Fat vs Muscle Weight - scary numbers

[Mr. Bloom]

As many of you know, I embarked on a diet in December with the goal of getting to 160 pounds by June 30. I rocketed to the goal such that many of you expressed concern and I took note and slowed my efforts.

But, as my weight loss slowed and my exercise increased, I rationalized that I was still losing fat, but gaining muscle.

But, I'm an empirical person, and the raw math tells a scary story to me:

I started at 198 pounds with 26% body fat. So, I was 51.48lbs fat and 146.52 pounds muscle.

I'm not 170 ppounds with 20% body fat. So, now I'm 34 pounds fat and 135 pounds muscle.

So, I've lost 28 lbs, with 17.48 lbs of fat and 10.52 lbs of muscle. It is discouraging and scary to see that 1/3 of my loss was muscle!

Is is really possible to lose fat without losing muscle?

[Triskeliongirl]

Greetings Mr. Silver. Lets separate your question into 2 parts. You asked is it possible to lose fat without losing muscle. Absolutely, but only if you are consuming enough dietary protein to spare body protein. I do recall your diet logs looked carb heavy, lots of rice cakes, etc. but I may not be remembering exactly, its been a while since I looked them. That is why when I diet I try to be sure to consume adequate lean protein. However, the second part is that methods of measuring dietary fat are notoriously inaccurate. So, how did your come up with your numbers? If they came from a tanita scale I don't believe them. If they came from your doctors office following underwater weighing and you followed the instructions correctly then they are more likely to be correct, but even then they have a reasonable margin of error. Given that you have been exercising, that too should be muscle building, given adequate dietary protein.

I lost 11 pounds this month following a cyclical ketogenic diet. That means I eat lots of lean protein and low carb veggies during the weak to support fat loss and spare muscle, and then I eat more carbs on the weekend to refill glycogen stores and support longer rides.

[Mr. Bloom]

You're right. I recognize that the Tanita scale is notoriously inaccurate, but I'm guessing that it's directionally correct given that I was consistently 25% to 27% before and am consistenly 19% to 20% now.

However, about 60 days ago, I resolved that I needed to see a nutritionist, but I never did. I think maybe it's time I did that.

But, I do have a question:
- in your opinion, what are the best sources of lean protein? Are you talking quality red meats? Chicken?

[shawnada]

Hi Mr. Silver - 10lbs of muscle is alot to loose. Your top source of pure protein is egg WHITES! Not the yolks. Keep to chicken, turkey, lean cuts of red meat but only every once in awhile. Go to your local health food store or supplemental store like bodybuilding.com and inquire about quality whey or casein protein powders that actually taste good but are low on the fat content side. WHey protein is assimilated into your body at a more rapid pace and casein protein takes longer. Casein is good to take before you go to bed to support muscle during the long night of no food consumption and to help recovery from a day endurance riding. Good luck to you!

[Mr. Bloom]

Thanks shawnada. I just caught a HUGE mistake in my math.

Starting weight was 190, not 198!. As a result, 25% of my loss (about 4 lbs) was muscle.

The 25% ratio is seeming a bit better, but I'm going to have to refocus my attention on the proteins you note. I also like the idea of trying egg whites...

Ironically, when I was young, we lived in Barbados. I wouldn't eat eggs, but I loved mashed potatoes. So, our cook would whip up egg whites and tell me they were mashed potatoes. :( :( I ate them with pleasure. :( :( To this day, I can't trust women named Margaret:D

;) ;) SO, THE MORAL IS: Pretend they're mashed potatoes;) ;)

[Zen]

Hello Mr. Silver!

You ate egg whites and thought they were mashed potatoes?
Either there's something wrong with your taste buds or she was a lousy cook;)

For your protein consumption I recommend real food. Chicken breasts, non fat dairy and as you said good quality lean red meats.

I think you're doing fine. At some point in time you just have to stop counting the numbers all together.

[Triskeliongirl]

And don't forget fish and seafood as another good source of lean protein. But, I still wouldn't believe the scale. Yes the trend is downward, meaning you have lost body fat, but you can't use those numbers to reliably say that you lost muscle mass too. Boca burgers are good too. CHicken is great, and leaner cuts of red meat include pork tenderloin and beef tenderloin. Try substituting ground turkey in dishes you would do with ground beef, like chili.

[Mr. Bloom]

Good advice...tomorrow is another day and a return to really sensible eating!

[lph]

Besides, I wouldn't worry that much if you like the way you're feeling, looking and functioning. You need less muscle to power a lighter body.

[RoadRaven]

Hi there Mr Silver
My partner has been on a dramtic weight loss regimen too... going from a lean cyclist to a skinny one. Before cycling he was a marathon runner.

Just my observations about the changes in his muscle (though we have not used anything to measure his muscle mass).

