Noisy brakes & rough front rim

[RolliePollie]

Being a newbie, I generally do not know if something is working right on my bike or if something needs to be fixed. But my front brakes are driving me bonkers! I don't know if this is something I can fix or if I need to take my bike to the shop. Here's my theory:

When I first got my bike, I think sand or grit got on the brakes pads right away. My brakes were very noisy on my very first ride, but I didn't know this was not normal, so I kept riding. Then fianlly someone told me this was not normal, so I looked at the brake pads and noticed tiny pieces of grit embedded in the pads. I picked it all out and the sound went away. But wouldn't you know it, a couple rides later, here come the noisy brakes again. Same thing...cleaned the pads. Then I noticed the rims are not very smooth on the front wheel. So I used some steel wool and gently rubbed them smooth again. Now I seem to be able to go about 50 miles before my brakes get noisy and I have to go through this whole picking out the grit/rubbing the rims routine again. Today I was examining the grit more closely and realized it is teeny tiny pieces of metal. Are my rims actually losing little pieces of metal which then get embedded in the brake pads? If so, how do I stop this from happening? I can't figure out what is going on here. It only happens on my front wheel. If anyone can help me out, I'll be very grateful! :)

[DebW]

New bike and wheels? Are the rims old? What kind of rims (size, brand, model)? Silver or anodized black or gray? Machined sidewalls?

A good procedure is to pick the grit out of your brake pads, then rub them with sandpaper. If the rims feel rough, smooth them down with steel wool and then clean them with rubbing alcohol. Or just use the rubbing alcohol to clean them. How often you have to do that depends on the roads you ride on. Losing bits of metal from the rims constantly isn't a good thing. Rims do wear thin from braking with gritty pads. Eden had a rim explode after it had worn too thin. If this is an old rim, you might think about replacing it soon. If it's a fairly new rim, then I'm not sure what to tell you, except to clean the pads and rims as soon as there is any indication of grit in them, and watch your rims carefully.

[RolliePollie]

Thanks, DebW. Sounds like I'm on the right track with the cleaning but I'll try the rubbing alcohol. I forgot to mention I've also been rubbing the brake pads with an emery board to try and smoothe them out a little. Then I wipe them off with a damp rag to get the emery board grit off. I'll try rubbing alcohol next time.

My bike and rims are new...just bought the bike in February. The rims say AT450 Axelrims SSE on them...I don't know what they are made of. It's an entry level road bike so I'm sure they're lower end. Size is 700 x 25. The trails I ride are very clean, the roads are a little sandy here and there, but improving as we get farther into spring.

I was reading the thread about the exploding rims and that's what spurred me on to post my question. I am quite good at falling on my own...the last thing I need is an exploding wheel to help me out!

THANKS for the advice!

[Zen]

Hmmm......i have a new bike and had the same problem. It sounded as though the brake pads had been replaced by sandpaper pads.
LBS dude said this was normal for a new bike and it seems to have gone away. I have enough to get used to with this bike, I sure don't need any exploding rims!

[silver]

I have this problem on my Trek 1000. It's an entry level bike. Ithink it has the same rims that you are talking about. I did some research on it and found that it's common on entry level rims and the brake pads that are used. some info recommended a softer brake pad but I never did find the ones that were recommended and eventually gave up and just dig the metal bits out occasionally.

Do some searches on the internet on it. I was surprised by how many people had the same problem but the guys at the shop acted like they never heard of it.

Honestly I think that the best solution is eventually upgrading your wheels and brake pads.

[RolliePollie]

Ahhhh...so perhaps this is a Trek 1000 problem...that's what I'm riding! I guess I'll just keep cleaning the brake pads and make sure I always have my Leatherman with me on rides just in case I need to pick out some metal.

I'm really glad I bought an entry level bike to start out. It's giving me the opportunity to learn about different things I'll want to change when I'm ready to upgrade. I guess as long as the brakes keep working (knock on wood!), I can tolerate a little brake pad/rim maintenance!

