avoiding car doors in the city

[spokes]

hello all.

i recently switched commuting routes, and my new route has a line of cars parked in the right lane for about 15 minutes of the ride.

i mistakenly posted this request for advice on the local cycling club forum.

now that i've waited a week, and gotten a completely useless response by someone who talked to me like i'm an idiot, i would like to hear what you all have to say. i'm sure it would be more helpful, and much less condescending!! :rolleyes:


i ride down yonge st: from yonge blvd to elginton at the tail end of rush hour (around 6:30 to 7 p.m.). pretty much the whole way there is a line of cars parked next to the curb, and then there's about 3/4 of a lane between the parked cars and the left lane. to be safe (avoiding car doors) i ride 3 or 4 feet to the left of the parked cars, meaning i am smack dab in the centre of that 'lane' (mini-lane, really). [teamestrogen post-script: i am not willing to ride less than three feet from the cars. not only does it make me feel unsafe, it *is* unsafe, and it's almost the same distance that i ride from the curb.] even though there's not really enough room for a car to pass between the parked cars and a car travelling in the left lane, i get honked at every now and then. i must get passed by hundreds of cars during the route, and most leave me alone. occasionally i get honked at and very noisily passed-- so that i'll realize that i, being a cyclist, am a lower form of life *rollseyes*. yesterday however, a cab driver actually rolled down his window to tell me i shoud be riding farther right. at the next light (after he drove away) he tried to pretend it was for my safety, but i am aware it was said out of arrogance and annoyance because i was 'in his way'.

so... as people who likely ride in traffic as much as or more than i do... what do you think? am i doing the right thing -- is it best to ride where i have been? should i ride a different route? or should i just ignore the 1 out of 1000 drivers who are that rude? (i don't ride downtown, more along the middle of the city, but how is it dealt with there, where the streets are narrower? does anyone else get honked at?)

thanks very much for your help. i just want traffic to flow as smoothly as possible!!

thanks for your help. this is really stressing me out. :confused:

[Trek420]

spokes wrote:
i recently switched commuting routes, and my new route has a line of cars parked in the right lane for about 15 minutes of the ride..... i would like to hear what you all have to say. i'm sure it would be more helpful, and much less condescending!! :rolleyes:


In CA the vehicle code is that bikes are traffic. If a bike lane is there, you should be in it but if conditions make the lane unsafe (cars, glass, grate etc) or if no bike lane is present you have the right to "take the lane". Just do the normal stuff, signal, look back for approaching cars and get yourself right in there. You have the right to ride out of reach of car doors ESPECIALY if you see drivers in the car.

If the cars are vacant it's not as important but sometimes you can't see that (blacked out windows etc).

Part of my bike route I choose off streets, parallel to the main drag because it is less traffic. You may ride at or about the speed of traffic so your cabby was not much inconvenience but was wrong to correct you.

hope this helps

[jobob]

There was an op-ed sort of article in last month's Adventure Cyclist about this issue - come to find out you can download the article as a .pdf file, here's the link:

http://www.adventurecycling.org/resources/doorprize.pdf

( small plug: make sure to check around the Adventure Cycling website too, good stuff! http://www.adventurecycling.org )


Professor snapdragen, anything to add???

[snapdragen]

Ahem, kaff, kaff, 'sound of throat clearing'......

I think Mizz Trek covered it pretty well. I think the general advise is to ride as far to the right as is safely possible. (OK, I've fussed over this sentence, it just doesn't sound right, but I'm moving on.) So, three feet away to avoid opening car doors is a good idea.

Spokes, I think the way you are riding is fine, you are avoiding the door zone. Keep an eye out for the tell tale signs, exhaust, tail lights, if you're lucky you can actually see in the car to see if someone is there. If you take the lane, ride predictably. Don't swerve in and out, try to avoid any sudden stops etc. As for the honkers - don't take anything personally, smile and wave - works better than anger.

