Landis Hearing

[teigyr]

I don't know if this is posted anywhere else or if this is even the right place to do it but...I'm curious. What does everyone think of the latest happenings?

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1622888,00.html?cnn=yes

[maillotpois]

I read about that last night.

I think it is just insane. The whole thing has turned into a circus - worse. I can't believe that Geohagan would do that - that is beyond stupid. Cell phones record numbers, you idiot! It reflects VERY badly on FLoyd.

[missymaya]

Not only was it stupid of Geohagan do make that call but also very disrespectful, insensitive, and downright disgusting to try to use something that terrible against Lemond. It makes the Landis team look real bad. The whole case has grown into a sideshow.

[teigyr]

Makes me sad. I really really really wanted to think that Floyd is a decent guy and everything's legit. Will be interesting, LeMond is supposed to be at the ride I'm doing tomorrow and I hear he's a really nice guy.

[Zen]

Geoghan is a lawyer (if I have my cast of characters straight)?
I hope he knows the law better than he knows how to be sneaky.
If you want to do something like that you have to get a TracFone and pay cash.

[Derf]

Geoghan is a lawyer (if I have my cast of characters straight)?
I hope he knows the law better than he knows how to be sneaky.
If you want to do something like that you have to get a TracFone and pay cash.

I think he's Landis' manager. Not sure if he's also an attorney.

[NJBikeGal]

I was wondering when this was going to end up on here! :(

The whole situation (including the continuation of allegations that Puerto has "more names") is simply disappointing. I guess that's what happens in the one sport that actually feels compelled to hunt down and suspend doping violators. Lord knows it is not a top priority in a lot of other athletic fields. But, it sucks to have to question who you look up to as a rider. So, am I allowed to like Valverde -oops, now he's implicated. OK, how about Periero - nope, now he's trying to clear the implicationg of his name, too.

I'll just keep my fingers crossed that the guys (and gals) I love to watch ride don't end up anywhere near that list.

[equus123]

this is playing out to be an interesting case. everything from the interpreter being replaced to prank calls. it certainly spells out trouble so far and i think it's only going to get hairier and crazier as time goes on.

what does everybody think about Floyd's truth? Did he or didn't he? I'm interested to see if/when they get to the physiological side of Floyd's performance on stage 17 if what he did was consistent to his training and peak power numbers. I'm very skeptical about somebody who completely bonks one day (didn't he have dehydration problems?) to winning back several MINUTES over the yellow jersey the next day on a mountain stage. It's really hard for me to believe it was done naturally. Stuff like that really doesn't happen, and it's not that I don't believe in miracles, but a performance from a notable guy that comes completely out of nowhere - that's what I find hard to believe.

The flip side to the question - was there malpractice on the side of the French laboratory? Who knows. I'm unfamiliar with evidence of wrong-doing by this place previously. Does anybody know further information on this subject? I know that Lance, the most tested and hated athlete in France (lol), does not trust ANYTHING French lab-related. I can imagine why he feels that way. Though the thing is....how wrong can they be with their procedures if there's documentation and signoffs throughout the whole test?

Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject.

[Lifesgreat]

Just when you think it won't get stranger. . .

A very cruel, insensitive (stupid is a given) act on the part of Landis' former associate.

[Eden]

I'm very skeptical about somebody who completely bonks one day (didn't he have dehydration problems?) to winning back several MINUTES over the yellow jersey the next day on a mountain stage. It's really hard for me to believe it was done naturally. Stuff like that really doesn't happen, and it's not that I don't believe in miracles, but a performance from a notable guy that comes completely out of nowhere - that's what I find hard to believe.

Since all the revelations of the past weeks I totally reserve any judgements on any riders, but after racing for a year I now find it much MORE believable that it could happen than I would have in the past. Not only have I experienced feeling really low one day and exceptional the next - wholly unassisted mind you, if you watch the race the others really blew it tactically. It wasn't as if Floyd went out and totally blew them away. When he went off the front they had all already written him off and figured he'd just blow again, so they let him go waaaaaay to long. When they finally decided to chase it was much too late. It was a combination of Floyd's determination to come back and the slacking of the others - if they had taken him seriously he probably would not have gained back so much time. This does not necessarily mean he is innocent, but I certainly think that it is possible to do what he did without doping.