[silver]

Ahhhh...so perhaps this is a Trek 1000 problem...that's what I'm riding! I guess I'll just keep cleaning the brake pads and make sure I always have my Leatherman with me on rides just in case I need to pick out some metal.

I'm really glad I bought an entry level bike to start out. It's giving me the opportunity to learn about different things I'll want to change when I'm ready to upgrade. I guess as long as the brakes keep working (knock on wood!), I can tolerate a little brake pad/rim maintenance!

I've ridden that bike over 2500 miles with no problem. I did taco the back wheel and it was replaced, but with an equally low end wheel. And the brake pads with the metal bits were not replaced either.

It's a great bike and I don't think that this little problem detracts from it's usefulness.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Most brake pads are not perfectly aligned to hit the rim in an exact flat position when you brake. Usually when you brake, they are slightly off and either touch/skim the rim with their rear end first, or with their front end first, and then clamp down evenly with full pressure applied.

If your brake pads touch your rim first on their front end ("toe-in") as you brake, the touching part skims/cleans debris off the rim first when braking begins, and the debris does not get under the pads.
If your brakes are in "toe-out" slant, the back end of the brake pad touchs the rim first and any debris/grit/gunk on the rim gets gathered up under the pad and then mashed down between pad and rim at full brake position.
Toe-out position is also known for producing squeaky braking.
See if your LBS can adjust the brake pads so they hit the rim front end first (toe-in). If they know what they are doing, they will understand what you want.

[Zen]

Trek Pilot here

[KnottedYet]

I've heard the salmon colored Kool-Stop pads are good replacements for sqeaky brakes.

My LBS has a bunch of colors, and the guys said the softer ones make less noise and such, but wear away faster so you have to keep an eye on them.

[silver]

I've heard the salmon colored Kool-Stop pads are good replacements for sqeaky brakes.

My LBS has a bunch of colors, and the guys said the softer ones make less noise and such, but wear away faster so you have to keep an eye on them.

Those are the brake pads that were recommended to correct this problem.

this is not just road debris in the brake pads but slivers of metal from the rim.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Those are the brake pads that were recommended to correct this problem.

this is not just road debris in the brake pads but slivers of metal from the rim.

Interesting. I have Kool Stop brakes pads. But I put them on to help grip in the rain, not because I had squeaky brakes, after almost having total brake failure once in the pouring rain.
If you read the info about KS pads, it says how they have little wedge shapes on their front ends, which help push off the rim debris as the brake comes down on the rim. Pretty much what I was talking about above about toeing-in. Toeing-in brakes and KS pads with wedges are both sort of like the idea behind those old "cow-catchers" that train locomotives used to have in front, to hurl cows and other "debris" off the tracks before the train ran over them. :rolleyes:
I can't imagine having slivers of metal coming off one's rims though! Time for better rims maybe?? :eek:

[silver]

Interesting. I have Kool Stop brakes pads. But I put them on to help grip in the rain, not because I had squeaky brakes, after almost having total brake failure once in the pouring rain.
If you read the info about KS pads, it says how they have little wedge shapes on their front ends, which help push off the rim debris as the brake comes down on the rim. Pretty much what I was talking about above about toeing-in. Toeing-in brakes and KS pads with wedges are both sort of like the idea behind those old "cow-catchers" that train locomotives used to have in front, to hurl cows and other "debris" off the tracks before the train ran over them. :rolleyes:
I can't imagine having slivers of metal coming off one's rims though! Time for better rims maybe?? :eek:

Lisa, to the best of my memory, when I did the research a while back, the reason that the Kool Stop pads were recommended to help with the problem was because they were made of a softer material. Is that right?

I think the problem is the combination of the stock pads and the stock rims. Just not a good combination. But these are low end rims.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Lisa, to the best of my memory, when I did the research a while back, the reason that the Kool Stop pads were recommended to help with the problem was because they were made of a softer material. Is that right?

