Does anyone sell womens specific frames only?

[skunk]

I'm trying to build a campy womens bike but I can't find anyone that will sell me a frame only. I'm looking for something like a Trek 1600 WSD framset.

[Kimmyt]

I wonder if you find a local Trek dealer they could order you in a frame only.

K.

[mudmucker]

As Kimmyt says, seems to me either the Trek dealer or if you have a good LBS - they would do that. I actually was at my LBS today with that same question. For me I was interested in the WSD Specialized S Works or a Ruby Pro frame and building up with other components I have and would upgrade to. I know that they sell an S Works module and the LBS said that getting a frame of any sort shouldn't be a problem. You might have to hunt and peck a little more if you are having problems but you are the consumer - seems to me you should find someone to accomodate you.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

What frame material are you wanting...steel, carbon, ti, aluminum?....

[skunk]

What frame material are you wanting...steel, carbon, ti, aluminum?....

Al or low end carbon frame.

[emily_in_nc]

Have you looked at Terry?

[Trek420]

....and Luna :D

[rij73]

Once you know the geometry you are looking for, there are deals to be had on Ebay. I would try your best to go through a local shop, but sometimes it's just not possible...

[KnottedYet]

Kona sells women's frames, too, but they only have a couple.

My bike shop has a ton of bare frames for sale, but I've never checked them out.

[skunk]

Luna and Terry are both out of my price range. I'm looking to spend no more than $1500 for a complete bike with at least 105/veloce components. Campy is preferred.

I have a lot of spare parts lying around so I can put together a veloce or centaur bike for not too much if I can just get my hands on a frame.

[KnottedYet]

Do any of the Soma or Surly frames meet your needs? Their websites have very detailed descriptions of the geometries. I know you'd rather have aluminum or carbon, and they are steel, but the frame prices are very reasonable and could keep you well within your budget. (a nice new Soma frame and fork would only use about half your budget)

You might also contact a bike shop that sells used frames ( like www.recycledcycles.com ) and see if they have anything with the right geometry and in al or carbon.

And there's always Salsa or Kona. I've seen lovely build-ups on Salsa frames, and had a Kona that I really liked even though the Al frame jittered the heck out of me.

[emily_in_nc]

I got a never-built carbon Aegis Swift (WSD) frame and fork on Ebay a few years ago for $699. At the time, the frame/fork combo was running $2100 new. So I got a real deal, though my frame was older (1999, purchased in 2003) - a leftover from a small California bike shop. If you know the geometry you need, I agree that good deals can be found on eBay, especially if you're patient. Triskeliongirl here on TE got a Terry Isis frame (steel) on eBay for $100 last year and built an amazing bike around it!

Emily

[rij73]

Luna and Terry are both out of my price range. I'm looking to spend no more than $1500 for a complete bike with at least 105/veloce components. Campy is preferred.

I suggest you check out GVH Bikes online. Their prices on build kits are hard to beat, and they will even assemble the bike for just $75. They are building my bike as we speak. With your tight budget, it might be the way to go. I'm all for supporting the LBS, but sometimes you just can't pass up a great deal.

I picked up a beautiful used carbon frame for $640 on Ebay, had it shipped directly to GVH for a nice full 105 build. The whole deal is costing me exactly $1700 with all the shipping and every part.

If you get a nice used frameset on Ebay or elsewhere for $500 or so, you could get the same thing done in your price range...

[rij73]

This frame is one of the best deals on the internet. Not women's specific, but very conservative top tube measurements.

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=23561&subcategory_ID=3020

That frame plus a Veloce build from GVH will run you in the $1400 range with shipping. You can subtract the spare parts you already have from that price and get a really good deal!

[Trek420]

Luna and Terry are both out of my price range. I'm looking to spend no more than $1500 for a complete bike with at least 105/veloce components. Campy is preferred.

I have a lot of spare parts lying around so I can put together a veloce or centaur bike for not too much if I can just get my hands on a frame.

If you check the Terry website there is a board where people post used Terry bikes for sale. You could check that or even post that you're looking for a frame.

Another option is look for a bike used from any venue you look for used bikes, and strip it down and build it up. If the price of the entire bike is in your budget, there you go.

I'm having a freewheel built up from a Motobecane I found in a nearby dumpster (yes I did everything under the sun to make sure it was not hot).

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Luna makes only steel bikes. She wants aluminum or one of the less expensive carbon frames.

[skunk]

I just looked over the Kona Lisa Rd and they are on sale on a couple of online shops for $1200 - $1300. I think I might get her that if I can't find a frame, it has pretty nice specs :)

[ridebikeme]

Although this is not a WSD... I have a Cannondale CAAD 7 frame and fork. It has never been built up, carbon fork, and weighs 2.9 lbs! I'd sell it for $700. a size 50cm

[SadieKate]

skunk, since no one has asked yet, why do you want WSD?