[Thorn]

Was his performance believable without drugs? Absolutely. I don't race, but even lil' ol' me has had a day where I felt terrible followed by a day I felt could rule the world. And, as Eden pointed out, tactics play a huge role.

Could there be a problem with the lab? Of course. No one is perfect. Like many, I wonder how the lab could catch a positive on only one day of the race and nothing any other....if testing were truly a blind study. It does make the lab look suspect.

But, more than the Landis case, I have a problem with "guilty until proven innocent" mode right now. It is like the McCarthy era--if you don't like someone, mention that they might be athlete #2415 in Operation Puerto. Instantaneously, the athelete is under suspicion. Even if innocent they now have to waste energy defending themselves.

If cycling has a problem, then it needs to address it by developing tight testing protocols with tests that cannot be questioned. How? Gee, that should be interesting to watch, but if they're going to say "guilty" they ought to be able to state it without reasonable doubt.

[equus123]

Good point Eden. Thank you. :)

[IFjane]

I agree with most everything that has already been said. It is so sad that this thing has been turned into a sideshow. It smacks of OJ's trial, and I'm afraid Floyd will be thought of in about the same light as Simpson after it is all said and done. Especially after it was splashed across the front page of CNN...

[Derf]

what does everybody think about Floyd's truth? Did he or didn't he?

Sadly, I think he did and I think a lot of them dope.

[mimitabby]

Gee, I hope not IFJane, Floyd isn't on trial for murder...

[Zen]

What puzzles me is that the substance in question is testosterone. From my limited knowledge, testosterone is not that much of a performance factor. EPO, yes. I find the discrepancies in the way the samples were handled to be questionable. I think the U.S. Anti-Doping Association want a head to mount and hang on the wall. I also blame the French. I blame the French for everything:p

[sklarewc]

Well, I have to say Floyd's actions during the arbitration make me think he's clearly capable of cheating. The report in Velonews.com included a link to the message he posted about LeMond, in which he acted as if LeMond had been the perpetrator of the abuse instead of the victim of sexual abuse. . . referring to LeMond's dark secret and things that would "damage his character severely . . . However, if he ever opens his mouth again and the word Floyd comes out, I will tell you all some things that you will wish you didn't know and unfortunately I will have entered the race to the bottom which is now in progress."
Oh, please--blame the victim. That, in addition to his "business manager"'s pathetic attempt to intimidate Lemond, cause me to lose all respect for Floyd. . . not to mention the lab results. Sure, Lance hated the French labs and all the intrusive testing he had to go through, but think about it--Lance's tests never came back positive.

[PinkBike]

first, there is no way a "dose of testosterone" will improve your performance the next day. even if he did it, it would have been over a period of time in order to get the benefits and all his previous and subsequent tests would have shown traces of it. the test for determining the testosterone/epitestosterone level is supposed to be very accurate, but there are cases of gross errors. i think most notably is the young rider (age 18) who was stripped of his license after a positive result, then fought the result and lost repeatedly until they found the same results in his younger 15-year-old brother.
second, dont believe a word greg lemond says. the man has totally lost it. he was an arrogant little rich boy at the start, a notorious whiner, and now is just bitter. he seems to deride any american who may be better than he was. he was good, and good for american cycling, but he is a blame-er - if he hadnt got shot, if hineault hadnt reneged, yadayadayada. the abuse? did it even happen?
third, lance always said its impossible to prove a negative, as in "i didnt do it, but how can i possibly prove it?" i dont like the guilty until proven innocent scenario, but i also dont like the defenses they present. focussing on the lab mistakes seems to be the lawyerly tactic of "throw everything out there and get 'em all confused about the details." id rather see a defense that consisted of the accused standing proud and saying No, I Never Once Doped In Any Way, and provide ALL the career test results before and after to cast doubt on this one sample. i used to think Tyler was innocent because he protested so strongly and was so believable, but the puerta scandal kind of shot that down. i respect david millar and stefano garzelli who admitted their mistakes and served their suspensions quietly then came back to race.
fourth, did floyd do it? i dont know, i hope not, his legal defense team has a good presentation about all the lab testing errors, which should be enough to acquit him, but WADA and the UCI are very proud and stubborn and dont seem to ever favor the athletes over "their system". which is one reason to hope he wins even if he did do it - to make WADA and UCI more accountable and change some much needed procedures (like having the A and B tests done by the same lab). i would at one time have said floyd couldnt have done it based on his sincere denials, but tyler ruined my trust in people's innocence. i used to think "why would he be protesting so hard at such expense if he was guilty," but theres a LOT at stake pending the outcome so i dont hold with that so much any more. less gullible, more cynical, i guess.
finally, floyd, i hope you didnt do it. please convince me and everybody else. restore my faith in you.