I have not heard of KS pads being recommended to stop squeaky brakes. They are made for gripping better under wet conditions- that is why they are softer....like snow tires! But maybe they do help with brake noise- I don't know because I haven't had squeeky brakes. I do notice that the KS pads grip better and stop me faster- I had to be careful the first week to not brake too suddenly. :eek:
I do know that one can usually stop squeaky brakes (of any kind) by toeing-in the brake pads.
It is true that ALL brake pads tend to get hard and brittle over time and then they do start to squeal, and should be replaced every few years regardless, because they can't grip as well once the rubber has hardened from age.

[DebW]

Most brake pads are not perfectly aligned to hit the rim in an exact flat position when you brake. Usually when you brake, they are slightly off and either touch/skim the rim with their rear end first, or with their front end first, and then clamp down evenly with full pressure applied.

If your brake pads touch your rim first on their front end ("toe-in") as you brake, the touching part skims/cleans debris off the rim first when braking begins, and the debris does not get under the pads.
If your brakes are in "toe-out" slant, the back end of the brake pad touchs the rim first and any debris/grit/gunk on the rim gets gathered up under the pad and then mashed down between pad and rim at full brake position.
Toe-out position is also known for producing squeaky braking.




If you read the info about KS pads, it says how they have little wedge shapes on their front ends, which help push off the rim debris as the brake comes down on the rim. Pretty much what I was talking about above about toeing-in. Toeing-in brakes and KS pads with wedges are both sort of like the idea behind those old "cow-catchers" that train locomotives used to have in front, to hurl cows and other "debris" off the tracks before the train ran over them. :rolleyes:


Lisa,

You've got it right about toe-out causing brake squeal and toe-in reducing it. But I think you've got it backwards about plowing and debris. Toe-in would tend to trap debris between pad and rim. The KoolStop wedges point backwards to scrape water and debris off the rims.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Lisa,

You've got it right about toe-out causing brake squeal and toe-in reducing it. But I think you've got it backwards about plowing and debris. Toe-in would tend to trap debris between pad and rim. The KoolStop wedges point backwards to scrape water and debris off the rims.

Oh I see what my error is!- I am thinking of the wheel as going backwards!!! :eek: D'OH! :eek: Not enough espresso!!!!!!! Right theory- wrong rotation direction. :rolleyes:
Yes indeed- the "Toe-in" position would have the REAR end of the pad hitting the rim first, and thus clearing the rim of debris before it gets under the brake pad as it clamps down. Heck, they should really call in the "heel-in" position, shouldn't they? And yes, the wedges on the KS pads are on the REAR end of the pads.
Thanks for the correction, wouldn't want to confuse anyone! :)

[DebW]

Oh I see what my error is!- I am thinking of the wheel as going backwards!!! :eek: D'OH! :eek: Not enough espresso!!!!!!! Right theory- wrong rotation direction. :rolleyes:
Yes indeed- the "Toe-in" position would have the REAR end of the pad hitting the rim first, and thus clearing the rim of debris before it gets under the brake pad as it clamps down. Heck, they should really call in the "heel-in" position, shouldn't they? And yes, the wedges on the KS pads are on the REAR end of the pads.
Thanks for the correction, wouldn't want to confuse anyone! :)

To avoid more confusion, the term "toe-in" is accepted to mean that the front of the pad hits the rim first. "Toe-out" is the rear of the pad hitting first. Pads should contact the rim either toe-in or flat. Toe-out often produces vibration and hence squeal. Though any pad is probably hitting flat when the brake is squeezed hard, hence the rear-facing wedges do their job of scrubbing water off the rim.

[silver]

The issue that I'm referring to on my 1000 is not just "squeaky" brakes. I agree that toe-in does correct "squeaky" brakes.

But the issue here is a scraping noise that the brakes make. When we examine the brake pads, there will be slivers of metal in the brake pads.

