Tires, 23's vs. 25's, brands?

[HappyAnika]

I'm thinking I need some new tires, they are sporting some large cracks/holes, and they seem to be wearing from the inside such that the fabric can be seen and is poking out. I have a flat nearly every time I ride, which is frustrating to say the least. These only have 1500 miles on them.

I currently have 700c x 25's. Can someone explain the difference in feel of riding on 23's instead of 25's? I like my 25's, I'm just curious about 23's.

What is your favorite kind of tire (brand/model)?

I don't race, just general rides and commuting. I'm averaging around 80 mi./week right now, hoping to bump that up to 100 - 150 as the weather continues to improve. I ride mostly asphalt and chip seal roads (with some leftover gravel from the winter) in dry conditions. Oh, and I like to descend, fast, on curvy roads, don't know how that factors into the 23's vs 25's equation.

Thanks!

[mimitabby]

ONLY 1500 miles? that's pretty good.
I prefer tires to be bigger. 23's just seem so darn small to me. My new bike will be sporting 28's. more traction!
In Bicycle Quarterly a study was done on tires. the smaller tires were not the faster ones, the bigger ones were!

[sklarewc]

I think the main idea is that the narrower the tire, the less rolling resistance you have. That said, once you go to a 23 mm tire, it's more important to have a good surface--enough grip so you don't slide out. I've been riding Hutchinsons--their Fusion Team has different grades of rubber extending from the center of the surface that contacts the road, so that the grippier part comes into contact when you're cornering at speed. They feel much more secure to me than anything I'd ridden before. BTW, I've been getting closer to 3,000 miles before having to replace.

[Veronica]

There is a lot more to that study in Bicycle Quarterly.

I use Continental GP 4000s - size 23. I got nearly 1700 miles on my last set.

V.

[maillotpois]

In Bicycle Quarterly a study was done on tires. the smaller tires were not the faster ones, the bigger ones were!

I remember skimming this article at SK's. As V said there was more to it, I just don't recall the specifics. But if 25s truly were "faster" than 23s, then the pros would be using them and they are not. So they simply can't be "faster".

I use Michelin Pro Race 2s. 23. I can get up to 2000 miles, but have been known to forget to change then til the bead is showing through. Ooops! :rolleyes:

[SadieKate]

I'm not so sure the pros don't use 25 for the right application. What did the pros use at Paris Roubaix? One of the pros blamed his crashes on an over-inflated tire as it wouldn't deflect going over the cobles. A lot has to do with proper inflation, a person's wieght, sidewall construction, TPI, etc., etc., etc. 25s can be just as fast as 23s. They can definitely be more comfortable. Sometimes the pros use certain equipment just out of tradition.

Once again (I should just create a macro to paste this in threads) from www.RoadBikeRider.com, Issue No. 269 - 11/09/06:


1. Weekly Dispatch o^o o^o o^o o^o o^o o^o

We heard the buzz about a surprising new tire test in Bicycle Quarterly, a nifty magazine published in Seattle and edited by Jan Heine. The name was Vintage Bicycle Quarterly until recently, but "vintage" has been axed because it implied the mag was about old, collectible bikes and equipment.

Well, plenty of pages are devoted to arcane and interesting gear, history and randonneur-style riding, but Bicycle Quarterly also publishes cutting-edge material. The tire test is testimony, appearing in the Autumn 2006 issue.

Heine gave RBR permission to summarize several major findings. Interestingly, they confirm lots of what Uncle Al has been ranting about for years regarding tire width and inflation pressure.

Some test conclusions will be particularly enlightening if you're riding on narrow, high-pressure clinchers seeking more speed via lower rolling resistance. Your skinny tires may not be as fast as you think.

For the full eight-page report on tire performance, order the Vol. 5 No. 1 issue from http://www.bicyclequarterly.com. The test included nine 700C tires, seven 650B tires and two tubulars. The protocol and results were reviewed by industry experts. These are eight findings:

---With roughly the same power output, the rider's speed can vary by as much as 20% depending on tire choice. For example, the rider on the fastest tire [in this roll-down test] moved down the road at approximately 16.4 mph (26.2 kph) while the same rider on the slowest tire went approximately 13.6 mph (21.7 kph).

---Many longtime riders believe tires with a cotton casing are faster than modern casings made from nylon. Testing seems to confirm this. The best-performing tire in the test, the Deda Tre Giro d'Italia 700x23C (actual width 24.5 mm), has a cotton casing.