[snapdragen]

Well said PinkBike!

I still want to believe Floyd.

[sklarewc]

Wow. I just don't understand these reactions (including "I always blame the French"--what's up with that?). Why do so many people *want* to believe Floyd? Here's what he posted on the internet after Lemond told him he'd been abused:

>>" I did, as I used to do for some people, call GL privately to discuss some comments that he made about me and my situation. . . What Greg actualy divulged to me is what he does not want to talk about. . . Unfortunately, the facts that he divulged to me in the hour which he spoke and gave no opportunity for me to do the same, would damage his character severely and I would rather not do what has been done to me. However, if he ever opens his mouth again and the word Floyd comes out, I will tell you all some things that you will wish you didn't know and unfortunately I will have entered the race to the bottom which is now in progress. For the record, I don't know Greg, and have no more respect for Greg than I have for people who go through life blaming others for all of their problems. You are not a victim of others Greg, you are a pathetic human who believes that if others didn't cheat (not sure about you) you would be the President and all the peasants would bow to your command. Join reality with the rest of us who win some and lose some and keep on smiling."<<
Nice. And you think it matters whether Lemond was abused or not? You don't like Lemond because you think he was a spoiled rich kid??
As for the effects of taking testerosterone, this is what came up in yesterday's hearing (from Velonews):

>>Friday's most compelling testimony - at least from a cycling standpoint - came from longtime low-level pro Joe Papp, who was called by USADA to detail his use of a wide assortment of doping products, including synthetic testosterone. The crux of Papp's testimony was the notion that testosterone can have a beneficial day-to-day impact for bike racers, and that you can easily hide that use from drug testers, two ideas the Landis side disputed in their opening statement on Monday.
"There was a significant improvement in recovery. There was no cumulative fatigue when I used [testosterone]," claimed Papp, during direct question from USADA lawyer Matt Barnett. <<

[Zen]

Wow. I just don't understand these reactions (including "I always blame the French"--what's up with that?).

"What's up with that" is sarcasm.
_________________________________________________________

Originally Posted by sklarewc
>>Friday's most compelling testimony - at least from a cycling standpoint - came from longtime low-level pro Joe Papp, who was called by USADA to detail his use of a wide assortment of doping products, including synthetic testosterone. The crux of Papp's testimony was the notion that testosterone can have a beneficial day-to-day impact for bike racers, and that you can easily hide that use from drug testers, two ideas the Landis side disputed in their opening statement on Monday.
"There was a significant improvement in recovery. There was no cumulative fatigue when I used [testosterone]," claimed Papp, during direct question from USADA lawyer Matt Barnett. <<
___________________________________________________________

How is this compelling? It's nothing but anecdotal. And from a drug user, no less.

[Zen]

>>Friday's most compelling testimony - at least from a cycling standpoint - came from longtime low-level pro Joe Papp, who was called by USADA to detail his use of a wide assortment of doping products, including synthetic testosterone. The crux of Papp's testimony was the notion that testosterone can have a beneficial day-to-day impact for bike racers, and that you can easily hide that use from drug testers, two ideas the Landis side disputed in their opening statement on Monday.
"There was a significant improvement in recovery. There was no cumulative fatigue when I used [testosterone]," claimed Papp, during direct question from USADA lawyer Matt Barnett. <<

How is this compelling? It's nothing but anecdotal.

[KnottedYet]

I've known people whose identity was wrapped up in their need to blame others or to portray themselves as the noble victim. I saw an interview with LeMond a couple years ago, and immediately thought he was one of those.

*Everyone* has a story, and everyone needs to survive their story or it will make them bitter and rule their lives.

If I was in Floyd's shoes faced with LeMond's machinations, I'd probably say the same thing. Only in a more polite way...

[sklarewc]

Ok, let's see, PinkBike thinks Lemond is a blamer, and ZenCentury "blames the French for everything," and no one thinks Landis's post and attempts at witness intimidation reflect anything about his character? And "what's up with that?" is viewed as offensive sarcasm--?
Whoa, sorry, I still have to say, I don't understand these reactions.
BTW, the "most compelling" part in my last post was a quote from Velonews, not my personal view. I suspect there was more to the testimony than the short quote that was included.

