Need hydration advice

[ace]

Hi all,

Last year (my first summer cycling, and a very hot one) I had some huge problems with heat exhaustion. I would get home and have a bad headache that lasted for 24 hours, could barely speak. On one ride of about 35 miles when it was 95 degrees out, I weighed myself before and after, and I had lost 12 pounds (can you say "massive dehydration"??). So I got a 100 oz. Camelbak, started pushing fluids and adding electrolytes/nutrition to my water. However, I'm still having problems with getting headaches after a ride, though not as bad as before.

My stats are that I weigh 225. I did a 35 mile ride Saturday, and it was fairly hot, high seventies/eighty. I was on my bike for four and 1/2 hours. I drank 130 oz of water during the ride mixed with GU2O, then came home and had a 12 oz glass of water with Accelerade in it. I weighed six pounds more when I got home than before I left (and all I'd eaten was a bowl of cereal and a packet of GU)!

Obviously I am doing something wrong, my guess is drinking too much. But I'm terrified of not drinking enough because of my run-ins with heat exhaustion last year. How can I figure out how much to drink?

Advice, please?

Thanks,
Amy

[missymaya]

Rememer that the weight that you might be gaining is water weight that will get peed and sweated out. Also, when weighing yourself, you need to do it the same time of the day. If you weigh yourself at 11 am before a bike ride compared to 3pm afterward, there's bound to be a difference. Also, if your weighing yourself after you drink without peeing, the water is still there.
Based on that, if it gets hot, drink, drink, drink!!! And don't drink a lot at once, just enough to satisfy. Make sure that your getting the proper nutrients while riding and the correct quantities for distance. I don't drink the same amount of water on 15 mile ride than a 30 mile ride.
Also, make sure that your eating right too, both before, during, and after riding. Fruit contains a lot of water and nutrients, so I try to have some fruit before and after riding. This could also be affecting weight and hydration.
Hope this helps and stay hydrated!

[teigyr]

When I lived in SoCal and had heat problems, a person recommended that I put Endurox into one of my water bottles. I know that some people are prone to having problems and it was explained to me why Endurox would be good (though it was, at the time, a recovery drink) and it appeared to work ok for me. I only used it for hot weather, however.

I was also told that once you start having problems, you are more prone to having them again. I never weighed myself but had all the classic symptoms like being chilled (in 100 deg weather), nauseous, and alternating between pasty white and beet red. Good times there :D

I'd say, maybe, get advice about electrolyte balance and all of that.

[ace]

Oh yeah...chills in 100 degree heat- that's exactly what happened to me last year.

Missymay, I've been told that one of the best ways to tell if you're drinking too much or little is to weigh yourself before and after a ride. Small variations aren't going to tell you much, but a 6 lb gain/12 lb loss is indicative of a water problem. I've read that drinking too much can be dangerous, so that's what I'm trying to avoid. Who knew that water consumption could be so complicated???

[smilingcat]

Hi Ace,

I'm not a nutritionist by any means but drinking too much water without replacing the electrolytes, minerals and carb is a bad thing. A 130oz (8 pints) during four and half hour doesn't seem excessive. Generally, if you drink too much on occasion, your body will flush it out your system (gotta go pee). or during hot weather you just sweat it out.

If the 130 oz was just water that may not be a good thing. You might be sweating out too much electros and minerals. Quick way to know if you don't have enough mineral, is to drink something like gatorade. (Not the best of sport drinks). If you don't find it salty and just sweet then you are probably short on electros and minerals.

As an experiment, get a small bottle of Gatorade and have a small glass when you haven't exercised for a while and hour or two after a regular meal. The drink should taste tad salty and really not that good. The try it again after a ride and see how your perception changes. This is a clue to your body's need of electro.

Bout the heat exhaustion. It has more to do with your core temperature getting too high than just lack of water. Drinking lots of water do help but if the core temperature stays elevated, you will suffer heat exhaustion.

----If my info isn't correct please let me know ----
Not sure if my info is still current but for heat exhaustion.
Get to a cooler place if possible at least into a shade. Lie down.
Get an icepack on the back of neck(get the icepack on the jagular vein), under the arm pits and the groin area. and drink some fluid with electros.