---Tire pressure has only a small effect on the rolling resistance of most tires. Narrow 23-mm tires seem to roll fastest at pressures of 105 psi (7.2 bar) or more. However, running these tires at 85 psi (5.8 bar) for improved comfort increased the test times only 2%. Wider 28-mm tires are as fast at 85 psi as they are at higher pressures.

---Tubular tires perform worse at very high pressure. At 130 psi (9 bar), the narrow Clement Criterium rolled slower than it did at a more comfortable 105 psi. The wider Clement Campione del Mundo rolled slightly faster at 85 psi than at 105 psi.

---Wide tires do not roll slower at lower pressures. In fact, testing indicated that a wide tire at lower pressures rolls faster than a narrow tire at high pressures, if all other factors remain the same. Even narrow tires can be ridden at comfortable pressures with only very small concessions to performance.

---Tires rolled slightly slower with Michelin's relatively thick latex tubes than with butyl tubes. Thinner latex tubes, like used in tubular tires, may offer better performance, but when used in clinchers they are more prone to punctures caused by friction between tire and tube. Latex tubes do improve comfort.

---Perhaps the most important result of the test is that tire pressure does not significantly affect rolling resistance. Wide tires in particular do not need high pressures to roll fast. But because many current wide tires are designed to handle high pressure, they have strong casings that lack suppleness. This results in higher rolling resistance than necessary.

---The test's findings point to a new direction for performance bicycles. For most cyclists, wide, supple tires at low pressures offer more speed, better comfort, increased versatility and improved safety than today's narrow high-pressure tires. However, this type of wide, fast tire currently is not available. Hopefully, these test results will help persuade manufacturers to produce them.

[SadieKate]

What did the pros use at Paris Roubaix? How about 27mm?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/apr07/roubaix07/tech/?id=/tech/2007/features/ballan_leroi_roubaix

Liquigas used 24 to 27mm
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=4844

[KnottedYet]

I really like my 28mm Vittoria Randonneurs.

[ridebikeme]

Tires... such a choice! I used to ride Hutchison as well, in fact, I had ridden them since the very early 90's. With that said, I started riding Maxxis tires last year, not only did I get over 2000 miles on them (Courchevals)but I love the way that they handle rough roads and anything else that is thrown at them. These generally run about $55, but if you don't want to spend that much try the Maxxis Detonators.... Great tires!!!!

[Veronica]

---Wide tires do not roll slower at lower pressures. In fact, testing indicated that a wide tire at lower pressures rolls faster than a narrow tire at high pressures, if all other factors remain the same. Even narrow tires can be ridden at comfortable pressures with only very small concessions to performance.


I have a really hard time believing this one and I wish they had given some numbers. What exactly do they mean by high pressure and low pressure? I guess I'll have to read the article. :)

My personal experience is contradictory to this.

[madisongrrl]

I'm thinking I need some new tires, they are sporting some large cracks/holes, and they seem to be wearing from the inside such that the fabric can be seen and is poking out. I have a flat nearly every time I ride, which is frustrating to say the least. These only have 1500 miles on them.

I currently have 700c x 25's. Can someone explain the difference in feel of riding on 23's instead of 25's? I like my 25's, I'm just curious about 23's.

What is your favorite kind of tire (brand/model)?

I don't race, just general rides and commuting. I'm averaging around 80 mi./week right now, hoping to bump that up to 100 - 150 as the weather continues to improve. I ride mostly asphalt and chip seal roads (with some leftover gravel from the winter) in dry conditions. Oh, and I like to descend, fast, on curvy roads, don't know how that factors into the 23's vs 25's equation.

Thanks!


If you aren't racing, go with the 25's. They might be a touch more comfortable than the 23's. I had some good luck with WTB Camino Altos and also Continental Grand Prix 3000. Granted I've only tried these tires in 23's.

Some tires that I found which lacked longevity (and by this, I mean that they were done by 200-800 miles) were WTB Solanos and Vittoria Rubino Pros. In fairness to the Solanos, they are a race tire....they were light, they rolled fast, but they punctured so easy that they only lasted 1-2 months and never "saw" a race. The Vittoria Rubino Pros made it to 800 miles before they had started to crack and cause flats.

[SadieKate]

Veronica, you need to read the article. A lot has to do with tire construction.

[HappyAnika]

Oh my, now my head is spinning . . .:o

[Trek420]

I have Continentals and I think they're 25's. They handle well in all kinds of conditions, been very durable.

[madscot13]

continental gator skin 25's. Not that I have ridden very much on them but they were highly reccomended.

[IFjane]

I remember skimming this article at SK's. As V said there was more to it, I just don't recall the specifics. But if 25s truly were "faster" than 23s, then the pros would be using them and they are not. So they simply can't be "faster".

I use Michelin Pro Race 2s. 23. I can get up to 2000 miles, but have been known to forget to change then til the bead is showing through. Ooops! :rolleyes:

I agree with Sarah - and also use the Michelin Pro Race 2s - 23. I have gotten as much as 3000 miles on a pair but that was REALLY stretching them! Has only happened once - my average is about 1500 miles. I love the tires though they are a b**ch to get one the first time.

[Starfish]

I've been using Specialized All Weather Pros. (Higher TPI than regular Specialized All Weathers.) Oh, they're 25s.

These seem to work alright for me...at least up in the 1500 mile range.

Curious to know what anyone else thinks of these, or how they stack up. I have very little experience with types of tires, so, I don't know what I don't know, as the saying goes.

[HappyAnika]

Thanks for all of the input ladies. Just wanted to update. . . (and for the record in case anyone else has a similar question in the future).

So I'd pretty much decided on the Continental GP 4000's (both because they were recommended here and by racer friend, and were available locally). I figured I'd give the 23's a try and if I didn't like them we'd put them on DH's bike and I could go back and get the 25's instead. However the guys at the LBS talked me into Michelin Krylion Carbons (23). They insisted I'd get more miles out of them and fewer flats while sacrificing maybe 0.5 mph to the Conti's. Not to mention they were half the price of the Conti's. Again, I figured I'd try them and if I didn't like them, give to DH. I put about 60 miles on them over the weekend and so far so good. The 23's feel more responsive, as in one little wiggle of the handle bars results in more directional change. I haven't decided yet if this is good or bad, but its definitely different. They seem to corner well, but the true test of that will be Thursday's hill climb/descent. The rolling resistance seems good, and overall they feel much more durable than the stock Bontragers that came on my Trek. Even 60 miles without a flat so far makes me happy. Although I could not get the dang things on myself, had to have DH finish snapping the tires on for me. Makes me nervous if I get a flat by myself, whether or not I'll be able to get 'em off and back on. Might have DH take them on and off a few times for me to loosen.

Anyways, thanks again! :)

[trekin']

For all of you who have struggled to change a tire, try this nifty little tool from Crank Brothers:

http://www.crankbrothers.com/speedlever.php

I recently took an emergency repair course (from a woman! Thank you Sondra Spencer!), and was introduced to the speed lever. I can now change a tire (or put on new tires!) in 18 minutes, compared to 90 minutes before. I don't go anywhere without it!

And just to add to the conversation, I just replaced the cheapie original tires to my Trek with Continental Ultra Gatorskin 23's...so far so good with the first 100 miles!

[mimitabby]

. They insisted I'd get more miles out of them and fewer flats while sacrificing maybe 0.5 mph to the Conti's. :)


Do you really think you are going 0.5mph slower? That's a lot!

[HappyAnika]

For all of you who have struggled to change a tire, try this nifty little tool from Crank Brothers:

http://www.crankbrothers.com/speedlever.php



Thanks, this might be the gadget someone at work today was trying to explain to me.


Do you really think you are going 0.5mph slower? That's a lot!

Its hard to say, the two rides I did this weekend were routes I'd never done before, and for once there was little wind (Yippee!:D ). I averaged about 0.5 mph faster than most of my rides this month. The best gauge will be my 20 mi. ride into work during which the riding conditions are typically very repeatable, but I won't be doing that until next week.

[spokewench]

I used to run 19's to race, but I also rode on good roads (not a lot of potholes and bumps), mostly in California. I run 23's to ride regularly around here in Flag. They are much more comfortable and take the punishment of potholes and the likes a little better and my body takes that punishment a little better with the more forgiving tire.

Last year for the Bicycle Tour, I rode 23s - and they were great. The roads were in good shape and so I got added comfort and more rollability; but then my hubby rode 25s cause he wanted even more forgiveness. He is heavier than I am so I think that has something to do with it too.

If you are not racing, it is all for comfort. You aren't going to add that much time to any ride by getting a wider or narrow tire, especially if you are just talking 23s vs. 25s.

spoke

[TsPoet]

For all of you who have struggled to change a tire, try this nifty little tool from Crank Brothers:

http://www.crankbrothers.com/speedlever.php

I can now change a tire (or put on new tires!) in 18 minutes, compared to 90 minutes before. I don't go anywhere without it!


Got one of those, saved my life with my tight trike tires. Took me about 3 tire changes to break it, though - so don't stop carrying a backup tire lever!

[trekin']

I carry 2 regular levers, plus the speed lever...I use the regular levers to get things started, then use the speed lever to get the tire off and to put it back into place...so much easier!