[xeney]

Nobody was telling you your sarcasm was offensive; she was explaining that "I always blame the French" was sarcasm.

I think it's possible to think the whole thing is a mess and everybody is coming off as pretty shady here ... you don't have to take sides. Greg LeMond is nuts -- remember last year when he claimed that Lance Armstrong had threatened his life and his wife's life? Did anyone actually believe that? I didn't. Just the fact that he has somehow involved himself here as a witness, when he cannot possibly have anything first-hand to report, tells me that he is looking for attention. And he comes off as a liar.

But then, so does Landis, honestly. I really wanted to believe him but I have found him unconvincing for a while now. And posting what he posted about LeMond was so stupid that I am finding myself not really caring if he doped or not, because I've lost all respect ... but do I honestly think he was picking on a poor child abuse victim? Not really; I think he and his team figured out what other people have also figured out -- that is, that LeMond is mentally unstable and will say just about any ridiculous thing to get himself in the spotlight -- and tried to nip it in the bud, not because they really feared that LeMond had damaging information (how could he possibly?) but because they feared he'd make a big ruckus.

Which he did, and the Landis team stupidly made it worse. I am finding it really hard to care anymore about men's pro cycling.

[KnottedYet]

Anybody got some good links to women's pro cycling?

[missymaya]

That last point you made xeney is exactly how I feel. It's gotten so out of control, I just don't want to hear it anymore. I would like to hear about more positive men's and women's pro cycling. It doesn't even need to be pro cycling, just good cycling.

[Kalidurga]

Anybody got some good links to women's pro cycling?

I don't have any links to women's cycling, but I'll say this again: My new team to watch is Slipstream (http://www.slipstreamsports.com/news.press.php?action=detail&pressrelease_id=20&year=2007). Go dope-free argyle, go!

[Eden]

http://www.victorycycling.com/
http://www.procyclingtour.com/pct_cyclists_women.cfm
http://www.womencyclists.com/
http://www.usacycling.org/bios/index.php
http://www.teamcolavita.com/roster-main.htm
http://www.t-mobile-team.com/tmo_team/servlet/pages/894414
http://www.webcorcycling.com/

[KnottedYet]

Thank you for the Slipstream link! Loooove that argyle! And you can get one of their classy argyle jerseys: http://www.slipstreamsports.com/fun.get.html

I heard about them on NPR, but didn't know their team name. Thank you! Now I'll want to follow them, too.

And Eden, thanks for the women's links! Now I've got to choose a couple women's teams to follow (besides Group Health, of course!)

And "DopersSuck" website has plenty of anti-doping goodies (even pink socks) for those of us who wish to voice our displeasure: http://doperssuck.typepad.com/doperssuck/

[Eden]

If I may be so bold as to suggest the Webcor - Builder team, specifically Mara Abbot. She goes to school in Walla Walla these days which makes her pretty close to a local gal, the last time I looked she was leading the NRC (national race calendar) points competition and since she is so close you may even see her racing some of the local races at times (she of course did the tour of Walla Walla earlier this year). Of course unfortunately this means after I upgrade I will be racing with the likes of her........

[Eden]

Thank you for the Slipstream link! Loooove that argyle! And you can get one of their classy argyle jerseys: http://www.slipstreamsports.com/fun.get.html

All of that argyle and what - NO SOCKS!

[Fredwina]

Anybody got some good links to women's pro cycling?

there's also www.womenscycling.net

[Kalidurga]

Thank you for the Slipstream link! Loooove that argyle! I heard about them on NPR, but didn't know their team name. Thank you! Now I'll want to follow them, too.

Not only are they an ethical team, but they seem to be chock full o' talent, too. I watched Brad Huff smoke the field for 80-something laps at the CSC criterium race last year, and Danny Pate performed well at the Tour of California earlier this year. With so many of the established pros like Ulrich, Basso and Landis getting slammed by Operation Puerto and leaving us questioning their integrity, Slipstream's a good place to look for up and coming riders to root for, who likely won't end up with negative headlines.

And, yeah, Eden, they should have socks!


Sorry for the thread hi-jack...