[spokes]

thanks for the speedy responses. i appreciate the reassurance.

thankfully, i do pay attention to parked cars up ahead when i'm riding next to parked cars. i'm sure i've managed to avoid accidents a couple times simply because i was more aware. moreover, since i make eye contact with pedestrians about to get into their cars, most of them stand behind their car and wait for me to pass before opening their car door. very considerate of them! so i thank them as i pass (i like to reward good traffic behaviour).

backstory (and some ranting): i got a little flustered when the afore-mentioned driver stopped me and told me where i should be riding. so i posted on my local cycling forum, and got even more flustered when the first reply was NOT what i considerd to be safe advice (especially because i never suggested i might be riding to far out in the lane.)

okay, if any of you are interested, here's what the poster said (in part):

Just because having more space "feels" safer, it doesn't mean it *is* safer.
*You* can't ride in the middle of a lane because it makes you feel safer.
*They* can't squeeze their cars into 3/4ths of a lane *with* a cyclist and honestly and reasonably expect that they can pass you *safely*. If they hit you while doing this maneuver, get the license plate number, record the time and location, and report the incident to the police. He'll get a warning, and at most charged, and probably never pull that stunt again.

So don't ride in the middle of the lane, even if it's just 3/4ths of a lane.
Personally, I'd rather hit a door at 30km/h and sue, than get run over by a frustrated driver of a 3000lb cab from behind and be the one sued and charged.

So the right thing to do is to bike as far off to the right as you can, and pray to whatever god you believe in that a door doesn't open up in front of you.
If a door opens and you can't stop in time, grip your handlebars and hold on tight.


um, what? was that a cycling forum? really?

i replied to this alleged cyclist that i found his advice to be of no help, and that he was condescending.

the person who replied next said what you have all been saying. i have to ride as far to the right as it reasonable, and safe. so i thanked her for her advice. however now i'm in a bit of a flame war with the alleged cyclist. i just can't believe i got that kind of response!

...i may have sounded like a newbie when i posted, hence the condescending tone i got in the other forum. and i am really getting sick of sexist attitudes regarding cycling and traffic. the poster sounded like a stereotypical do-no-wrong-and-know-everything male ego. (no offense to men. some men i love. some men are so arrogant it makes me wanna scream!) the main thing i notice is that i have NEVER been told where to ride, asked 'what are you doing' etc., by a female motorist. only men (some men) are arrogant enough to beleive that not only may i need their 'advice' but i would actualy appreciate a stranger telling me what to do. and i assume they would not be so stupid as to do the same thing to another man, as they damn well know it's inappropriate and would likely be starting a fight. *sigh* ...someday, cyclists will be accepted on the roads, and someday, men and women be treated the same. i just hope i'm still around when it happens!!

sorry, i needed to rant. that one's been bugging for a while. :o

... i really appreciate your advice/support. in the linked article, someone said the safe distance from parked cars has been shown to be 5 feet! now i feel better about my 3-foot safety zone. :rolleyes:

[MightyMitre]

What a strange reply from the alleged cyclist! That's not the sort of response I would expect to get from the riders in my club. I'm not suprised you were annoyed!

I'd have to agree with the others - it's sensible to ride a little way out of parked cars. My boyfriend got taken out by a car door a few months ago and you could see the outline of the car door in the bruise on his thight. ( He's fine now.)

I'd say ride where you feel safe - if people toot their horn at you let them. It's better than being knocked off by a car door and ending up sprawled across the whole road!

Ride safe and enjoy...
:)

[Cdalekat]

I too, can't believe that a cyclist would post that load of crap. Rule one of biking - take the *entire* lane if you feel it is necessary for your safety.

I ride in a major metropolitan city, so I'm well aware of the dangers of dooring. When I have a bike lane, I do stay inside it, but I pay attention to the parked vechicles. People who use the bike lane as a double-parking zone are a bigger problem, though.

I don't like trying to squeeze into the far right of a lane because then the cars think they have enough room to sneak around me. If the lane is wide, then I don't worry about it too much.

If the lane is narrow, I take an "aggressive" position, and intentionally place myself in the lane so the cars *can't* get around me - it forces them to use the other lane entirely and protects *me*. Usually this position is to the left-of-center of the lane. I also do this in areas where the drivers are typically more aggressive - wide lane or no wide lane. I hate having cars "buzz" me because it leaves me no room to react to something in my path.

[Maine-iac]

Personally, I'd rather hit a door at 30km/h and sue, than get run over by a frustrated driver of a 3000lb cab from behind and be the one sued and charged.


I'll try to keep myself under control here as much as possible.... Been there, did that, done that.
Result = 5 weeks in hospital , emergency surgery, seperated ribs, concussion, 10 tubes in my body at one time. Possible threat to future career and life ( yes I saw the light at the end of the tunnel - more than once.) No need to go on...

if the lane is narrow, I take an "aggressive" position, and intentionally place myself in the lane so the cars *can't* get around me - it forces them to use the other lane entirely and protects *me*. Usually this position is to the left-of-center of the lane. I also do this in areas where the drivers are typically more aggressive - wide lane or no wide lane. I hate having cars "buzz" me because it leaves me no room to react to something in my path.

I whole heartily agree with this advice. Many drivers do not understand a cyclist position. It's often much safer to "force" drivers out and around you than to be sqeezed into an unsafe situation. I may really tick people off, but then being sworen at hurts a lot less than a car door.

[spokes]

I'll try to keep myself under control here as much as possible.... Been there, did that, done that.

yeah i had problems with that too-- and my dooring incident was very very minor, especially in comparison to yours, maine-iac. and i still wanted to tell that guy to stick it.


I too, can't believe that a cyclist would post that load of crap.

lol, my sentiments exactly!! you have a way with words, cdalekat. ;)


I'm not suprised you were annoyed!

oi, annoyed does not even cover it. luckily, after me there were about 5 replies telling that guy he was nuts. (sorry, i didn't mean to neglect your post, mightymitre. i'd been meaning to reply since i saw your post. i know it's no faux pas, but i don't like conveying the impression that i don't appreciate posts. i don't wanna be one of those people who post and you never hear from them again. :rolleyes: )

yeah, i've realized (with t.e. forum help) i've been doing it right all along. i won't let a few stupid honkers deter me. thanks for the replies, ladies!

:cool:

[Justina]

I ride through a simular area every night in downtown seattle . there are two lanes in each direction but the far right is mostly filled with parked cars. Since this is a moderate uphill grade, I tend to ride far right and take my chances with doors becuse my slower speeds mean I can stop faster and in controll. If I were in the flats or going downhill I would tend to pull into the "main Traffic" and ride as fast as possible. As a general rule I try to provide cars with some way to pass me while doing "their" speed limit. If for some reason I am forced to make them follow me i go as fast as I can and get it over with ...quickly MAKE THEM TREAT YOU LIKE EVERY OTHER CAR ON THE ROAD WHEN YOUR OUT THERE THO, BECUSE YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT. NOTE; In the years since Ive been rideing I have been yelled at, flipped off, had things trown at me, even been shot at with a gun so... um, I figure it's not a ride if I don't receive some sort of abuse::cool:

[MightyMitre]

The way is see it is that if drivers have a problem with me being on the road it's their problem. I pay my road taxes and yes - I have a car too. I have just as much right to be on the road as anyone.

PS - I mentioned earlier on my bf was taken out by a car door when he was in Dublin. He wasn't going very fast but was very p*'d off. It was a taxi that got him and the driver was very concerned - partially because his as his license was at risk.