[indysteel]

I think you're smart to weigh yourself before and after a ride to see if you're underhydrating. Granted, I'm sometimes guilty of not drinking enough when I ride, but it sounds like you may have overhydrated this time around. One hundred and thirty ounces sounds like a lot of water to me for the ride that you did, but I don't know how much you sweat or how high your level exertion was. In any event, it sounds like you already know that drinking too much water can be dangerous.

I posted a question a few weeks ago about post-ride headaches. Lots of people get them it seems. After reading everyone's responses and reading up on exertion headaches, I came to the conclusion that no one solution works for everybody. For some, it seems to be a matter of hydration. For other its all about electrolytes. I've been taking two Excedrin the minute th ride is over and that seems to be helping. I also drink a 9-ounce bottle of water the first thing in the morning if I'm going for a ride that morning. I'll up that as it gets hotter. The fact that I often have to go the bathroom--sometimes badly--during morning weekend rides is a good sign to me that I'm not--at least with current temps--underhydrating. If I'm riding in the afternoon, I up my water intake during the day. I use Cytomax Energy drink during rides, along with water. I also drink some form of a recovery drink immediately after the ride--16 ounces of chocolate milk is my current favorite--and continue to hydrate the rest of the day.

Keep playing around with it. Here are a few articles on hydration from VeloNews.

http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/7994.0.html
http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/6239.0.html
http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/5139.0.html
http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/6162.0.html

[ace]

Thanks, all. Yes, excederin is my post-ride friend!

I am mixing an electrolyte replacement drink with my water already: http://www.gusports.com/html/gu2o.htm

I think the suggestion about drinking more pre-ride is a good one. I'm horrible about hydration, except during and after rides.

I'm interested to see how I do on my upcoming bike trip in Italy, when I'm hopefully going to be having at least one glass of wine with lunch in the middle of my ride :D

[mimitabby]

I'm going to chime in here about the electrolytes. You aren't excreting
pure water, are you?
If you lost 12 pounds, you lost a boatload of electrolytes at the same time! (minerals in your bloodstream)

Remember, women die from OVERHYDRATING. happens every year on some marathon, a woman drinks too much liquid and it kills her.

so don't just drink water if you have to ride in that kind of heat.

[ace]

Mimi, my camelbak is always water mixed with GU2O these days (electrolyte replacement). The day I lost the 12 lbs was before I figured out that I needed to drink more and add electrolytes.

[Kitsune06]

Here's where I chime in and say- for a long ride in the heat, gatorade or gu2O or whatever goes in a water bottle on the frame, and straight water into your camelbak. Or Elete or Nuun. I seriously think one of the best recent changes in hydration/replenishment that has come about is combining fluid intake and electrolyte intake, and leaving carb intake separate. Typically carb intake from cytomax, gatorade, etc etc, can upset the stomach during periods of high activity, when the body needs water. Nuun and elete are sugar/carb free (nuun is sweetened with sorbitol, elete is just seawater with potassium, magnesium, sodium, chloride, and sulfate) and also won't grow things in a camelbak bladder. (so gross to clean).
For carbs I hit my hammer flask. *shrug* it's been a good system so far. I haven't bonked yet, and the salty, brackish flavor of elete in the water disappears as one needs electrolytes, making it taste like straight water and seeming to buffer it, too... I don't get as 'urpy' drinking that as I do straight water. It might be worth a try.

[Running Mommy]

You might want to look into INFINIT. They do custom blends on their drinks to match your needs. Personally I need WAY more sodium in my drinks than most people when it's hot out. And in Phoenix... Well, it's ALWAYS hot!!
I had a lot of problems getting my hydration down and had similar things happen until I found them.
And if you have any questions they have great customer service. I had a chance to talk to the Rep at IMAZ and he was telling me that believe it or not his clientele is largely women. I guess we have unique needs??
Anyway, I'm not usually one to push a product, but I def. think this is worth a look.
Good luck!
http://www.infinitnutrition.us/

[KSH]

Well, I'm not sure if someone mentioned this or not... but...

I know for me, sometimes my headaches DO NOT COME FROM DEHYDRATION.

For example, this past Sat. I rode in 80 degree heat (nothing for Texas), for 40 miles with lots of hills.

Before the ride, from 7:30 AM to 11:00 AM I ate 800 caloires. During the ride from 11:00 AM to 2:30/3:00 PM I ate 8 cookies and 1/2 of a bananna. I paid for it later.

I drank plenty of water during the ride, along with Gatoraide. I knew I was fine, because I was peeing. When I don't pee, I know I haven't taken enough water/etc. in.

I had a horrible headache later on, and the only way I got it to kind of go away was by eating.

You didn't mention what you eat on a ride. Are you eating enough calories?

[Jenn]

Mimi, my camelbak is always water mixed with GU2O these days (electrolyte replacement). The day I lost the 12 lbs was before I figured out that I needed to drink more and add electrolytes.

AHA, so a Camelback isn't "FRED",....YES, I am going to start wearing mine then!:D

[Kitsune06]

Depends, Jenn. Some people think they are "freddish" and some think the big mtb packs are "freddish" while the little road ones aren't... I dunno. I think the whole "fred" or "not fred" preoccupation is too middle-school for real riders. ;)

[mimitabby]

Camelbak is SAFER. that's why i like it.
and it's a great place to put off some of the clothing i take off as the day gets warmer.

[Jenn]

Depends, Jenn. Some people think they are "freddish" and some think the big mtb packs are "freddish" while the little road ones aren't... I dunno. I think the whole "fred" or "not fred" preoccupation is too middle-school for real riders. ;)

Oh I do to, sorry my sarcasim gets the best of me sometimes, I don't care what I look like just as long as I'm comfortable (well, within reason):rolleyes:
We have like 4 camelbacks, but they are all desert cami since everytime DH was deployed they issue him one, it would go GREAT with my pink jersey!:D
We are going to HAVE to wear them, because DH got a headache that lasted for 3 days and he looked horrible when he got home.

[CyclaSutra]

This varies so much, person to person, temperature to temp, length of ride, etc.

But what I do for a long training ride is carry two bottles of Cytomax in my cage, mixed pretty strong, and then carry a camelbak of water on top of that. My little road Camel holds 70 oz, my bigger one 110. If I'm riding all day, I'll stop halfway and fill up again.

I try to drink when I'm thirsty, and if I'm climbing a lot that will be more often. But about 20-24 ounces per hour of fluids (a biggish cage bottle) is right for me. On the lesser side if it's cool, on the greater side if it's hot.

I may try those Polar bottles this summer when it gets really hot, but Wyoming is hardly ever really hot (jinx!). I also did try swallowing those E-caps electrolyte replacement at a Hammer event last summer, and they seemed to work well, but I'd rather drink my salt so I can taste it.

On an organized ride, where there are fuel stops, I'll just do one bottle of Cytomax and one of water, because I'll be stopping to get more within two hours. No bulky Camel on supported rides! Everything fits in the pockets. Even Twinkies, heh heh.

[ace]

Great advice, thanks everyone! I actually have some elete, but have never tried it. I probably should. See, when I'm riding, I really don't like eating. Drinking my calories is a lot easier.

I just did something that scared me. I looked at the body fat analysis I had done last year (I got tanked), and they worked up my caloric analysis for various activities. Based on that, I am burning 760 calories per hour if I'm biking 12-13.9 mph. So for three hours or so of riding, I burn 2300ish calories. Combining breakfast, my GU2O, and the GU I ate during the ride, I only took in 700 calories. Maybe just eating more will fix this.....I had no clue I was eating at such a deficit, because I don't get very hungry, and I don't feel tired. Just the headache.

[DarcyInOregon]

I just did something that scared me. I looked at the body fat analysis I had done last year (I got tanked), and they worked up my caloric analysis for various activities. Based on that, I am burning 760 calories per hour if I'm biking 12-13.9 mph. So for three hours or so of riding, I burn 2300ish calories. Combining breakfast, my GU2O, and the GU I ate during the ride, I only took in 700 calories. Maybe just eating more will fix this.....I had no clue I was eating at such a deficit, because I don't get very hungry, and I don't feel tired. Just the headache.