As a runner he had solid thighs, no fat really, well shaped calves and his arms were muscly also from the work he does outdoors.

When he started cycling, no running and less walking, his legs lost muscle mass... but not power.

With his weight loss goals his muscles have changed again, even leaner, his upper arms look less muscly, his calves and thighs less too - but he is stronger than ever in his cycling (he has just started racing again - conclusively won and interclub time trial by a minute, and is getting placed in hilly road races - hills have not been his forte as he is so tall - "big" for a cyclist).

So - what is the point of this post when yours and his weight loss reasons are different at the moment? When your cycling goals are different at the moment?

To try and help you see that loss of muscle does not necessarily mean loss of power or fitness. If you spend more time cycling, and less walking or whatever, your body will recognise that and respond to it. It adapts and focuses on the work you are asking on it and refines its muscles for that.

Rejoice as you achieve your overall goals, and if you want to build back muscle, then you need to think where, and most importantly why and then perhaps do specific exercise alongside cycling.

I think LPH said this FAAAAR more succintly!!!

[lph]

:D

In rockclimbing it's very obvious - over a certain body weight and they have to bulk up a lot more muscle to carry their own weight. The lightweighters get by with very little muscle by comparison.
My dh is very skinny and very light, but he has me beat hands down on power-to-weight ratio. Which also means he needs a LOT less training to be in good climbing shape. I'm built heavier, and have to keep up regular workouts to schlep myself up the rock.

[Mr. Bloom]

RR & lph: These are good points. Thanks for challenging me to clarity in my goal. That is, at the end of the day, I want folks to describe me as "lean" and not "muscly". Otherwise, folks might not see me as the intelligent person that I am :eek:

Hmmm "muscly"...that may belong on the "favorite words" post.

[Mr. Bloom]

I'm going to start posting to my blog again for record and accountability.

[Kimmyt]

lph, we call that 'strength to weight ratio' and i hate those folks that are tall and bean-sprouty but they sure are naturally good at climbing, aren't they? It also means that little kids can climb about three times as hard as me without half the effort. It makes for frustrating days, at times, but then I'm always making things a competition.

I've noticed changes in my body with different sport emphases. Climbing just got me bulky, but did not do anything to slim me down. I blame that on the fact that, even with long hikes carrying heavy packs, the cardio during climbing is not all that great compared to other sports, and i wasn't climbing hard enough grades to make it more cardio-like.

When I got into cycling, my body changed almost immediately. My bum and legs seem to be shrinking, but there was always a lot of jiggle there to begin with. My upper body is becoming more lean, which means less cushion throughout, which I won't complain about. My breastbones may show a bit here or there, but it's nice to see some definition. When I started running a bit I saw an additional boost to this 'leaning and meaning', the muscles I had started to actually show, which was nice. There is less jiggle in the underside of my arms and my stomach is overall flatter. Swimming has started to give me lovely shoulder and upper arm definition.

Now combine that with the strength gains from climbing and i'm pretty happy with my body. My abs are starting to show nicely and my arms have definition and my legs don't rub in the middle quite so much. All this, and I seem to be able to eat whatever I want, which, granted, probably means if I actually watched what I ate I'd be even leaner and meaner. Ah well, it's not worth yet giving up my weekly pint of ben and jerry's!!

K.

[crumpincommuter]

To be "another country" heard from:

PWR ( Power to Weight Ratio) equally crucial measurement of the "quality" of weight loss. But another nutritional consideration, is that cyclists are notoriously at risk of osteoporosis. So when your selecting your lean protein try killing 2 birds w 1 stone by choosing something that's also going to supplement your calcium intake ( ie.. dairy)...:o

[RoadRaven]

Hey there CrumpinC... it is a good point about the osteo, although it is my understanding that it tends to be "elite" cyclists who are most at risk of bone deterioration because they spend most of almost every day on a bike and do little or no weight bearing exercise.

For the 'average' rider out there, well, most of us still run to catch buses, walk our dogs, chase our kids in the park, charge up stairs at the office... even without realising it we are doing weight-bearing exercise.

So yes, be aware of the risk, and particular, ladies over 35 where storing calcium becomes less efficient. But for most of here at TE (I acknowledge not all here are women :) hi MrS), the osteo risk will be the "normal" side effect of being a woman (hormones, reduced dairy intake because of crazy dieting, tend to be less physical they were younger than "average men" when etc etc).

So as CrumpinC says, increase the dairy in your life, and be aware (but I say don't stress unless cycling is just about all you do... sigh... I wish it was about all I did!)

[Mr. Bloom]

Well, last week I averaged about 50 to 70 grams/day of protein and lost three pounds!

My favorite is one can of kidney beans with chicken, broccoli and a dab of low fat veggie dip. By itself, it's about 50 grams of protein and only about 500 calories!

YUM!