[SJCzar]

My WSD Madone frame was ordered by my LBS and built up in their shop. Mine was a Project One paint job, but I'm fairly certain it can be done with a stock frame as well.

[skunk]

skunk, since no one has asked yet, why do you want WSD?

My girlfriend is a girl so I assume she'd be better off with WSD geometry. I don't want her to hate cycling because the bike geometry is to aggressive.


My WSD Madone frame was ordered by my LBS and built up in their shop. Mine was a Project One paint job, but I'm fairly certain it can be done with a stock frame as well.

I know it can be done for the higher end frames but for the low end frames I don't think everyone will do it and I'm not even sure if Trek sells just 1000 or 1600 frames. I'm having a shop look into that right now. The shop owner told me he might be able to get one through warranty. We'll see what happens.

[SadieKate]

My girlfriend is a girl so I assume she'd be better off with WSD geometry. I don't want her to hate cycling because the bike geometry is to aggressive.Nope, not true. Last I checked, WSD has to do with fit not performance.

How are you determining size and fit of the bike? WSD is not for all wimmen-types.

Ooh, boy, have I just opened a can of worms.

[skunk]

Nope, not true. Last I checked, WSD has to do with fit not performance.

How are you determining size and fit of the bike? WSD is not for all wimmen-types.

Ooh, boy, have I just opened a can of worms.

Doesn't a mens frame have a longer top tube than it's equivalent womens frame? Which would mean she's lower and more stretched out? I had her fitted on a Specialized Dolce with a 51 top tube and it's been a struggle to even find a mens frame/bike with a 51 top tube.

[SadieKate]

Longer top tube doesn't mean lower. It just means longer. Unless I've missed it, this is the first time you've mentioned her size which, I agree, can limit your choices. You'll need to actually look at geometry, the drawings, to really get an idea of headtube length and necessary rise of the stem to get the saddle/bar drop.

There's lots of bikes out there with 51cm top tubes but maybe not low end AL and carbon as a frame-only. Which begs the question why that material?

It's sounding like she's new to cycling? You want her to be comfortable, have fun and fall in love with cycling? Sorry, I'm just reading between the lines here.

Have you considered something like a Gunnar Sport?
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/sport.php

That would be a fabulous first bike with a Campy build. At least one of our TE members has a Roadie and I've heard her (and others) comment on the comfort over and over.

[skunk]

Longer top tube doesn't mean more stretched out. It just means longer. Unless I've missed it, this is the first time you've mentioned her size which, I agree, can limit your choices. You'll need to actually look at geometry, the drawings, to really get an idea of headtube length and necessary rise of the stem to get the saddle/bar drop.

There's lots of bikes out there with 51cm top tubes but maybe not low end AL and carbon as a frame-only. Which begs the question why that material?

It's sounding like she's new to cycling? You want her to be comfortable, have fun and fall in love with cycling? Sorry, I'm just reading between the lines here.

Have you considered something like a Gunnar Sport?
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/sport.php

That would be a fabulous first bike with a Campy build. At least one of our TE members has a Roadie and I've heard her (and others) comment on the comfort over and over.

Doesn't longer make you more stretched out since your arms are going to be further away from your butt (if all other measurements stay the same)?

I myself prefer Al,Ti or Carbon. I'm not a big fan of steel, and it's not easy to come across cheap Ti bikes with womens geometry so thats why I'm looking for Al or Carbon.

[SadieKate]

Sorry about that. I edited my post to say what I meant. Longer doesn't mean lower.*

And steel can be just as wonderful as the other materials and in your price range provide a lot more options. What kind of ride does she like?

*PS - if you don't quote the entire thread directly above your response, those of us who type too fast and don't proofread won't have our mistakes documented for perpetuity.:)

[skunk]

Sorry about that. I edited my post to say what I meant. Longer doesn't mean lower.*

And steel can be just as wonderful as the other materials and in your price range provide a lot more options. What kind of ride does she like?

*PS - if you don't quote the entire thread directly above your response, those of us who type too fast and don't proofread won't have our mistakes documented for perpetuity.:)

:)

I found a 50 cm 2005 Specialized S-Works E5 frame thats on ebay right now for $100 that has 52.5 cm top tube. I'm not sure about the geometry though since it's a race bike.

I don't know what type of riding she likes since she hasn't ridden a bike in a long long time. I'd assume that she prefers a relaxed ride with minimal traffic and no climbs.

[SadieKate]

"kind of ride" - as in the type of ride the frame material can provide.

Many of the manufacturers will keep old frame spec info on their websites.

1.5 cm is a lot of difference in reach. You'll need to take into account stem length, the reach of the bar and the length of the hoods.

[skunk]

"kind of ride" - as in the type of ride the frame material can provide.

Many of the manufacturers will keep old frame spec info on their websites.

1.5 cm is a lot of difference in reach. You'll need to take into account stem length, the reach of the bar and the length of the hoods.