[equus123]

I read this on cyclingnews.com today (Letters to Cyclingnews) and thought it was really cute & funny. :p

Landis case live coverage
I only wish that Cyclingnews would run minute by minute updates:

12:23 PM - Landis attorney attacks!

12:25 PM - LNDD Interpreter dropped - French speaking lab tech isolated.

12:35 PM - The 'yellow tie' still looking cool, has most of his legal team around him. Looking over his shoulder for LeMond to attack.

12:40 PM - Suh looks to be a lock for the 'red tie' for most aggressive lawyer.

1:10 PM - Uncle Ron attacks LeMond. Attack immediately responded to by LeMond domestiques.

1:23 PM - LeMond finally attacks Landis. This may be the move of the day. He opens up a gap and we see Landis suffering. Uncle Ron is also suffering and dropping off the back, unable to continue with the Landis group.

1:25 PM - Landis is clearly in trouble. Jacobs starts setting the pace with Landis on his wheel, trying to pull the yellow jersey back into the race.

[IFjane]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may24news2

[bmccasland]

So maybe there could be a ladies Tour de France? At the rate the pro riders are hitting the confessional and admitting that they doped in their past attempts for greatness, there'll be room for new clean riders to fill in. TE could fill the void!

ummm, might be a problem, I think my asthema medicines are steriods., so I'm out. And I do take them because I want to be a better rider :p Does it count when you take medicine to try to bring lung function UP to "normal?" :D

What the boys have been up to is really sad. Sad for them, sad for the sport.

[RoadRaven]

Well said equus... wish you had been in the courtroom, commentating for us!
Sssssso funny!
:D

And thanks for all the links to women's cycling ladies - I'm bookmarking this thread...!

bmcca... you could get a special certificate to ride with your meds, our Floyd (I still believe) rode despite the pain killers and meds he was on for his hip!

[RoadRaven]

So maybe there could be a ladies Tour de France? At the rate the pro riders are hitting the confessional and admitting that they doped in their past attempts for greatness, there'll be room for new clean riders to fill in. TE could fill the void!

If selected, I will wear the "Red Lantern" with pride
:p

[PinkBike]

at one time there was a women's tour
http://www.topendsports.com/events/tour-de-france/women.htm

to erik zabel: say it aint so

[Kitsune06]

Do you ever really hear that much about female dopers in the sport?

[equus123]

Do you ever really hear that much about female dopers in the sport?

no! nothing! i find it weird and interesting. it seems as if men's and women's cycling are almost two different sports anyway. now with the doping situation, it seems even moreso. don't you think? oh those boys... :mad:

[missymaya]

Disclaimer:Saying this as somebody who's been riding less than 2 years and just now realized that she wants to race and doesn't know too much on the racing end(so what I'm saying might not be right):
There could be less women in cycling who dope because it's not as competitive i.e., as many participants, sponsors, televised and promoted, in the public. Maybe the women who compete at that level are just trying to get the sport moving and keep the momentum, promoting to an audience who is just now embracing it (the general public). Men's cycling is heavily promoted, has lots and lots of participants, and people all over see at as a popular sport and supports it. Look at the Tour de France: The Men's tour is televised and talked about, even amongst popular sports stations like ESPN and then there was the Women's tour, which lasted for not that long and not nearly as popular amongst the general public or popular sports stations. So, the need to win is still pretty big for the women, but there's also a need to promote the sport in general, due to the lack of popularity and doping would only hinder that tremendously.
That's just from where I'm standing and I could be wrong. Hopefully that helps.
But, the whole doping thing just sucks 'cause it makes all racers look bad and this case is just making that worse. We need to draw the line on doping in all sports aka no doping!

[teigyr]

missymaya - I agree with you. I think there are differences, also, between mens and womens sports. We love going to WNBA games because there is a different atmosphere, it isn't all showboating, and the women seem to have a different view on the whole thing.

I don't know enough about mens vs. womens cycling to make an educated statement on it but I wonder because it is "less popular", there is less pressure? Also, I am sure the money/sponsorship isn't equal between the genders. (I know it is popular and that there is pressure, of course, but the mens gets more publicity.)

Maybe if we had true equality then the women would feel as compelled as the men to cheat but for now, it works.

One last thought that I hope isn't true, could it be that in the high-ranking womens cycling community that there is less scrutiny than what is with the men? ie maybe it does happen but it isn't as much of a witch hunt?