It was actually a couple of girls, all dressed up for a night out who opened the door and as they helped bf to his feet he noticed his chain had come off. So he stood by and let the girls put his chain back on for him. He then rode off , a bit bruised but with an evil sense of satisfaction as he knew the 2 girls would be off for a night on the town with oily fingers!!:D

[Maine-iac]

Since this is a moderate uphill grade, I tend to ride far right and take my chances with doors becuse my slower speeds mean I can stop faster and in controll

Justina,
A little concern here. You may THINK you have control and can respond quickly enough, but that is not always the case. Just beware that your response time is normally slower than what we perceive. Remember the whole "try to catch the ball someone drops" thing? Most people can't catch it. It's amazing how quickly a door can open. And let's face it, even the best driver that looks before opening a door may not see you while you are in a blind spot. I always give more room for a door/car than I think I really need....I misjudged that distance once...(It was my brake lever that clipped the door). I was not going fast and I was 1 mile from home. I know this is a result of personal experience and I am probably a bit more paranoid than the average person, but hey, that is just me. Just something to think about.

[spazzdog]

I'm not sure if it's the same in all states but the ones I've lived in the law reads that bikes have the same rights and are subject to most of the same laws as cars. Unfortunately most drivers missed that section of drivers ed.

I'm thinking a jersey/t-shirt with the state regulation written across the back in big red print. Kind of like a 'baby on board' stick up in a car...

Something simple... for me it would be:


MASS STATE LAW

Rules of the road apply to all drivers, including bicyclists.


Of course that means that those who wear such a shirt need to not blow through stop signs, inch up on the right at lights, etc... not that I'm inferring anyone on this board would do such a thing.

[Justina]

I gues by saying I am able to stop faster and In controll I am actually chooseing the worst of two evils. Since I am going slower I think I would rather be doored than be rammed or harrased by a driver.Like I said I try to give drivers an way to pass, In this paticular stretch I can choose between plugging up the car lane or rideing the squeeze between them. Noboby can go very fast here due to lights ,pedestrians ect....

I always wanted a jersy that says on the back " Honk if your an A#* hole. My husband says I get too much harassment as it is. He's probably right.

[Waverly]

Originally posted by Justina
In the years since Ive been rideing I have been yelled at, flipped off, had things trown at me, even been shot at with a gun so... um, I figure it's not a ride if I don't receive some sort of abuse::cool:

You were shot at with a gun! As in real bullets? That is insane did you get a tag or anything?

Good Grief!

Jessie

[spazzdog]

I had a friend back when I lived in NYC who rode with a ball-peen hammer... car crowded her, BANG! They thought they'd been shot. Worked for taxis that rode up her back too. They'd crowd, then cut around her and BANG! they were missing a headlight.

Now, this was the 70's... but it always brings a grin to my face.

[spokes]

this crazy cyclist with the bad advice is back!!! erg, he won't go away. this is my first real flame war, and i am at a loss. i'm so angry i can't even think straight.

oi, i get so stressed about stupid things. :rolleyes:

how do you all handle flame wars? i just want him to drop it, there's no point in arguing, we just don't agree and won't change our minds. so what to do? :confused:

[Maine-iac]

Ignore him?

[Cdalekat]

I agree - you can only ignore him.
I would also propose ignoring him on any other thread too.
Treat his posts as if they don't exist.

[Justina]

Yes'um I've been shot at with a real gun! Went right between me and the rider in front. To be fair the Idiots were shooting acrost a road and NOT directly at us for sport but, non the less this is a very popular ride in our area so you'da thunk maybe to look before you shot..duh....... called the cops on a cell but um.... gave up after what would probably end up as another long strory. Make's life interesting no? HAHAHA:D

[spokes]

I agree - you can only ignore him.

if it were that easy for me to ignore people my blood pressure would be a lot lower. :rolleyes: but thanks for replying.

[Cdalekat]

Originally posted by spokes
if it were that easy for me to ignore people my blood pressure would be a lot lower. :rolleyes: but thanks for replying.

I know that feeling all too well!