The Kool-Stop salmon pads were not recommended to correct "squeaky" brakes but to help eliminate the abrasion that was creating the slivers on this low end rim. The thought was that the stock pads were too hard for this low end rim.

does that make sense? two different issues

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

The issue that I'm referring to on my 1000 is not just "squeaky" brakes. I agree that toe-in does correct "squeaky" brakes.

But the issue here is a scraping noise that the brakes make. When we examine the brake pads, there will be slivers of metal in the brake pads.

The Kool-Stop salmon pads were not recommended to correct "squeaky" brakes but to help eliminate the abrasion that was creating the slivers on this low end rim. The thought was that the stock pads were too hard for this low end rim.

does that make sense? two different issues

Silver,
I see from your BikeJournal stats that you ride a LOT of miles. Maybe you deserve a rim upgrade? ;)

[RolliePollie]

Silver - I'm having the same sound...not squealing but more like a grating sound. It's really not a nice sound. And not nice knowing that I'm wearing down my rims every time I brake! Luckily, living in a rural area, I don't have intersections and such where I have to come to a complete stop very often. I do have hills though...but usually the downhills are followed by uphills so I don't want to brake and lose my momentum.

I'll look at my brake pads tomorrow to see if they're toeing in or out. That concept makes so much sense! For a new rider like me who is only averaging about 75 miles a week right now, a little extra brake pad maintenance is ok. I think I can put up with this and stay safe through this season. Sounds like maybe upgrading the wheels and brake pads would be a good idea for next season.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

For a new rider like me who is only averaging about 75 miles a week right now...

Hey whaddya talkin'?!! 75 miles a week is not an "only"!! :)

[silver]

Silver,
I see from your BikeJournal stats that you ride a LOT of miles. Maybe you deserve a rim upgrade? ;)


Lisa, this is my old bike that I'm referring to. the one that I wrecked. most of my miles are on my lovely new Madone. The old one is delegated to bad weather and nasty conditions already. I'll probably try to get some of those kool stop pads eventually, but I wont be putting any money into it.


Even though I don't have this particular problem (actually i have no problems at all) on my madone, I am longing for even nicer wheels on it....lighter....faster... Maybe next christmas....

OK finally had time to pull one of those links......

http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/Brake_Pad/product_20455.shtml

[RolliePollie]

Hey whaddya talkin'?!! 75 miles a week is not an "only"!! :)

I want to do closer to 100 a week! But unfortunately, that darned job of mine makes it hard to ride as often as I'd like. And also unfortuntately, the 75 is usually one flat 35-40 mile ride and two 18-20 mile rides. I'd much rather be doing 5-6 days of shorter rides. Uh oh, am I doing that thread drift thing? ;)

Back to the brakes...why the heck did Trek put this combination of rims and pads together if they don't get along well? I am learning a lot about how much money you can easily spend upgrading even an entry level bike. But it's worth it so I'm really not complaining. I'll just have to add "really good wheels" to my wish list for a new bike that I'll be purchasing SOMEDAY!!! In the meantime, I'll become an expert at removing those tiny shards of metal. And I'll go look for the Kool Stop pads too.

[RolliePollie]

I bought some Kool Stop pads today...got the black ones for dry conditions because it won't be wet around here again until October or November. Plus that's all they had at REI ;)

Are these pads something I can put on the bike myself or do I need to take it to the LBS? I'm kind of afraid I'll do it wrong and I don't want to end up with brakes that don't work. If it's easy and relatively fool-proof, I'll do it. As usual, here I am, a big newbie looking for more advice!

[DebW]

Are these pads something I can put on the bike myself or do I need to take it to the LBS? I'm kind of afraid I'll do it wrong and I don't want to end up with brakes that don't work. If it's easy and relatively fool-proof, I'll do it. As usual, here I am, a big newbie looking for more advice!