[Fredwina]

I Think it several things:
1. Not the Boy's club- witness TE vs. the "other" cycling board
2. Less money involved, which means that the riders and teams can't afford to buy the "products" needed, plus the folks involved are more likely doing it for the love of the sport.
They are some women doper - look up Genevieve Jeanson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genevi%C3%A8ve_Jeanson), but she the only one I know of.

[equus123]

One last thought that I hope isn't true, could it be that in the high-ranking womens cycling community that there is less scrutiny than what is with the men? ie maybe it does happen but it isn't as much of a witch hunt?

yeah...you hope they don't care as much because its "women's" sports and the "who cares about that" kind of attitude.

[teigyr]

I personally love womens sports because I think more people do it for the love of the sport instead of the money. Maybe that is where the corruption is in mens sports?

[missymaya]

There is a woman track cyclist that was caught doping, but I can't remember her name for the life of me.

[snapdragen]

Do you ever really hear that much about female dopers in the sport?

I do, but I don't remember her name. I'll have to see if I can find it.

[smilingcat]

I've been trying to stay away from this boo ha ha with Floyd, doping, LeMond, the phone call etc. cause the whole thing really stinks. And I mean everything and everyone.

Someone pointed out that USADA (whatever the the acronym) gets part of its funding from the govt. so there is a temptation to hang someone dry to say "see-- see, we need money for enforcement..." Then what's LeMond doing in the pic? What does he have to contribute to this sordid/sorry affair. He's not part of the French lab, he's not part of Landis camp nor associated closely with big teams...

I wish this whole thing was just a bad nightmare and I wish we all get back to our riding for the love of sport.
---------------
now boys vs womens cycling... Like eden said on another thread why spend hundreds of $$$ on things like EPO so you can pick up a preems worth $10.00 at a crit. Just doesn't really makes any sense to me... But on the mens circuit winning is big $$$ where it pays.

The other thing I've noticed too is that, well atleast for me, winning isn't everything and winning by cheaing is just so defeating emotionally. Such a win seems so hollow. But to a lot of men, winning is at any cost. And many of them just don't seem to care if it means to cheat a little or cheat a lot.

Again I just wish everyone on this monkey business stop pounding their chest and put away their over inflated egos and get to the business of reality. Tell the truth, admit that you've made mistakes in handling of the samples and truth may never be known about Mr. Landis use of drugs and be done with it. And for Mr. Landis to come clean with some explanation of some odd comments made about Mr. Le Monde

The whole thing is such a circus now, I'll abstain from making any judgement.

---------------
Please don't get me wrong when I mention about hollow win, that I have had experience of winning with drugs. For the record, I hate drugs even painkillers. I hate the out of control feel of many of these drugs.

smilingcat

[RoadRaven]

I almost wish this thread could be split - the Landis thread, and the Women's pro-cycling thread.

Both are great convos!

So here first... women's cycling and my 2cents

Re women's cycling not being so obvious in the public eye - we are fighting (in the Western world at least) a loooong social history of how women are perceived. And that takes time to change. And even longer, apparently, for media and advertisers to think they have to 'get with the programme' too.

Women's sports rarely set "world fastest times", they tend to set women's bests. No women will ever match O'Bree's 1 hour record - probably not even with the use of drugs. No women will ever ride in a team with men like Lance and Floyd. Our physiology is just too different.

And this is the crux of the issue, I believe.

Media believe they should portray the best, and til they are willing to take a chance and realise that there is a big following of men and women for womens sports, we wont see it "out therre". And to make the following bigger, it needs to be supported by media. Catch 22.

[RoadRaven]

Post Deux

Landis...
I believe in him
I believe that the testosterone accusations are bunk - why on earth would you take a useless drug (well, a one off hit of testosterone is pointless) when you know you will be tested if you get placed???
Crazy

I'm with you, as so many other, Smiling Cat
I reserve judgement and continue to believe in our GEM

[PinkBike]

re:women and biking and doping,

Diane Modahl is one woman athlete who tested positive for doping and was later cleared
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/15/newsid_2559000/2559981.stm

re: bjarne riis

i've admired bjarne riis since seeing "overcoming," which is a great dvd. now he says he doped to win the tour. eric zabel and rolf adag admitted. telekom's Bert Dietz, Christian Henn and Udo Boelts admitted. jan ullrich was on the same telekom/t-mobile team and now they're talking about cutting him some slack due to the team dynamics at play.

i think maybe the UCI and the pro tour should announce an amnesty day - any rider who ever doped could come clean on that one day with no repercussions. the only censure would be for the team's directors and doctors if they were aware of any doping practices. all old samples and test results would be thrown away. no wins would be voided. we could start with a clean slate.

unless this is done we're not going to get a complete or honest picture of how rampant this practice is or was, and i think until recently it was very common.

i'm sure there are a bazillion holes in this suggestion but i'd like some closure followed by some new starts.

[teigyr]

I hope Floyd is innocent; he seems sincere and since he fought to make his hearing open for people to see, it seems like there is nothing to hide.

I think there is so much we'll never know and sometimes the elite cycling circuit seems not very desirable.

[ridethewind]

There is a woman track cyclist that was caught doping, but I can't remember her name for the life of me.

You may be thinking of Tammy Thomas.

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/11333.0.html

[missymaya]

Thanks ridethewind, that's exactly who I was thinking of.

[Trek420]

I almost wish this thread could be split - the Landis thread, and the Women's pro-cycling thread.

Both are great convos!

So here first... women's cycling and my 2cents

Re women's cycling not being so obvious in the public eye - we are fighting (in the Western world at least) a loooong social history of how women are perceived. And that takes time to change. And even longer, apparently, for media and advertisers to think they have to 'get with the programme' too.

Women's sports rarely set "world fastest times", they tend to set women's bests. No women will ever match O'Bree's 1 hour record - probably not even with the use of drugs. No women will ever ride in a team with men like Lance and Floyd. Our physiology is just too different.

And this is the crux of the issue, I believe.

Media believe they should portray the best, and til they are willing to take a chance and realise that there is a big following of men and women for womens sports, we wont see it "out therre". And to make the following bigger, it needs to be supported by media. Catch 22.

Or start a new thread on womens sports.

We don't get the money, coverage, sponsorship, salary .... but if you take the biggest pro sports fan, men or women that you can think of to a womens pro game and here it doesn't matter if it's WNBA, pro softball, soccer, American football or of course cycling and you'll hear this:

"wow, they play the game the way it's supposed to be played".

I'm not a fan of most sports and I truly suck at any team sport. But womens basketball for example does not have the speed, power, dunks of the mens game but I'm told by those who enjoy the game that the strategy is better.

[Fredwina]

well, it so happens that one of the more prestigious women's race (the Tour De l'Aude) is happening right now:
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?p=205693#post205693

[KnottedYet]

"wow, they play the game the way it's supposed to be played".


That's exactly how I feel when I watch women's college basketball.

Now I want to see some women's cycling!

[traveller_62]

I don't know if Landis cheated or not but it is clear that cycling has a long history of the illegal use of performance enhancing drugs. If anything good comes out of the Landis case I hope that it is that professional sport cycling cleans up its act and also that the methods for drug testing become much more rigorous then they are now.

As a scientist I'm appalled at the violations of good laboratory practice that are clearly happening at some of these labs. Someone in this thread mentioned the OJ case and there are some similarities in that the folks that handled the blood/DNA evidence in that case so badly mishandled the samples that reasonable doubt was guaranteed.

To get a valid result from a drug test the sample must be handled correctly, the instrumentation must be well-maintained and calibrated, and the analysis must be performed by an experienced technician. In Floyd's case there were breaks in the chain of custody of the sample, the sample itself failed to pass WADA's own criteria for additional (more sensitive) testing, there was confusion in the labeling of the sample (casting doubt on which rider the sample came from), and the instrumentation used to do the measurements was not properly calibrated.

As far as I'm concerned the methodology for drug testing in cycling needs to be seriously scrutinized and subjected to the same scientific rigor and review that my research data are. Until this is the case we will continue to have these media-driven circus trials that focus on the significance of the color of the defendant's neck tie.

As for Floyd's character...well, I guess if someone accused me of something I didn't do and I was subject to incredible pressure by the media, etc. I'm not sure I would be able to hold it together and take the high road all of the time either.

As for women's cycling...I think the power of the web might be the answer to broadcasting more women's events independent of network or cable TV. The web coverage of the Tour of Californnia was awesome and it would be too cool to use that same infrastructure and technology to get women's cycling on the map!

- traveller