At this point I think she'd want something that was comfortable. The Specialized she tried has a 51.8 top tube and a 12.5 head tube. The E5 has a 52.5 top tube and a 10 head tube. I should be able to match that by getting a shorter stem with a big rise or using spacers. I'll be getting her shallow drop, reach bars with campy shifters.

[Grog]

Just to relieve SK for a moment here...

Just become your girlfriend is, well, a girl, doesn't mean she needs a women-specific bike. Actually, women-specific bikes are just different frames, with different measurements, and a lot of marketing. What she needs is a bike that fits, no? That will depend on the length and size of her various body parts relative to each other, of her ease on the bike, etc. Just because she has not ridden in a while doesn't mean she'll be into comfort or low-traffic or racing or something else. This suggests playing it safe in getting a "simple", not too expensive first bike, yet good enough (avoiding cheap, frustrating components if possible), giving her chances to experiment and to decide what she really wants for her second bike.

I understand that doing things yourself might be a big difference in cost in the end, especially if you have parts at hand, plus: you're pouring a lot of love in the project which I am sure will be noticed :D but I would suggest getting help from people who know their stuff about fitting, and getting her as involved as possible in the process, so she really feels that it's HER bike, and it really fits like it's meant for HER (not for the "generic woman" out there, whoever that is).

Thanks for doing this, we all wish we had a special person building a bike for us. :)

ETA: Although at this stage I'd rather build one myself. :D

[skunk]

Just to relieve SK for a moment here...

Just become your girlfriend is, well, a girl, doesn't mean she needs a women-specific bike. Actually, women-specific bikes are just different frames, with different measurements, and a lot of marketing. What she needs is a bike that fits, no? That will depend on the length and size of her various body parts relative to each other, of her ease on the bike, etc. Just because she has not ridden in a while doesn't mean she'll be into comfort or low-traffic or racing or something else. This suggests playing it safe in getting a "simple", not too expensive first bike, yet good enough (avoiding cheap, frustrating components if possible), giving her chances to experiment and to decide what she really wants for her second bike.

I understand that doing things yourself might be a big difference in cost in the end, especially if you have parts at hand, plus: you're pouring a lot of love in the project which I am sure will be noticed :D but I would suggest getting help from people who know their stuff about fitting, and getting her as involved as possible in the process, so she really feels that it's HER bike, and it really fits like it's meant for HER (not for the "generic woman" out there, whoever that is).

Thanks for doing this, we all wish we had a special person building a bike for us. :)

ETA: Although at this stage I'd rather build one myself. :D

I've been to a couple of shops around me and have yet to find one with great knowledgable service. Most of them don't carry many womens frames and most don't carry mens frames small enough for my girlfriend to try. They tell me to go home, do my research on the internet to figure out what size would fit her and then they can order the bike for me...

My experience so far has been worse than that of buying a car. Stores would rather tell me what I should buy instead of sell me what I want. The worst part is some of these sales people don't seem like they know anything about bikes at all. I understand that these people are trying to make a living but when they try to tell me things like "oh, swapping out ultegra components for 105 won't save you much money" or persistently try to sell me a race bike for a girl who hasn't ridden a bike with gears, I get a little offended and would rather build my own bike.

You are 100% correct in me not wanting to get her a super nice bike but not a total crap bike. This is why I'm looking for a low end frame with medium range components. This way if the frame doesn't fit or she wants to upgrade I can just swap out the frame and I won't lose a big chunk of change.

[SadieKate]

I hear you on LBS frustration. Where are you? Maybe someone can give you a suggestion, even if you have to drive a bit.

May I suggest that your girlfriend test ride a few bikes just to get a sense of what she likes in terms of handling and ride characteristics?

That Specialized is probably too big (remember a lower front end increases the length in addition to just having a long top tube) and could easily have very fast handling. That's one heck of a bike. I haven't ridden it but from the little I've read it could be a handful for a new rider.

Did she like the Dolce? If not, what didn't she like?

One of the reasons I suggested the Gunnar Sport was because of the handling and ride for someone who hasn't been on a bike in a long time, and Gunnars have a great reputation. They're built by Waterford and have an impeccable pedigree. And you can get darn close to the fit of the Dolce.

[Grog]

Wow Skunk! The experience you describe doesn't seem too nice. What state do you live in!?

I understand your frustration too, but I really hope she gets to try some bikes. It will make a world of difference! She has to be a part of that project, otherwise she'll quickly loose interest in it (and you'll be frustrated because of the time and effort you're pouring in this...).

Good luck!

[skunk]

I hear you on LBS frustration. Where are you? Maybe someone can give you a suggestion, even if you have to drive a bit.

Did she like the Dolce? If not, what didn't she like?



I live in Southern California. There are a billion bike stores here but probably only a handful that know what they're doing.

The Dolce was nice, the problem was the store wanted $2200 for it.