Pretty easy and almost foolproof. I'll assume you have standard road brakes rather than cantilevers or V-brakes (those pads attach a bit differently). The pads should attach to the brake caliper arms with a single allen bolt. If so, loosen the allen bolt on your current pads. Hold the pad so it won't turn while you loosen. If the pad is close to the rim, you'll need to make room to remove it either by opening the brake's quick release or removing the wheel. After you've removed one of the old pads, putting in the new ones should be obvious. KoolStop pads are designed to have the wedge shapes on the pad pointing backwards, so make sure you know which end to point forwards (it may be inscribed on the side of the pad or on the package). Position the new pad so that it contacts solidly against the full width of the rim and hits the rim flat or slightly toe-in (ie. front end first) if that is possible. Position the pad in the caliper, tighten it lightly, then squeeze the brake to see where it hits the rim. Reposition if necessary. When you're happy with the pad position, tighten it down very tightly. Often the pad will want to turn as you tighten, so hold it to counteract that turning force.

If your old pads were very worn and the brakes had been recently adjusted, you may find these pads too close to the rim or possibly even rubbing it. If so, you'll need to loosen the cable anchor bolt to readjust the pad spacing. If you loosen the cable, be sure to tighten the anchor bold very tightly.

[Zen]

I haven't looked at the brake pads yet but I definitely have the same scraping sounds. Looks like time for the Kool - Stops, I can't afford to wear out my rims.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

[RolliePollie]

Thanks, DebW! Wow, you are a great resource!!! :D Sounds like this is something I should be able to do.

I can't wait to ride with the new KS pads. I think I'm getting into a bad habit of trying to use my rear brakes more because I don't want to hear that front brake noise and know that my rims are getting eaten up. My rear brakes are nearly silent...I hope my front brakes will be the same!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Pretty easy and almost foolproof. I'll assume you have standard road brakes rather than cantilevers or V-brakes (those pads attach a bit differently).

I have side pull brakes on my Rivendell and we had to buy new brake shoes along with the KoolStop pads because they wouldn't fit on my existing brake shoes. So we got the set- the shoes with the KS pads.

[DebW]

I should have mentioned the one thing you can do wrong when replacing brake pads. Sometimes the shoe (metal part that holds the pad) has one open end so that the rubber pad can be easily replaced. The open end must point towards the back of the bike. Otherwise you may squeeze your brakes and have the pad fly out, leaving a bare metal shoe to contact your rim. :eek: :eek: I don't believe KoolStop pads are like this, but there is still a front and back.

[RolliePollie]

Kind of an interesting follow-up on my noisy brakes issue...

Yesterday afternoon I successfully put on my new Kool Stop brake pads. But then I noticed something. The left pad was too high and was touching the rubber on the tire. No matter what I did, I couldn't get it adjusted any lower. So I called my LBS for help. Seems that this is a problem he's seen before on Trek 1000's. I took it in and he concluded that the entire brake mechanism is machined incorrectly. The arms are just too short to reach the rims properly. His quick fix was the file down my brake pad a little...otherwise it wouldn't be safe to ride at all (rode the bike last night and I'm so impressed with the KS pads...no more horrible noise and they seemed to work better in general). Anyway, turns out the Trek rep was going to be at the shop this morning, so I took my bike back. He agreed that the brakes are faulty and they're sending a whole new set-up. Evidenlty 1000's are equipped with "wanna be" 105 brakes and they're basically junk. If the new set doesn't work either, I'm going to see if I can get them to upgrade me to 105's. My LBS is being so great about this. The owner seemed very disappointed in Trek for this design flaw. I'm just glad I noticed it before I went out riding and blew a tire!

[anaphase]

So I am thinking about replacing the pads on my Allez Elite (105s) because the stock pads seem really... well, not very good. Do you all like the Kool Stop pads? That is what I am thinking of getting.

Thanks in advance!

[Zen]

Your username gives me bad Bio 101 flashbacks :eek: