Choosing an LBS

[pooks]

In my efforts to get my saddle and handlbars adjusted more comfortably, I'd take my bike to a bike shop or REI and ask if they'd watch me ride and give me advice. I'd always be buying stuff at the same time, and they always seemed happy to help.

But everybody had a different opinion. They all were supposed to know what they were doing, but one guy raised everything high, and the next woman freaked over it being wrong, wondered who the hell had done that, and lowered everything. This was consistant, no matter where I went. Whatever had been done before was wrong, and they were going to show me how to get it right.

As for me, every time they adjusted, the bike felt different, which I equated with better. It was only after riding awhile that I'd realize, no, this isn't right, either.

How does a newbie know how to choose a shop, who to listen to, who is right? Should I have just gone to the same person repeatedly until I got it right, assuming they'd learn from their mistakes?

My most recent experience: I took my husband's bike to the LBS to have his armadillo tires put on. It was my own fault -- I forgot to take the canvas tape out of his handlebar bag and give it to the guy, so the guy left the rubber in when he installed the tires. I wasn't complaining when I realized what I'd done, but I did make an "oh darn, I forgot to show these to you," remark.

He shrugged and said, "The rubber was fine, it didn't need to be changed." So I said, "That's good. I was told that canvas was the best and I should switch to it, so I'm just frustrated that I forgot."

He said, "Well, I think rubber is better."

I stared at him and bit my tongue. HE'S the one who sold me the canvas tape when I picked up my own armadillos and he put them on.

Grrrrr.

[li10up]

Hummm, good question. That's an easy one for me since we only have one LBS in town. Would have to travel 30 miles to get to the next closest one. I'd recommend talking to experienced riders more than a salesman somewhere. I guess when it comes down to it most everything is opinion when it comes to equipment. But I do think there are some basic "rules" like: Saddle is moved up until your hips start to rock from side to side...then move it down to the point where the rocking stops. Cleats should be positioned so that the ball of the foot is over the pedal spindal. Seat fore/aft should put your knee (tibial tuberosity) in line with the pedal spindal when your foot is in the 3 o'clock position. There may be more...but after that it all comes down to the comfort of the individual person - which takes into consideration riding style, flexibility, etc.

[mimitabby]

I actually got referrals right here on this board. and some of this is magic.
No matter how long your arms are, no matter how many inches of clearance you need, some people flex different from others and what works perfectly for one is not going to work for another. That's why people can say; oh, we'll move your handlebars 1/2" back and tilt this up a hair... and maybe that time it will
be AHHHH perfect..

So of course, once you get the fit you want, dont mess with it :D

[indysteel]

Pooks, I understand your frustration. I started riding last year and because of an innate desire to "know stuff," (I'm a lawyer; what can I say) I started reading up on lot of cycling-related topics--everything from fit to components to frame materials to wheels. You name it; I've likely done a little research on it. In the course of doing that, I've grown to understand that there are various schools of thought on just about everything in cycling. There may be majority and minority views, but there's rarely one "right answer."

As exhausting as it can sometimes be, all that information has helped me feel more confident in dealing with the folks at the various LBSs that I frequent. Some I've grown to trust more than others. Since there is usually no one answer on any given matter, I tend to distrust the ones who act like there is. I gravitate instead to the ones who are willing to take the time to discuss the pros/cons of something with me or to explain the "why" behind their advice. If they take the attitude with me that you have to know everything about bikes/cyling to know anything, I leave and never return (I have a previous post entitled LBS Rant that describes just such a situation). If they make it clear that I appear to already know more than they do (again, I've had this happen), I steer clear of them too. They're salespeople; nothing more and nothing less.

So, I spend a fair amount of time reading up on something before I buy/go to the LBS. I want to engage with them as intelligently as possible and, for me, that means doing some of my own legwork. Thanks to forums like this, roadbikereview.com and various sites that provide a wealth of information, I find it possible, though time-consuming, to do.

[pooks]

indysteel, you're right. Knowing something -- anything -- gives me more confidence when I approach somebody at the LBS. I particularly recall not hiding my skepticism when a bike guy tried to convince me that I would hate a Brooks saddle because it's "so hard." Scoff!

[Geonz]

I would say do not judge any bike shop on the first visit ... and see if you can figure out which *person* has a model of cycling that matches yours - or is the better listener and the least likely to size you up in an instant and have you "figured out" and not pay attention when you don't fit the model.

The really good listeners are rare treasures - most bike shop people you kinda have to break in. However, you can help by telling them the things about you that "break the mold" so they pay attention. I try to figure out which slot I'm being filed in and then say something that will jolt me out of that slot... and then something else that will jolt me out of the next slot. Then I get listened to.
Now I'm a bike shop groupie anyway ...

[indysteel]

indysteel, you're right. Knowing something -- anything -- gives me more confidence when I approach somebody at the LBS. I particularly recall not hiding my skepticism when a bike guy tried to convince me that I would hate a Brooks saddle because it's "so hard." Scoff!

LOL. I've had some boneheaded things to me said as well. I went with a friend to a bike shop that I don't frequent so that she could test ride some Lemonds. The owner was helping her and said the following two things, both of which I think are just flat-out wrong. First, he doesn't adjust the fore/aft position of a saddle. His logic? The bike manufacturer places the saddle in the middle of the rails, so that's probably where it should stay. Second, he doesn't measure people for reach. He just asks customers whether they're comfortable on the bike after their test ride. Well, IMO, he should know that you can't necessarily figure that out during a short test ride. Sometimes, you don't know a bike doesn't fit until you've spent a miserable 50 miles on it.

He and I ended up getting in an argument about my custom wheels and he kept going on and on about his "20 years of experience" in the bike industry. Whatever.

[pooks]

Indy, that's just scary! Did your friend buy a bike from this jerk?

Which reminds me, the LBS where they appreciated my Brooks is very small, but they sell Lemonds.

[indysteel]

Indy, that's just scary! Did your friend buy a bike from this jerk?

Which reminds me, the LBS where they appreciated my Brooks is very small, but they sell Lemonds.

She did buy the Lemond from them. In fact, she just bought an MTB there too. She knows I can't stand the guy, but she's apparently satisfied with the level of service she's gotten. However, I have my doubts as to whether her Lemond really fits her. I think it might be too small, but she seems to be happy with it.

It's funny because she brought me with her specifically because I know more about bike fit than she does, but once we got there, I didn't feel like she really wanted to press the issue. I would have liked to see him put her and the bike on a trainer to look at her posture on the bike, take a few measurements, etc. Nope. It was more, here's the bike, now go ride it. Maybe it fits her, maybe it doesn't, but for $1800, I'd want to approach it a little more scientifically than he did.

[7rider]

How does a newbie know how to choose a shop, who to listen to, who is right? Should I have just gone to the same person repeatedly until I got it right, assuming they'd learn from their mistakes?



This is a perfect argument for finding a shop and developing a relationship with them.

When the folks in the shop know *you* and your riding habits, they are in a better position to help you out. So, yeah, if someone recommended some textbook "fix" for you on your bike, and it didn't work out, you can go back to them and say "You know, Joe. That adjustment you made just isn't working for me. I'm still getting [X - insert issue here]." And then they can say "Okay, Pooks. Try this and see how it goes." And so on, until you get it dialed in right with someone who knows you, knows your bike, and knows your issues. It's not a matter of "mistake", it's a matter of trial-and-error in getting a stock bike dialed in for you.

[missymaya]

wow, indysteel. That guy kinda frightens me and I dont even know him.
I would prefer to go to an LBS that is willing to listen to what my OPINION and consider that when helping find a bike/bike product. EX: I went looking around with my BF trying to find a commuter. Now, I say commuter I mean older steel/chromally road frame that is the appropriate size. Hey, there might be a chance that one of the several LBSs might sell old frames that people leave there. Well, none of them did and none them seem to listen to what I wanted. They all tended towards the cruiser/townie bikes. All I could think was "did you hear what I said or are you deaf! I want a road bike!! If I wanted a cruiser, I'll just have my BF build up one of his 50s-60s Schwinn steel frames made in the US and not by some crappy repro made in S.Korea that'll fall apart in 2 days!" :mad:
Another situation, my BF and I went to one of the large LBSs here and we were looking for some parts and waited at the mechanic counter for some help. We waited for almost 30 minutes:mad: ! Hello, willing and paying customers standing here asking for help!! We left not getting what we needed(thank you Ebay). Unfortunately, they have most of the stuff we need so Im very reluctant to go there. Why can't any of them just be cool.

Ok, done ranting about crappy LBSs. Point is, go somewhere they a). actually pay attention to you b). Listen to you and what you want.

[pooks]

Thanks, Regina. The shop I like going to best has so many different people working there on odd schedules, I frequently get there and the person I saw before isn't working that day. I've probably had four or five different people help me there. I need to figure out which one I trust and figure out their schedule, I guess.

[pooks]

missymaya, I know there's good reason to shop at LBS and keep the money/business local, but when it comes to accessories I've gotten the most help, the most polite help, etc. at REI. Not only that, but because we're coop members, we get a 10% rebate voucher at the end of the year on all the money we've spent there, and I can return anything within a year for a full refund, no questions asked.

When I have probs with the local LBS it makes me want to remind them of those facts, but I figure being shirty isn't the way to get good service. Sigh.

[silver]

I have a favorite shop where they know me by name. The manager took my bike home with him and back to the shop after my wreck when I was taken away by ambulance. They know my riding style and what I need and are very helpful. I stop by frequently and and I know who there really knows how to fit a bike. It takes time to establish a relationship.

I went to another shop once (the one where Mr. bought his bike) and the guy insisted that I must have a WSB. I told him that I was very comfy on my 58cm not-WSB and he just kept on going. Insisting that I would be more comfy. I'm thinking....you haven't seem me on my bike and can't you see that I'm built like a boy and my hands hang down to my knees? :rolleyes:

[pooks]

My problem so far has been that I'm so new to cycling, I don't have a point of reference to know that somebody has done a good job. I guess that comes with time and experience.

ETA: Just as Indy's friend thinks she's getting good service at that horrid shop. When you first start out, you simply don't know. It's possible that I've found an LBS I can trust -- the one that likes my Brooks and told me my bike is too small, which I've "known" for a long time but nobody had actually told me that, so I figured I was wrong.

I need to test some bikes there, but they're the smallest shop and least likely to have something I'll like; they don't carry any of the bikes I've liked online -- Bianchi, Cannondale, Jamis.

But, I don't know bikes. So if you see something here I should check out, let me know!


Colnago
Diamondback
DK
Felt
Gary Fisher
Hoffman
Lemond
Look
Raleigh
Redline
Sun
Torker
Trailmate

(That's a lot of brands. They don't seem to have that many in their shop. Maybe I'm wrong about their stock, though.)

[Trekhawk]

Colnago
Diamondback
DK
Felt
Gary Fisher
Hoffman
Lemond
Look
Raleigh
Redline
Sun
Torker
Trailmate

(That's a lot of brands. They don't seem to have that many in their shop. Maybe I'm wrong about their stock, though.)

LOL that is a lot of bikes. Being a Colnago owner and lover I would have to put a big plug in for them but Im not sure that its the type of bike you are after. Felt got some really good reviews in either this year or last years Bicyclling mag buyers guide. Some of the girls here ride Lemond so maybe they can give you some feedback on them. Oh so many great bikes to consider.:D

Have fun.:)

[indysteel]

ETA: Just as Indy's friend thinks she's getting good service at that horrid shop. When you first start out, you simply don't know. It's possible that I've found an LBS I can trust -- the one that likes my Brooks and told me my bike is too small, which I've "known" for a long time but nobody had actually told me that, so I figured I was wrong.

Pooks, that's why I go back to my original comment--that it pays to have some independent knowledge. While I love my friend to death and think she's a strong cyclist, she doesn't know a whole lot about bikes. In her defense, she is in school full time and works part-time. She likely doesn't have as much time on her hands as I do. But the fact remains that she has not put herself in a very good position to make an educated decision about the quality of the shop.

I agree with the comments, too, that it takes time to develop a relationship with a shop, but you'll be able to figure out relatively easily whether a particular LBS is even interested in developing a relationship with you. Ironically, I loved the guy I bought my bike from. He spent a lot of time with me finding a good bike and in tweaking it so it was speced to my liking. Unfortunately, however, I have found it difficult to develop any rapport with the store's maintenance staff and I don't particularly like the owner. So, while I stop in every once in a while to say hi, I don't bring my bike there for repairs and, consquently, I don't buy much gear there either. I don't feel obligated to shop there just because it's where I bought my bike.

Instead, I have a better relationship with two other shops--one of which is where I had my fitting. Great guys; great atmosphere. The other shop is where I bought my hybrid. I've since gotten to know the manager and maintenance guys. While I can't commend them for their fitting and sales, I do like them for repairs.

I know some people are so loyal that they only go to and buy from one shop. However, I have found it more helpful to be a self-described "bike shop flirt."

[mimitabby]

Indy, yeah, I like that term. bike shop flirt. i have a "relationship" with about 6 different shops. and I like to keep 'em guessing....


but this doesn't help Pooks.


Pooks, you have to buy stuff, try stuff out and see how they react.

[pooks]

Well, I've been buying stuff and trying stuff. I think I need to get a bike that fits then I'll have a point to start from.

Also, I never ride with anybody but my husband, and him only rarely. I'm guessing that if I ever rode in a group, people would have spotted my problems and given me advice. As it is, I'd ride around a parking lot a couple of times, trying to show them what was bothering me, then they'd raise or lower or whatever, and it never seemed to do the job.

[spazzdog]

I mentioned somewhere else on the board that I'm about to be "re-fitted" on my current bike.

I use the same LBS as Trek420 (she introduced me) even though it's a drive to get there (there are 2 LBS literally around the corner from me). I go to the further one because from the day I met the owner he was generous with his time and very open to discussing a variety of options. He is the only "wrench" that will ever touch my bike as long as I live here and his will be the shop I purchase a new bike from when the time comes.

The fit... he's not gonna have me come in and do a "look see" at how I ride; not yet. First he has me filling out a questionaire about ride style, goals, etc. Then we'll measure me... then he'll start tinkering with the bike setup. He does this with folks ordering expensive custom bikes, and he does it for customers that already have bikes.

I LOVE this guy!

spazz

[pooks]

That is so great, spazzdog. I hope to find somebody approaching that kind of coolness.

[spazzdog]

I'm lucky... and , admittedly, a gear-a-holic when I'm really into something. I love to talk about the stuff and Chris (bless his heart) is afflicted much the same way, except he REALLY knows what he's talking about.

I think part of finding a good LBS is being patient... you can't be in a big hurry to "get" whatever you're shopping for. The "sharks" will smell the blood and be all over you, convincing you that you "really need" such-or-so.

[withm]

Pooks

You are looking at a lot of different bikes and as you say, you are still sort of new to riding. I'm afraid you are going to have way too much information at your disposal and not have near enough experience to evaluate any of it fairly.

I think you need to ride a few different bikes, for a couple weeks at a time. Is there anyone you can borrow an older road bike from for a couple of weeks to try it out? Then maybe rent a bike from another shop and start to compare them. You need to sort out what features actually make sense to you and that you like/want/need, and to discover the things that won't work at all (poor fit notwithstanding). This will give you a head start - even if you can just ride a couple bikes, and will help you to put all these other opinions in perspective. Fit is so subjective that you will probably be fine tuning your bike for months before you declare it perfect. Then you'll go and lose 10 pounds, and have to do it all over again. :)

I was in very near your shoes a couple years ago but racking up the miles on a road bike that was way too small for me. When I started test riding bikes, I spent a couple months doing it and did not really worry about fine tuning the fit. If I could stand over it safely, extend my leg on the down-stroke, and reach the handlebars it was good enough for me. I needed to ride them for a couple hours to see if they were still as comfortable as they were in the first mile or two. Many of them were not. Big surprise. My bike shop was very accomodating in my taking longer test rides - and seems to me they even let me keep one overnight so I didn't have to return it before they closed (since it didn't get dark for a couple hours later).

When I narrowed my choice down to two models, I went back and rode each of them again and again, and still threw in another model too just to keep me on my toes. I'm sure the bike shop had had enough of me but they still worked with me, and suggested adjustments that might make the lesser (and much cheaper) one more compatible for me.

In the end I selected a bike that I still love. Now after 1-1/2 years on it, I have been playing with fine tuning the seat adjustment, but not really because it needs it, but my own curiosity wondering if I can make it better.
The point is that it can take some time on the bike to even know what you might want to change.

Since you are coming from a heavier, hybrid style bike, the transition to a road bike will really be dramatic. And the first few rides you may not even feel as though you are in control of the bike. There are many reasons for this, fit being among them. But don't get me wrong, I am not trying to belittle your experience. I went on a 2 week bike trip last fall on a hybrid, adnd when I came home and got on my own bike - oh my! It took a couple days to get used to the road bike again! I was so wobbly! I would never have believed the transition would be so pronounced after only 2 weeks if I hadn't experienced it myself.

Any road bike is going to be so much different from your bike that I think if you tried a few for extended periods it would really help you to focus on what you want.

They all feel good for 5 miles. After all, they are BIKES :). But after 25 miles that is when you really become aware of a bike's shortcomings (if there are any).

Good luck and happy shopping!
Martha