Wow Skunk! The experience you describe doesn't seem too nice. What state do you live in!?

I understand your frustration too, but I really hope she gets to try some bikes. It will make a world of difference! She has to be a part of that project, otherwise she'll quickly loose interest in it (and you'll be frustrated because of the time and effort you're pouring in this...).

Good luck!

She's super excited about it just because she wants to get into better shape and going to the gym regularly isn't work for her.

[SadieKate]

Southern California is a pretty big place. Bellflower anywhere near you?

There is a 2005 Dolce on eBay. This is the same year/model I steered a friend toward. She just tootled around on a heavy hybrid but was suddenly motivated to ride a full century. This bike was perfect. Excellent value for the money with good ride and handling.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SPECIALIZED-DOLCE-ELITE-ROAD-BIKE-SHIMANO-105-ULTEGRA_W0QQitemZ270143301271QQihZ017QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[yellow]

Hmmm....methinks you are forgetting about my favorite place to look for that Surly (so far I haven't found it)! Just a sample of what I found in 2 minutes:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/bik/371686689.html

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/bik/371267294.html

NOTE THIS ONE! This is a great entry level bike!
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/bik/371135875.html

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/bik/370460521.html

[Trek420]

Ooh, boy, have I just opened a can of worms.

SK if you open the can o' worms, you have to eat all the worms :p

Skunk, why not invite your girlfriend to TE, that way she can get all fired up about cycling.

We won't tell her that you're building a bike, really. ;)

[skunk]

Hmmm....methinks you are forgetting about my favorite place to look for that Surly (so far I haven't found it)! Just a sample of what I found in 2 minutes:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/bik/371686689.html

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/bik/371267294.html

NOTE THIS ONE! This is a great entry level bike!
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/bik/371135875.html

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/bik/370460521.html

The only problem I have with these bikes and a lot of the ones on ebay are that they're 9 speed.

[SadieKate]

For your price range and her newness to the sport: fit, handling and comfort should take priority. 10 speed won't affect any of this unless the Campy parts you have right now are 10-speed specific so you'll save money. Even then, much of the 9 spd and 10 spd stuff will work together.

[KnottedYet]

+1 on letting your gf try out lots of bikes so she can get a feel for what she likes. It is going to be *her* bike, right? If you post in the California thread, you can ask for shop reccs. Don't limit her options to sizes and top-tubes and materials you think she needs. Cut her loose, and let her experience the joy of riding whatever strikes her fancy! Let her play! There is a wonderous assortment of bikes out there, give her the pleasure of experiencing that! :D Then you can build her the bike of *her* dreams. (or buy the one she falls in love with on a test ride. :p )

WSD isn't a magic bullet. It's just a handy label for a general trend of geometry.

That being said, none of my bikes is "WSD". Let your gf try some bikes. Bikes aren't like underwear: she doesn't HAVE to ride a WSD just because she's a girl.

Edit: Yellow - my Surly just whispered to me that you really need to get a Surly, too. Sending you Surly-vibes!

[yellow]

The only problem I have with these bikes and a lot of the ones on ebay are that they're 9 speed.

9 speed seems to be good enough for many beginning riders. Heck, I even know some very talented riders that ride 8 speed bicycles! sadiekate :rolleyes:

I'm beginning to think you don't really want us to help you but rather want us to run around in cerebral circles while you watch, fascinated. :p I guess we're not really answering your original post, which is about WSD frames, since that's what you seem to think she needs. I'll put in one last plug for you to be a little more flexible re: material, number of speeds, and WSD vs non WSD, and now I'll shut up.

So no, I certainly can't provide any helpful information! :) Good luck and have fun!

[Trek420]

I prefer the term TrekSD to WSD.

Your bike doesn't have to be custom, it just has to fit YOU and frame is just one tiny aspect of that, it's important for sure but not the only thing.

Hides subliminal message, everyone needs a Surly :)

[skunk]

For your price range and her newness to the sport: fit, handling and comfort should take priority. 10 speed won't affect any of this unless the Campy parts you have right now are 10-speed specific so you'll save money. Even then, much of the 9 spd and 10 spd stuff will work together.

It's not so much that 9 speed isn't good enough for her it's just that 9 speed is pretty much obsolete and almost impossible to find parts for unless its DA9. Finding a new 9 speed 105 cassette is a lot harder than finding a 10 speed 105 cassette.

[SadieKate]

Wow, you must use a different internet than I do. 30 seconds found these from very reputable dealers.

http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=45167&cat=55&brand=226
http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/c/COMPCASS9RDSH

There's also a little company called SRAM that makes Shimano-compatible cassettes, as do Miche and IRD, perhaps you've heard of it?

I'm with yellow as far as leaving the conversation. You appear more concerned with bling or some mind game than making your girlfriend happy and getting her on a bike. You get her there, you can upgrade any frame to 10 spd down the road. Upgrading girlfriends is a whole different ballgame.

[Starfish]

SK, I love you. ;)

I second the notion of letting GF be highly involved in picking her own ride, even if she is a newbie. Personal experience story there for me. Let her control her buying experience. She will be that much more comfortable, then, going to LBS alone after she has the bike, and getting educated and making her own decisions, so her riding experience empowers her, rather than creates perceived dependence on you for her bike know-how.

And, um, as I type, my LBS is putting a new 9 spd cassette on my bike, which happens to not be a WSD, but is 105.

[Trek420]

you can upgrade any frame to 10 spd down the road. Upgrading girlfriends is a whole different ballgame.

And it costs more and takes longer too! :D And as I type this my LBS is rebuilding my MTB which has 8 speed...after powdercoating the frame.

Log off and get her on the bike that fits her, you can even change frame color later on.

[Triskeliongirl]

FYI, both my bikes are a 9 spd ultegra/XT mix by choice. I have no problem finding 9 spd replacement parts. I chose 9 spd so I can mix road and mountain parts, to let me use a compact double in front, with mountain gearing in back for mountains. Heck, you can still find 5 spd parts. Try someone like Harris Cyclery.

You are also ignoring a critical fit factor by focussing only on top tube length and not seat tube angle, both of which effect reach.

This is how the seat tube angle stuff works. All you have to understand is that every 1 degree increase in seat tube angle pushes the seat tube closer to the bars, so while this can be used to reduce the top tube length, it doesn't change the reach, because the saddle then needs to go back 1 cm to get the same KOP position. So in other words, the REACH ON the following bikes are identical:

BIKE STA TT

1 73 52
2 74 51
3 75 50
4 76 49

The problem is that someone might purchase bike 4, thinking it has the shortest top tube, without realizing that it is identical to the other choices. For ME, the problem with too steep a seat tube is that even with the saddle all the way back on the rails, my knee is too far forward of the pedal axle. So, as she test rides bikes, note both the seat tube angle and top tube length (assuming she has adequate clearance over the top tube and can get the bars to the desired height easily). Once you know her ideal geometry, its easier to shop around on ebay. I got a never been built terry isis frame that sold new as a complete bike for $2000 for only $100 on ebay, and then just swapped all the relatively new parts from an older rusting bike to make a helluva sweet ride. This doesn't have to be expensive, but you do need to know what frame geometry you are looking for.

[Kathi]

[QUOTE=Triskeliongirl;222879]

This is how the seat tube angle stuff works. All you have to understand is that every 1 degree increase in seat tube angle pushes the seat tube closer to the bars, so while this can be used to reduce the top tube length, it doesn't change the reach, because the saddle then needs to go back 1 cm to get the same KOP position. So in other words, the REACH ON the following bikes are identical:

BIKE STA TT

1 73 52
2 74 51
3 75 50
4 76 49

QUOTE]


Keep in mind every individual is different. With a 74.5 or 75 sta my saddles are forward because I have a short femur. My custom frame has a 74.5 sta and a zero degree seatpost and my saddle is forward to accomodate the KOPS position. I have a mtn bike with a 72.5 sta and I feel like I'm riding a recumbent because my knee angle is so far off center.

Ideally, I could use a sta of 76 degrees.

[Triskeliongirl]

Keep in mind every individual is different. With a 74.5 or 75 sta my saddles are forward because I have a short femur. My custom frame has a 74.5 sta and a zero degree seatpost and my saddle is forward to accomodate the KOPS position. I have a mtn bike with a 72.5 sta and I feel like I'm riding a recumbent because my knee angle is so far off center.

Ideally, I could use a sta of 76 degrees.

Of course, but not sure if you are arguing or not that the combination of sta and tt length determines reach. My point is that you cannot only look at TT length when comparing 2 bikes. I agree with you that the range of acceptable sta's is also highly individual. I need something very slack (ideally 72) while clearly you need something very steep (ideally 76), just to be able to get KOPs to work with the available saddles and seatposts. You have to look at all of these factors to determine if a frame is or isn't going to work. FYI, maybe Kathi could try one of those forward seatposts they sell for time trial bikes for her mtn bike with the slack sta http://www.gottaridebikes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PDP0002&Category_Code=PDP&Product_Count=1

[skunk]

Wow, you must use a different internet than I do. 30 seconds found these from very reputable dealers.

http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=45167&cat=55&brand=226
http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/c/COMPCASS9RDSH

There's also a little company called SRAM that makes Shimano-compatible cassettes, as do Miche and IRD, perhaps you've heard of it?

I'm with yellow as far as leaving the conversation. You appear more concerned with bling or some mind game than making your girlfriend happy and getting her on a bike. You get her there, you can upgrade any frame to 10 spd down the road. Upgrading girlfriends is a whole different ballgame.

A cassette might have been a poor example but 10 speed stuff is much more readily available than 9 speed or 8 speed. And as the years go by it will be harder and harder to come by 9 speed parts.

I've been through this bike newbie phase myself and have learned that once you start riding you'll want to upgrade to something beyond sora/tiagra/mirage/xenon. I would like to have something mid level to begin with that I can keep for a long time. I guess it's a gamble for me since I don't know if she'll stick with it but it's a gamble I'm willing to take.

We're heading out to a local trek dealer this afternoon to check out their inventory so hopefully they'll have something that fits her.

[skunk]

KOP isn't the only way to fit a bike.

[Kathi]

KOP isn't the only way to fit a bike.

No, KOPS is not the only way but is very important. Your body tells you when something is not right with the fit, it seeks it's natural position. Before I had a good fitting done my saddles were centered and I had seat posts with setbacks. I couldn't figure out why but I intuitively kept moving forward. I had more power but riding on the nose was very uncomfortable. Because my seat posts had setbacks, the saddles hurt because I was moving to far forward so I tipped the saddles down, it was the only way I could ride the bikes comfortably. No one bothered to look at the position of my knees. I was simply to far from the center of the bike.

I have been riding since 1981 when there were no bikes for small women, have suffered on improperly fitting bikes and gave up on the shops and tried to fit myself. I figured out that I needed a steeper sta but couldn't figure out the position of the saddle and that I needed a zero degree seat post. I also didn't realize that my handlebars were place 4 cm to low, that took a professional bike fitter to tell me.

Since I've been riding I've had 3 mtn bikes and 5 road bikes. Of the 8 bikes 1 mtn bike (my Titus) and 1 road bike (custom) fits well. Both bikes were fitted by knowledgeable fitters.

Please start your friend off with a well fitting bike. It's more important than components or frame material. If you do it right the first time the bike will last her a long time. And it's easier and cheaper than trying to make an ill-fitting bike fit.

[Kathi]

Of course, but not sure if you are arguing or not that the combination of sta and tt length determines reach. My point is that you cannot only look at TT length when comparing 2 bikes. I agree with you that the range of acceptable sta's is also highly individual. I need something very slack (ideally 72) while clearly you need something very steep (ideally 76), just to be able to get KOPs to work with the available saddles and seatposts. You have to look at all of these factors to determine if a frame is or isn't going to work. FYI, maybe Kathi could try one of those forward seatposts they sell for time trial bikes for her mtn bike with the slack sta http://www.gottaridebikes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PDP0002&Category_Code=PDP&Product_Count=1

Thanks, but I have a good mtn bike that fits. I still have the Voodoo but it is mostly ridden to the store (1mile) and by visitors.

[Triskeliongirl]

By KOPS I mean getting whatever the optimum knee over pedal position is for the rider right. In my case I actually prefer it if my knee is 1 cm behind the pedal axle. But, my points were that you need to consider reach as a comb. of STA and TT length, and also, as reiterated by Kathi, you need to be sure the STA will allow whatever the riders appropriate KOP position is to be established. Small women are more sensitive to all this crap, cuz manufacturers mess more with frame angles on smaller sized bikes so they can outfit the bike with 700cc wheels. If the bike doesn't fit, your GF will not like cylcing, its as simple as that.

[skunk]

Keith Bontrager wrote a pretty good article busting the KOPS myth.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

[Trek420]

..... busting the KOPS myth.....

Alrighty then, I guess you've won because that's just the end of that concept :rolleyes:

No system really other than a great bike shop and club, I'm just working on my 5th custom bike.

[SadieKate]

Oh, girls, don't waste your energy. He knows what he knows and it's all about him, not his girlfriend.

Andy Pruitt uses KOPS, but what would he know.

[skunk]

Alrighty then, I guess you've won because that's just the end of that concept :rolleyes:

No system really other than a great bike shop and club, I'm just working on my 5th custom bike.

Did you gals even read the article? KOPS is a good place to start but it doesn't work for everyone. In my opinion proper weight distribution is more important than having your knee over the spindle.

[SadieKate]

My girlfriend is a girl so I assume she'd be better off with WSD geometry. I don't want her to hate cycling because the bike geometry is to aggressive.

Of course we know KOPS is only a place to start, just like we know WSD isn't for all women.

skunk, why are you here? You have yet to acknowledge anything anyone has offered. You refuse to tell us where you live so we can provide shop recommendations. It pretty much sounds like you just want to throw your weight around and have us be your personal shoppers.

We're trying to help you be a hero to your girlfriend which means getting her involved in the decision, but you don't discuss anything anyone has offered. You just refute without the back-up.

Just a guess, but I think we know women better than you do. There's an awful lot of knowledge on this forum if you'd choose to be receptive.

[skunk]

Of course we know KOPS is only a place to start, just like we know WSD isn't for all women.

skunk, why are you here? You have yet to acknowledge anything anyone has offered. You refuse to tell us where you live so we can provide shop recommendations. It pretty much sounds like you just want to throw your weight around and have us be your personal shoppers.

