour - It's NEVER been a "clean" tour. Drugs and other methods of cheating have been there since the beginning. The original organizer threatened to cancel it forever many times over the problems. Amphetemines were the drug of choice many years ago. Even the great Eddy Merkx had a suspension over amphetamine use! And think about what would happen today if anyone won all three jerseys (as Eddy did) - no one would believe it was a clean win, no matter how much testing proved it.

[Running Mommy]

Watching the end today (no I won't spoil it) I had to wonder "Is HE clean??" All I can do is pray that my boy Levi is playing by the rules. I really believe he is, but these guys are cracking my trust.. sigh..
Yeah, I felt like crying yesterday too. And I'm not even really a Vino fan. Just the whole mess!

[BikeMomma]

"bad doping result?!?!?! Today's l'Equipe is reporting that an as-of-yet-unnamed rider has tested positive for testosterone, following last Thursday's stage to Montpellier. We have no information on who that might be, so we will not speculate. There were eight riders tested that day, in case you're wondering.
Robert Hunter (stage winner)
Michael Rasmussen (yellow jersey)
Maxim Iglinskiy
Erik Zabel
Lilian Jegou
Cristian Morini
Kim Kirchen
Patxi Vila...

The UCI
will be making an announcement later today regarding the reported testosterone positive from the 11th stage last week."
It's Cristian Moreni of the Confidis team. The team is being allowed to stay.
Here's the story: http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12930.0.html

He's denying his right to a B-sample, so that's as good as an admission. :rolleyes:

~BikeMomma

[Zen]

Boonen is p.o.'ed (http://www.vrtnieuws.net/cm/flandersnews.be/Sports/070725_boonen_interview)

[alpinerabbit]

Any molecular biologists out there? I was just thinking about the flow cytometry test and with the way it is done I was wondering if a high white count or the presence of antibiotics could yield a false positive. I have heard that Vinokurov's knee is infected.

Show me a description of the test and I'll try and find out. I am a molecular biologist but have not seen articles on the method.


It is unimaginable how they can do this day after day. They did it in 1903 without doping, if a rider has any moral standards and a true love of the sport for sports sake they wouldn't do it. I just don't get it, they're not exactly making pro football salaries.

a) in 1903 they already knew how to use alcohol, cocaine, even strychnine.

b) because they are not making enough money in a couple years to retire for the rest of their lives, they are desperate for wins.



Originally Posted by HappyAnika
I should add that I think Floyd was framed simply because he's an American.I posted something awhile back (and it ticked someone off) that said "I blame the French"
I don't entirely blame the French on this one.
Yeah it ticks me off too. Yes the lab screws up, others do too, but come effin' on.... JUST because he was an American? V is Kazakh, Chicken is danish, and Contador is spanish. So frame them all so a French guy can win....?

Doping is in this sport like a cancer and it has been for the past 100 years.....



Edit.

I checked out the method.

Briefly, the test uses a panel of antibodies against many (>10) red blood cell (RBC) antigens. When any of these antibodies reacts with the RBC antigens ..... the idea is that the presence of the RBC antigens varies in any population of humans and thus a homologous transfusion can be detected in a person receiving one unit of blood

So the antibodies are specific for red blood cells. white blood cells due to infection would not skew the result and frankly, if his infection was that strong, he would not be winning time trials. Same for Antibiotics. They don't react with the antibodies in question.
Could V claim chimaerism like Tyler H.? Apparently, one out of 8000 normal people and 8% of twins are chimeric. But this is something that every rider could have been tested for on his own free will after the H. case.

[bikerchick68]

WOW... that article with Boonen is something else... he throws down Rasmussen as well... said he believes Rasmussen is doped too...

yeah, Boonen's quotes are BEYOND PO'd...

[Eden]

Could V claim chimaerism like Tyler H.? Apparently, one out of 8000 normal people and 8% of twins are chimeric. But this is something that every rider could have been tested for on his own free will after the H. case.

If he makes that claim then IMO it would be very stupid - at least some of his tests should have detected something wrong, not just one. It would make more sense to be like Lance, don't try to make up crazy excuses, keep your cool, keep quiet and wait for the B sample. If he knows the B sample will yield the same results he should just out with it and confess.

[alpinerabbit]

yeah, Boonen's quotes are BEYOND PO'd...

He'll shut up when he's caught too.

I don't believe he's clean either, none of Quickstep, which used to be Mapei, and they've found incriminating evidence from the Mapei era.