Ace, I hope you are doing solo rides to train and figure this kind of thing out, and not just doing weekend group rides. All of the cycling literature will tell you that a cyclist needs around 300 calories an hour, give or take, on top of the fluids. When you get out and bike, it is more than just pedaling the miles. You need to figure out how many calories an hour is best for you, and the calorie amount is different for shorter rides than it is for longer rides. You also need to figure out what to eat, because everyone is different, and what is perfect for one cyclist may not be perfect for you. And of course you need to figure out how much to drink and what to drink.

Yesterday Suzie and I did a metric century, 62 miles, into a strong wind, with some hills. We burned about 2800 calories, which is an estimate from our heart rate monitors. Going into the ride, we both knew that we would burn a lot of calories because we both cycle solo throughout the week, and it is something we think about all the time on our training rides. Eating breakfast and drinking before the ride, drinking right before the ride, eating and drinking during the ride, then eating and drinking after the ride - it is all critically important.

One thing to watch out for is that cycling for some of us reduces our appetite. But you have to think about how to fuel your body to be an effective cyclist, and you eat and drink because it needs to be done. You don't think, "Oh goody I don't feel hungry and I am not eating and so maybe I will lose some weight." It doesn't work like that at all. It is critically important to eat and drink at the right times, in the right amounts, and the right stuff.

Darcy

[SadieKate]

Here's where I chime in and say- for a long ride in the heat, gatorade or gu2O or whatever goes in a water bottle on the frame, and straight water into your camelbak. Or Elete or Nuun. I seriously think one of the best recent changes in hydration/replenishment that has come about is combining fluid intake and electrolyte intake, and leaving carb intake separate. Typically carb intake from cytomax, gatorade, etc etc, can upset the stomach during periods of high activity, when the body needs water. Nuun and elete are sugar/carb free (nuun is sweetened with sorbitol, elete is just seawater with potassium, magnesium, sodium, chloride, and sulfate) and also won't grow things in a camelbak bladder. (so gross to clean).
For carbs I hit my hammer flask. *shrug* it's been a good system so far. I haven't bonked yet, and the salty, brackish flavor of elete in the water disappears as one needs electrolytes, making it taste like straight water and seeming to buffer it, too... I don't get as 'urpy' drinking that as I do straight water. It might be worth a try.Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this. Folks need to know that the system will only digest a certain number of calories per hour and overloading it will slow down the absorption of water. In times of really hot weather, e-Caps or Elete can give you the extra electrolytes without piling on calories.

[ace]

Hi Darcy- I feel sort of attacked by the tone of your post, although I'm sure you are just trying to be helpful. Honestly, I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't want to do a better job hydrating/feeding myself on rides. I don't restrict my calories on a ride at all (or at least not on purpose), and I know it's not about eating/drinking when hungry/thirsty, but part of a thought-out plan. I obviously just haven't been too smart about eating enough- I was completely focused on drinking enough because I got so sick last year.

I don't have the luxury of doing other similar rides on my own during the week right now. I'm under doctor's orders that I can only do one longish ride a week (25-30 miles), then at most 1/2 an hour rides 3 other times a week. This is because my knee injury flares up if I do any more than that. So I get one shot a week to figure it out.

Just know I'm doing the best I can at the moment.

[Eden]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this. Folks need to know that the system will only digest a certain number of calories per hour and overloading it will slow down the absorption of water. In times of really hot weather, e-Caps or Elete can give you the extra electrolytes without piling on calories.

From what I've read most people can only digest 250-400 cals per hour. If you properly mix your cytomax (or most sports drinks) a bottle is around 150 -200 cals/bottle (depending on the size of your bottles), so you would want to experiment, but probably not exceed 1.5 to 2 bottles/hour (though I must say I could never consume that much without feeling bloaty.....). If you are using gels or bars you want to have some non-carb drink (water or water with electrolytes) to wash it down, especially with gels since you really need some water for them to work properly.

[ace]

This is a lot of stuff to think about. I think I'll try the elete next ride, combined with significantly more food during the ride, and see if that does the trick. Now I just gotta figure out what I can eat without feeling like I'm gonna puke.....:)

[DarcyInOregon]

Hi Darcy- I feel sort of attacked by the tone of your post, although I'm sure you are just trying to be helpful. Honestly, I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't want to do a better job hydrating/feeding myself on rides. I don't restrict my calories on a ride at all (or at least not on purpose), and I know it's not about eating/drinking when hungry/thirsty, but part of a thought-out plan. I obviously just haven't been too smart about eating enough- I was completely focused on drinking enough because I got so sick last year.



Sorry Ace. No that wasn't my intent to make you feel bad, for whatever reason. I just want you to be able to reach your goals. I am usually pretty specific in my language and don't have any underlying tones, at least I don't think so.

If you are only doing weekend rides, that might be part of your problem. Maybe others can address the situation. I know you are recovering from the knee problem, and that has limited you. But in cycling, to build our bodies, we need to cycle more than once a week. Perhaps it is the stress of doing a ride without the necessary training to lead up to it that is giving you problems? I am not saying this in a mean way, but as a way to help you analyze your specific situation.

Darcy

[ace]

Gotcha Darcy, no problem. I'm pretty direct myself, so just wanted to let you know how I felt. I appreciate your help :)

I don't think the one longish ride a week is the problem, but who knows. I am doing other things- four days of 1/2 hour rides, walking an hour a day a few days, and strength training 3 days. So I should be strong enough to do 35 miles once a week, I think. I'm under close supervision by both my chiropractor (who is an avid cyclist and is chiropractor to a couple of women's athletic teams at UC Berkeley) and my physical therapist (who's also a cycling coach), so I'll talk to them about it. I have the feeling, based on what I've read in this thread, that they'll just say "duh, you're not eating enough."

Based on what Kit said, I've already done some reading about the ineffectiveness of mixing hydration and nutrition, so I will try another path...

[mimitabby]

heck, now I'm confused.
how can we not mix nutrition and hydration?
that is, besides an IV?

[Jenn]

heck, now I'm confused.
how can we not mix nutrition and hydration?
that is, besides an IV?

You could mount a triple post to the handlebar, with a drip in the forearm and ride til your heart's content.!

[SadieKate]

Mimi, there are plenty of powders and capsules out there that provide the electrolytes only without any calories. You can easily over do the calories on really hot days requiring lots of liquid and electrolytes but not a lot of calories.

[aicabsolut]

Ideally, if you're getting the right amount of fluids, you'll weigh the same before and after. So 12lbs lost is obviously bad, but 6lbs gained isn't doing you any good either. You most definitely are not eating enough. For 4.5 hrs out on the bike you need waaay more calories than a bowl of cereal and a Gu, especially because of your stats. I've had some heat exhaustion symptoms when I'm pretty well hydrated just because I desperately need more food.

[maillotpois]

I struggle to take in solid food when it is really hot. I think someone mentioned using ice - I know SK had ice on her neck at Wildflower and I filled my sports bra with ice at every rest stop on DMD last Saturday. Reducing the core temperature really helps.

In terms of fluids, as it does get hotter, I tend to go more for the plain water and endurolye combination. Also V8 (the elixir of life). These things seem easier on my stomach than sports drinks. However, when temperatures are moderate I get a lot of calories from sports drinks. I think you just have to experiment and see what works at different temperatures and in different situations - it does sound, Amy, like you've had some improvement over your symptoms from last year. So that's good, right?

I had a wicked headache all morning Sunday after DMD. I drank a LOT of water Sunday and it gradually went away. I don't know if it was dehydration, but I suspect it was. There was just no way not to get behind in that ride.

We had a guy on our Death Ride team this year who suffered from heat exhaustion type symptoms. (He had to drop off the team unfortunately because he really was not well and I honestly think there was more to his issue than heat exhaustion.) But anyway, he did say something about his doctors telling him that once you have heat exhaustion "episodes" you are more likely to have this issue in the future. I don't know if it is true or not, it's just what he relayed.

[snapdragen]

But anyway, he did say something about his doctors telling him that once you have heat exhaustion "episodes" you are more likely to have this issue in the future. I don't know if it is true or not, it's just what he relayed.

I have heard this also, from some club members after I had my "episode".

[maillotpois]

We also had a guy on the team once who had 3d degree burn scars over much of his body - he couldn't sweat and had a VERY hard time in the heat. He also ended up not being able to ride. Pretty wild.