We're trying to help you be a hero to your girlfriend which means getting her involved in the decision, but you don't discuss anything anyone has offered. You just refute without the back-up.

Just a guess, but I think we know women better than you do. There's an awful lot of knowledge on this forum if you'd choose to be receptive.

In post #34 I said I live in Southern California.

I have checked out every bike that has been mentioned in this thread. Locating a dealer for some of these brands on the other hand will take some time. So before I do that I can't really say anything about them.

I went to another local shop today to and to my surprise it doesn't stock any womens bikes and only had one trek 1000 that was slightly too big for her.

My goal is still to buy a frame unless I come across a great deal on a complete bike. I have a shop in Arizona looking into getting me a low end trek frame so I should hear back from them soon.

[Grog]

I have checked out every bike that has been mentioned in this thread. Locating a dealer for some of these brands on the other hand will take some time. So before I do that I can't really say anything about them.


In the meantime you can probably still say 'thanks' for the contributions made to this thread.

[Starfish]

And, I'm really looking forward to welcoming your girlfriend to TE, and getting to know her when she signs on in the Getting To Know You forum.

I hope you've told your GF about TE and encouraged her to log on so we can support her and welcome her to the women's cycling community.

If you've checked out many of the other forums and threads on TE, you know how much support and encouragement we offer to each other and our newer women cyclists!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I second what Starfish said. :)

If your girlfriend is anything like many of us women, she'll want to learn as much as she can about biking as she begins to ride. Not saying you can't teach her plenty about cycling- but there many MANY issues, tips, and experiences related specifically to women cyclists that just can't be taught by one man. ;)

Hope you find a good bike for her!- Tell us when you do. And do tell your GF about the forum here. :)

[skunk]

Thanks for everyones help and advice. I ended up getting her a Trek 1600 WSD. She wanted a bike yesterday so I found a Trek dealer that was pretty helpful. She ended up with a WSD 51 and all she needed was a slightly longer stem.

I rode around the neighborhood with her last night and she seems to be comfortable. I'm going to take her to my training crit tonight so she can ride around traffic free.

I'll tell her to check out this forum!

[Grog]

Thanks for everyones help and advice. I ended up getting her a Trek 1600 WSD. She wanted a bike yesterday so I found a Trek dealer that was pretty helpful. She ended up with a WSD 51 and all she needed was a slightly longer stem.

I rode around the neighborhood with her last night and she seems to be comfortable. I'm going to take her to my training crit tonight so she can ride around traffic free.

I'll tell her to check out this forum!

Good to read about all that Skunk! Send her our warmest welcome into the beautiful world of cycling. :)

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Way to go!- she's got her own bike now and she's comfortable and she's riding!
I'm glad you stepped back from the idea of building her a bike for now. It's really more about her and clearing the way for her to enjoy just having fun on a bike at first. Other bikes can come later. ;)

Now your challenge will be to know when to hold back from the temptations of too much "teaching/correcting" and to just let her have fun without inviting your ego along. I say this not as an intended insult to YOU- it's not just you- it's human nature in general and we can all struggle with such issues. :) She'll have plenty of her own questions for you to answer, all in good time.
She is lucky to have someone who cares about her, like you, to ride with and be there for her. :p

[skunk]

I spent a good 15 minutes explaining the gearing to her. I told her not to worry too much about it and after a couple of rides it'll feel like second nature.

How long do guys think I should wait before introducing her to clipless pedals? My original plan was to wait till she was comfortable with riding on the road with traffic but I'm up for any suggestions. She already hates the fact that her feet slip off the flat pedals.

[Starfish]

How long do guys think I should wait before introducing her to clipless pedals? My original plan was to wait till she was comfortable with riding on the road with traffic but I'm up for any suggestions. She already hates the fact that her feet slip off the flat pedals.

I would say the sooner the better. I rode with cages for the first year because the man who introduced me to cycling was comfortable with them and I didn't have the confidence to just go get my own clipless peddles.

A year later, I got started with some double sides Shimano SPDs, and I loved them immediately. Immediately.

But, the one big question mark is all about your GF's readiness. If she complains about the slipping feet, tell her there's a good option, and let her decide. Some people are more timid and like to make changes more slowly. Some want to dive in. She has to go with what level of risk-taking she is ready for.

That said, there are many, many threads here on TE all about making the transition to clipless, and she might be encouraged and comforted to read about other newbies who have gone through this decision.

I'm so glad your GF has her bike, and I second what Lisa said. Anyhow, here's to many happy rides together as your GF gets more and more confident, skilled, and enthusiastic.

[Grog]

I agree that it's better to start with the clipless pedals earlier, unless she expresses high fear of them (in which case it would be her decision to make).

They really change the cycling experience, for the better (in my experience).