[smilingcat]

Witl all the bad news, and hoping its just a bad nightmare, I'm taking a break and taking a snooze.

Smilingcat

[jeannierides]

SmilingCat, thanks for the laugh. I needed it!:p

[short cut sally]

I watched the re-caps last night, with every so many minutes the new flash of Vino and the whole team withdrawing was a bummer for me. I made sure I got up to watch the 630am start today so I could get caught up. I was up at 5, (anticipation was getting the best of me) did some housework, then got on here to see and read all the updates before I watched it. SHould've gotten on here last night so I wouldn't have to had to get up so early, got just as much if not more from you gals than I did from the announcers this am. I will see what tonight brings, I only watched the opening, as Dh and I watch the tour nightly.

[Zen]

b) because they are not making enough money in a couple years to retire for the rest of their lives, they are desperate for wins.



I doubt even Lance made enough money from cycling to retire on tour/cycling winnings. Even if a rider is well known they'd still have to do endorsements, clothing or sell some type of coaching program to make a living.

[Kalidurga]

The Jambon Report for Stage 16 (http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=11483) over at dailypeloton.com is a good one. Locutus makes a good case for all of us fans to continue supporting cycling as a sport, despite the crap that's happened in the last two Tours.

[Starfish]

So what do you all think of Boonen's suggestion that dopers get a lifetime ban?

[Kalidurga]

So what do you all think of Boonen's suggestion that dopers get a lifetime ban?

Phil Ligget's also suggested that in the past. I think that if they were to go to such an extreme, they'd darned well better get some more reliable test protocols in place. I think the idea of permanently banning someone when there's any question of their innocence would not be right.

[Zen]

So what do you all think of Boonen's suggestion that dopers get a lifetime ban?

That's a tough one and everyone is going to answer using their own values/morals/justice scale.

[edit- After reading Tam's post I want to preface my answer by saying it takes place in fantasy land and there's no doubt about the validity of lab results]

Part of me wants to say that everyone deserves a second chance and there was pressure from someone in team management to dope. They didn't go to the drug store and ask for a bottle of EPO.

Then there's the part of me that channels Nancy Reagan and says 'just say no". They weren't tied up and injected.

Maybe a "two strikes" rule.

[maillotpois]

Watching the end today (no I won't spoil it) I had to wonder "Is HE clean??"

Um. Apparently not...

:eek:

[onimity]

So what do you all think of Boonen's suggestion that dopers get a lifetime ban?

I think it's over the top. I think it's *all* over the top, frankly.

I can't imagine having a blood transfusion or taking substances that could kill me to enhance my athletic performance. It just doesn't matter that much to me; I exercise for fun and to be more fit, not to be better than anyone else.

For athletes that are competitive, especially at top levels, any advantage that may increase performance is irresistible to many. I don't think it is unique to cycling, I don't think it's anything new, and I don't think that it's ever going to change, the tactics will just change as existing tactics are discovered/detected.

I have to say that I'm more than a little horrified to see the ends these guys will go to for a small performance increase, and I'm really irritated with the athletes that act horrified at the suggestion of doping when their own records/histories are more than a bit suspect. A good number are probably just ahead of the curve and using a tactic that is not yet on the radar of the people testing.

The near-hysteria over doping in cycling is really interesting to me, because we happily ignore the same epidemic in other sports, and it really isn't anything new. The problem IMO is that we as a society increasingly hold athletes in such high regard, we idolize them and look to them as role models rather than enjoying the sport for what it is, and when we discover that they are not, in fact, super-human, we shun them and discredit their every accomplishment as tainted. We want an exciting race, we reward the 'heroes' of sport with fame and riches and then we act surprised and appalled that they will risk everything for a slight advantage? I'm not saying that I support cheating of any sort, or that races/organizations should tolerate it, but I just don't think it's really that earth-shattering.

Even if we keep the riders in solitary confinement when not racing, close the course of races to spectators and give everyone standard-issue bikes/jerseys/shoes/food, there is no way to prevent someone from finding a way to get an 'unfair' advantage.

I respect Vino for the way he got back on his bike after that crash; that was mental fortitude and a fighting spirit and I don't think that the doping takes away from that. But it galls me to hear him, and others in similar situations, deny the claims and suggest that the science that caught him is flawed in really absurd ways. That's just spineless. He knew what he was signing up for, he took a huge chance and he got caught. I might still have some respect for him if he'd come out and said it that simply.

My two cents.

Anne