[SadieKate]

Is she using clipless in spinning class?

[Triskeliongirl]

I just looked up the specs, nice choice! The carbon fork should cut the harshness of the aluminum frame (which on a positive note lets her get a light frame at low cost), and the shimano 105 10spd group is very solid, I've seen reviews comparing it to the older 9spd ultegra. I am sure she will appreciate the short reach shifters, and and the appropriately sized cranks and bars that come on the wsd bikes. Its great she was fitted for it too. Its a good mid-level bike that should definitely let her figure out if she likes cycling or not. I would say once she's comfortable with the shifting, let her go clipless. Just, be sure the system is adjusted to let her clip out easily. I am a fan of speedplay frogs cuz they are so easy to get in/out of, even though they are a mountain pedal, and like having shoes with recessed cleats for walking around.

[skunk]

Is she using clipless in spinning class?

I don't think she has ever used clipless in the gym. Always just sneakers on flat pedals with cages.


I just looked up the specs, nice choice! The carbon fork should cut the harshness of the aluminum frame (which on a positive note lets her get a light frame at low cost), and the shimano 105 10spd group is very solid, I've seen reviews comparing it to the older 9spd ultegra. I am sure she will appreciate the short reach shifters, and and the appropriately sized cranks and bars that come on the wsd bikes. Its great she was fitted for it too. Its a good mid-level bike that should definitely let her figure out if she likes cycling or not. I would say once she's comfortable with the shifting, let her go clipless. Just, be sure the system is adjusted to let her clip out easily. I am a fan of speedplay frogs cuz they are so easy to get in/out of, even though they are a mountain pedal, and like having shoes with recessed cleats for walking around.

I was looking into the new Speedplay Light Action pedals that are supposedly super easy to clip in and out of. Has anyone tried them? I use Speedplay Zeros and love the dual sided entry. The best part is I can even get them in a color to match her bike!

[Triskeliongirl]

I was looking into the new Speedplay Light Action pedals that are supposedly super easy to clip in and out of. Has anyone tried them? I use Speedplay Zeros and love the dual sided entry. The best part is I can even get them in a color to match her bike!

No personal exp. with the light action, but I know several lightweight women on this board had problems with the zeros, which is in part what drove the development of the light action. I am a fan of speedplay though. If the reviews aren't good, you could always consider some tried and true X2s which I bet you could pick up on ebay. I know lots of women that like them.

[rij73]

My new bike is arriving tomorrow, and I'll be putting Speedplay Light Actions on it right away. I already have the pedals, and I already mounted the cleats to my new shoes. It will be my first time on clipless pedals, so I'll report back here about how it went!

[Kathi]

I'm a super lightweight and I love the Speedplay X series. I have a small foot and they are very easy to clip out of. I was able to use them on my trainer after I tore my MCL/ACL and still clip out with the injured leg.

I haven't used the light action but they look like they are the right place to start.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

There have been a couple of posts somewhere on here recently that said the Speedplay LightAction were really nice.

[skunk]

Looks like I'll be getting her those Speedplays!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

They would be a good choice, as well as the Speedplay Frogs which people seem to rave about as well. Mountain bike shoes will enable her to walk "normally" in her recessed-cleat shoes as compared to hobbling/clacking along on road shoe cleats.

[rij73]

Have been on 3 rides with my new Light Action pedals. I did tip over once (embarrassing), but they are quite easy to get out of. Getting into them takes a little more weight than I thought it would, but I'm getting the hang of it!

[skunk]

Have been on 3 rides with my new Light Action pedals. I did tip over once (embarrassing), but they are quite easy to get out of. Getting into them takes a little more weight than I thought it would, but I'm getting the hang of it!

Everyone falls as least once. When I first started riding clip less I fell over 4 times trying to clip in while going uphill. Don't be embarrassed ;)

[rij73]

Everyone falls as least once. When I first started riding clip less I fell over 4 times trying to clip in while going uphill. Don't be embarrassed ;)

Thanks, Skunk! That is exactly what happened to me. Not enough momentum starting uphill, and I lost my balance.

[Triskeliongirl]

Have been on 3 rides with my new Light Action pedals. I did tip over once (embarrassing), but they are quite easy to get out of. Getting into them takes a little more weight than I thought it would, but I'm getting the hang of it!

Please let us know if the clipping in improves. My understanding is that this is exactly the problem light weight women were having with the original zeros.

We have all fallen in the beginning. It will get better!

[sundial]

They would be a good choice, as well as the Speedplay Frogs which people seem to rave about as well. Mountain bike shoes will enable her to walk "normally" in her recessed-cleat shoes as compared to hobbling/clacking along on road shoe cleats.

I traded my Speedplay lollipops for the Frogs on my road bike and I LOVE it. It's the easiest to clip in and out of. Plus, I can walk around with recessed cleats. And the neatest bonus? You don't clog up the pedals with debris and dirt.:cool: