View Full Version : Must.ride.bicycle
silver
04-08-2007, 05:12 PM
I'm irritated, don't feel well, crabby, feel bloated, my legs itch. I'm restless and impatient.
It's been six days since I have ridden my bike. :( :( :( :( :(
HELP!!!!
Mr. Bloom
04-08-2007, 05:21 PM
I think it's the potato skins, wings, and cheese sticks she ate at dinner!:eek: :eek:
crazycanuck
04-08-2007, 05:27 PM
ME too..:( Must. Ride. Bike...
CrazyC-cycling addict..
C
silver
04-08-2007, 05:31 PM
I think it's the potato skins, wings, and cheese sticks she ate at dinner!:eek: :eek:
:p :p :p :p :p
Ah....I can eat those things because I ride. So I NEED to ride NOW!!!!!!! I told you not to move me North!!!!!!!!! ;)
silver
04-08-2007, 05:41 PM
ME too..:( Must. Ride. Bike...
CrazyC-cycling addict..
C
I'm such a wimp. A month and a half ago, I would have been happy to see weather like this....now it's TOOOOOO cold! :(
But I did do a little catch up on running and swimming.
makbike
04-08-2007, 06:15 PM
Silver I'm right there with you. It has been 4 days since I've been on my bike and I'm going crazy. I plan to ride tomorrow afternoon come h*ll or high water (neither is expected here in Shelbyville). The temps are suppose to break the 50's so I'm going to be brave and ride (hand and feet warmers will be activated). The rest of the week is hit or miss (cool and/or rain). I wish normal temperatures would return!
BleeckerSt_Girl
04-08-2007, 07:02 PM
Heck I'd be thrilled to see temps go up to the 40's! :rolleyes:
You guys are a bunch of wimps! ;)
solveig
04-08-2007, 07:19 PM
I hear ya. 3 days off the bike - two of which spent driving 1000 miles to retrieve a new transplanter from Michigan - and I'm READY for my Time Trial DVD tomorrow morning!
Stinking weather isn't helping. Could we wind up the snow showers for the season? Please?
Mr. Bloom
04-08-2007, 09:00 PM
Heck I'd be thrilled to see temps go up to the 40's! :rolleyes:
You guys are a bunch of wimps! ;)
Yep! We resemble that remark:p :p :p
roguedog
04-08-2007, 09:21 PM
Hello.. my name is RD and I'm a wimp...
Do I get my group hug now?? :p :p
silver
04-08-2007, 09:36 PM
Hello.. my name is RD and I'm a wimp...
Do I get my group hug now?? :p :p
*group hug* *passes tissue box*
silver
04-08-2007, 09:40 PM
Silver I'm right there with you. It has been 4 days since I've been on my bike and I'm going crazy. I plan to ride tomorrow afternoon come h*ll or high water (neither is expected here in Shelbyville). The temps are suppose to break the 50's so I'm going to be brave and ride (hand and feet warmers will be activated). The rest of the week is hit or miss (cool and/or rain). I wish normal temperatures would return!
I ride over to ride with ya.....OK? a century and a half!
7rider
04-09-2007, 05:58 AM
Heck I'd be thrilled to see temps go up to the 40's! :rolleyes:
You guys are a bunch of wimps! ;)
Today is my day off, and it's 37 out right now. :(
I'm actually considering pulling out the rollers again (like we did yesterday...oh, the 2 of us on side-by-side rollers doing Spinervals. What a sight!).
Yeah....I really want to put away the long sleeves and tights. If I can't go skiing, what's the point of cold weather??? ;)
makbike
04-09-2007, 06:09 AM
Hi, my name is Marcie and I'm a weather wimp. It has been 5 days since I've riden in temperatures above 50.
I'm going to will the mercury in the thermometer to 50 today so I can at least get in 15 miles. Tomorrow is looking good. I hope to ride here at home, pack the bike and head into Louisville to join the evening club ride.
Silver, buzz on down and we can get a few miles in before the rain moves in Wednesday.
LadyinWhite
04-09-2007, 06:12 AM
I'm irritated, don't feel well, crabby, feel bloated, my legs itch. I'm restless and impatient.
It's been six days since I have ridden my bike. :( :( :( :( :(
HELP!!!!
You just described me to a T!! My family is practically begging me to just get back on the bike! LOL
This thread gives me hope. I was just sitting here feeling like a big ole loser because of all the amazingly strong beautiful warrior women I read about in TE who ride rain or shine, warm or cold.
I'm so glad I'm not the only self proclaimed wimp in town. I absolutely hate riding in the cold. I've done it and I find no fun in it at all. I don't like anything about the cold period - born and raised in Vermont and all I can think about these days is moving south!! Far far more south than NJ.
T.
indysteel
04-09-2007, 06:16 AM
Silver, and anyone else dealing with these way-below-normal temps: I feel your pain. I road last Monday in a sleeveless top. Yesterday, I has my warmest gear on, plus feet and hand warmers--and I was still cold. I just had to get out there though. I managed only 32 miles at the CIBA ride (where only about 15 brave souls showed up) before giving into the cold. They say you should "ride the temperature" so I'm okay with it. I'm going back out there today and tomorrow though, before the rain and wind sidelines me again. Don't the weather gods know I have mileage goals to consider?
Offthegrid
04-09-2007, 06:31 AM
I've been incredibly bummed out by the weather, too. The other day I got fully dressed in cycling gear and just couldn't ride. It was too cold and too windy (and if I had ridden, I would have been riding in a heavy snow because it started 20 minutes after I bagged the ride). And it's supposed to rain Thursday during my women's running/walking program -- again. UGH!!!
Let's go sunshine!
songlady
04-09-2007, 06:31 AM
Heck I'd be thrilled to see temps go up to the 40's! :rolleyes:
Amen to that! The past 4 days have been temps right around 30 with winds at 20mph gusting to 30-35! I have been absolutely miserable. As a teacher, this is my week of break and I had big cycling plans. Very disappointing so far. I hope today the winds will die down a little, I'll brave it if it's 32 and relatively calm!
Thorn
04-09-2007, 07:04 AM
Yeah....a couple of weekends ago we did 100+ miles, last weekend we slugged through some sloppy wet, but outdoor riding. I thought I'd seen the last of evil Coach Troy and his Spinervals propaganda until fall. Alas, this weekend, I wimped out and slunk back to the basement...I swear that ECT had a smirk on his face Saturday as he ordered once again..."big gear, 15"
roguedog
04-09-2007, 07:51 AM
Hi, my name is Marcie and I'm a weather wimp. It has been 5 days since I've riden in temperatures above 50.
I'm going to will the mercury in the thermometer to 50 today so I can at least get in 15 miles. Tomorrow is looking good. I hope to ride here at home, pack the bike and head into Louisville to join the evening club ride.
Silver, buzz on down and we can get a few miles in before the rain moves in Wednesday.
Hi Marcie. Welcome.
*group hug* *passes tissue box*
BleeckerSt_Girl
04-09-2007, 07:55 AM
Listen...I was truly the biggest weather wimp in the world up until a couple of years ago.
I didn't exercise at all, I was 25 pounds overweight, had no real muscles to speak of, and all fall, winter, and spring I was COLD. Cold, cold, cold.
I would pile on 3 or 4 heavy acrylic sweaters, extra cotton waffle longjohns under my jeans, triple thick crew socks, scarves, ponchos, you name it. I looked like the Michellin man, but i was.... COLD.
Then I started walking...3 miles briskly every day. That helped my circulation and heartrate a bit, and i got a few muscles and started losing the extra pounds. But I was still pretty cold. Still piled on clothes like Michelin man.
Last Fall, with the advice of my smart DH and after some additional reading and research, I realized I needed to get better clothes for what I was attempting to do. People kept telling me "There is no bad weather, only bad clothing." Could they actually be right, I wondered? Me- the total weather wimp who huddled like a cat on sunny windowsills, in front of radiators and sitting on heating vents all my life....could I possible brave the elements on my bike and not be miserably frozen? Didn't seem like something **I** could do.
I set out to get properly equipped for the winter. Real wool was the foundation element to build upon.
I put heavy wool knee socks over wool hiking socks. Thinsulate hiking boots over those. Thick wool tights to wear OVER my chamois lycra cold weather tights. Underarmor sportsbra. Thin merino wool undervest. Thin merino wool longsleeve base layer. Merino LS turtleneck to wear over the base layer & vest. Heavy wool outer zipper vest for over that. Warm stretchy inner-fuzzy polyester wind-proof jacket. Nylon windbreaker/shell on the outside. Soft cashmere gloves (a gift). Smartwool glove liners over that. Heavy windproof ski gloves over that. Smartwool helmet liner. Full balaclava over that. A second balaclava in my saddlebag just in case. Oh, and a good face cream with lanolin (more wool!).
I know what you're thinking- and YES, all this stuff cost me a small fortune. :o But it will last me for many years because it's all well made and wool can last for decades if you take good care of it. Wool also doesn't smell at all when you get sweaty. (unlike polyester, which for me stinks after one ride).
It takes me about ten minutes to get all layered up to go out. But once I'm set, I can go biking for 2 1/2 hours at 28 degrees F and cloudy/breezy, like yesterday! I was TOTALLY COMFORTABLE. Some call me "brave" or "tough"....but I'm not brave at all, because I'm not suffering at all- it's easy to be tough when you are actually totally comfy! :cool: The worst thing is usually that my prescription glasses get too cold on the bridge of my nose- but I can take them off for a while and still see fine.
Another key factor here is that none of these items are bulky or stiff. They move with me and they breathe when I need it. I don't look bulked up. I can peel things off as I warm up and put them in my saddlebag. I'm always amazed at how much I wind up taking off once i warm up even when it's really cold. I think 25 degrees is about my lower limit with this getup. Some women here can bike colder than that, and I suspect they have even better layering clothes. I now beleive you can be biking comfortably down to 25 with the right clothes. I guess I could go colder if I used those chemical hand/foot warmers, but I'd hate to have to keep buying those and besides, Spring is here now- don't need them over 30 degrees!
Anyway, I hope that clarifies how "tough" I really am to bike in the cold weather. :rolleyes: Perhaps it will encourage others to get a little "braver" and experiment, if they get TOO much cabin fever (and "itchy" legs?!- whoa!!) from not biking. :D
mimitabby
04-09-2007, 08:07 AM
Lisa,
we have this weather, and it can happen anytime from November until July (I Kid you not) where it is DARK and rainy and cold. Granted, cold in January isn't the same as cold in July, but... our cold in July can be in the high 40's, low 50's.
The cloud layer is about 5 miles thick, and I don't care how much wool and
fancy bike gear you wear, it's very hard to leave your warm dry house
and go for a bike ride when the little cold water particles get you instantly wet as you go out to your car. Add a little wind to this mix and you might as well just go back to bed.
and then I do NOT want to ride.
BleeckerSt_Girl
04-09-2007, 08:12 AM
Yes well that would be very much like riding in the cold rain- I won't ride in the rain if I can help it- nasty! Ridind when it's snow flurrying is pretty and fun though, as long as the road stays clear.
Our few days of early spring weather quickly resorted back to winter.Blahh! I tell myself I will brave the cold, layer up and up-look outside to see the wind whipping the trees, and cower back to my trainer. Midwest wind never lets up. Good news is soon I'll be complaining about the suffering heat!
indysteel
04-09-2007, 10:21 AM
Listen...I was truly the biggest weather wimp in the world up until a couple of years ago.
I didn't exercise at all, I was 25 pounds overweight, had no real muscles to speak of, and all fall, winter, and spring I was COLD. Cold, cold, cold.
I would pile on 3 or 4 heavy acrylic sweaters, extra cotton waffle longjohns under my jeans, triple thick crew socks, scarves, ponchos, you name it. I looked like the Michellin man, but i was.... COLD.
Then I started walking...3 miles briskly every day. That helped my circulation and heartrate a bit, and i got a few muscles and started losing the extra pounds. But I was still pretty cold. Still piled on clothes like Michelin man.
Last Fall, with the advice of my smart DH and after some additional reading and research, I realized I needed to get better clothes for what I was attempting to do. People kept telling me "There is no bad weather, only bad clothing." Could they actually be right, I wondered? Me- the total weather wimp who huddled like a cat on sunny windowsills, in front of radiators and sitting on heating vents all my life....could I possible brave the elements on my bike and not be miserably frozen? Didn't seem like something **I** could do.
I set out to get properly equipped for the winter. Real wool was the foundation element to build upon.
I put heavy wool knee socks over wool hiking socks. Thinsulate hiking boots over those. Thick wool tights to wear OVER my chamois lycra cold weather tights. Underarmor sportsbra. Thin merino wool undervest. Thin merino wool longsleeve base layer. Merino LS turtleneck to wear over the base layer & vest. Heavy wool outer zipper vest for over that. Warm stretchy inner-fuzzy polyester wind-proof jacket. Nylon windbreaker/shell on the outside. Soft cashmere gloves (a gift). Smartwool glove liners over that. Heavy windproof ski gloves over that. Smartwool helmet liner. Full balaclava over that. A second balaclava in my saddlebag just in case. Oh, and a good face cream with lanolin (more wool!).
I know what you're thinking- and YES, all this stuff cost me a small fortune. :o But it will last me for many years because it's all well made and wool can last for decades if you take good care of it. Wool also doesn't smell at all when you get sweaty. (unlike polyester, which for me stinks after one ride).
It takes me about ten minutes to get all layered up to go out. But once I'm set, I can go biking for 2 1/2 hours at 28 degrees F and cloudy/breezy, like yesterday! I was TOTALLY COMFORTABLE. Some call me "brave" or "tough"....but I'm not brave at all, because I'm not suffering at all- it's easy to be tough when you are actually totally comfy! :cool: The worst thing is usually that my prescription glasses get too cold on the bridge of my nose- but I can take them off for a while and still see fine.
Another key factor here is that none of these items are bulky or stiff. They move with me and they breathe when I need it. I don't look bulked up. I can peel things off as I warm up and put them in my saddlebag. I'm always amazed at how much I wind up taking off once i warm up even when it's really cold. I think 25 degrees is about my lower limit with this getup. Some women here can bike colder than that, and I suspect they have even better layering clothes. I now beleive you can be biking comfortably down to 25 with the right clothes. I guess I could go colder if I used those chemical hand/foot warmers, but I'd hate to have to keep buying those and besides, Spring is here now- don't need them over 30 degrees!
Anyway, I hope that clarifies how "tough" I really am to bike in the cold weather. :rolleyes: Perhaps it will encourage others to get a little "braver" and experiment, if they get TOO much cabin fever (and "itchy" legs?!- whoa!!) from not biking. :D
Hat's off to you for braving the cold. We had a mild late fall/early winter in Indiana (where Silver and Mr. Silver live), and I managed to ride pretty comfortably through most of it--down to about 27 degrees--so I agree that it can be done with the right clothes. The problem for me isn't the cold per se, but the wind. Once it gets over about 15 mph on a 28-degree day, it just ain't fun anymore. Of course, I feel that way to some extent on warm days too. :o
I think the problem for some of us in during this most recent cold snap is expectations. I expect to freeze my booty off riding in December, but in April? That's just cruel. I feel like I'm in the middle of a really long April Fool's Day joke!
BleeckerSt_Girl
04-09-2007, 10:37 AM
...The problem for me isn't the cold per se, but the wind. Once it gets over about 15 mph on a 28-degree day, it just ain't fun anymore. Of course, I feel that way to some extent on warm days too. :o
I think the problem for some of us in during this most recent cold snap is expectations. I expect to freeze my booty off riding in December, but in April? That's just cruel. I feel like I'm in the middle of a really long April Fool's Day joke!
Yes I agree the wind chill makes it colder. High wind makes cold riding impossible, but wind under 15mph isn't so bad.
I do understand about the April Fool's joke. But I try to think of it as bonus time where we don't have to cut grass or do any weeding yet! I'm pretty much ignoring my gardens because they are still semi-hibernating. That gives me more time to blow off yard chores and get on my bike! :)
makbike
04-09-2007, 01:06 PM
Hi, my name is Marcie and I rode 21 miles today and it was only 47 F! Of course I had to put on my shorts, my leg warmers, my wind tights, my arm warmers, my winter jersey, my wind jacket, my wool hood, my ear muffs, my glover liners and my winter gloves. The sun disappeared somewhere on this ride and the wind started blowing and I was wishing I was at home but I stuck it out and finished. It is now time to crawl into warm sleeping bag, curl up with my new book and take a nap (I love spring break!).
indysteel
04-09-2007, 01:32 PM
I'm off for a 30-mile ride with friends. It's usually a "recovery" ride but having ridden only 32 miles this weekend, there's not much to recover from. :(
It's 46 degrees right now and winds are low. How sad is it that I'm utterly thrilled with that? It's certainly better than 26 degrees with 25 mph winds. I'm easy to please apparently. That said, I'd pay a king's ransom right now for a 70-degree day.
Mr. Bloom
04-09-2007, 02:50 PM
Riding when it's snow flurrying is pretty and fun though, as long as the road stays clear.
We Know...
Chatham, New York...
:D :D Where the women are strong, the men are good looking and all of the children are above average.:D :D
BleeckerSt_Girl
04-09-2007, 02:52 PM
Hi, my name is Marcie and I rode 21 miles today and it was only 47 F! Of course I had to put on my shorts, my leg warmers, my wind tights, my arm warmers, my winter jersey, my wind jacket, my wool hood, my ear muffs, my glover liners and my winter gloves. The sun disappeared somewhere on this ride and the wind started blowing and I was wishing I was at home but I stuck it out and finished. It is now time to crawl into warm sleeping bag, curl up with my new book and take a nap (I love spring break!).
YAY MARCIE!!!! :p :p :p
BleeckerSt_Girl
04-09-2007, 02:58 PM
We Know...
Chatham, New York...
:D :D Where the women are strong, the men are good looking and all of the children are above average.:D :D
...And the bicycles are lugged steel....
Hmm...I guess it does seem a bit like that here! :confused: :rolleyes:
Tomorrow I bring my letter to the courthouse, requesting that bike racks be installed in the village- one at either end of Main street (which is one block long). Hey, it's a long block.http://harmonias.com/Chatham.jpg
Kitsune06
04-09-2007, 03:33 PM
*huff*
When you're really going and warmed up, it doesn't take *that* much insulation. This from a wet PNW rider, 30-low 40s mornings, 20 mi round trip... Took about 2 mi to warm up but I wore regular socks, boots (I am *not* going to get stuck in that slushy snowy cr*p in thin little biking shoes, and *not* going to clip in where it's slippery or icy...) lycra shorts, thin, lightly insulated running pants, rain pants, nike dri-fit shirt, poly vest and waterproof/breatheable jacket... then neoprene gloves and windstopper beanie under-helmet for good measure.
rain and snow are inevitable factors. It's up to us to adapt.
Specialized, baby.... Innovate or die. :D
mary9761
04-09-2007, 03:34 PM
Well, let's see, 4 months, 17 days, 8 hours, and 26 minutes.... I'd say I'm certifiable http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/mary9761/My%20Smilies/alicestragihtjacketb.jpg
silver
04-09-2007, 03:46 PM
Well, let's see, 4 months, 17 days, 8 hours, and 26 minutes.... I'd say I'm certifiable http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/mary9761/My%20Smilies/alicestragihtjacketb.jpg
Why, Mary! You're looking good!!!!! ;) ;) I'm still riding for ya!! I rode 50 for you today. You will be outriding us again soon and next year it will be you and me in heated competition for First Lady of the State!
Yea Marcie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, I think that the worst part of this is the expectation. Once the weather got nice and we dug out our warmer weather clothes it just felt so good not to be all bundled up. It felt good to me to have fingerless gloves touching my shifters. My closet is a bigger mess than usual. To ride today I had to dig through the summer stuff to get to the winter stuff. I still went out with too little and had to go back in for one more layer.
KnottedYet
04-09-2007, 03:55 PM
10 minutes ago it was raining and hailing and I needed my wool switchback over my wool shirt.
Now it is brilliant sunshine and blue skies and I can step outside in just my wool t-shirt and I'm comfy.
Spring in Seattle!
indysteel
04-10-2007, 06:32 AM
I met my friend up in the Boonies for a ride after work yesterday. We got all geared up--it felt colder than the temperature would have us believe--and set out right at 6 p.m. About a half mile into the ride, it started to sprinkle. A few cuss words and a short debate later, we decided to keep going. It was dark overhead, but there was some clearing on the horizon to the west. Gradually, the skies cleared and by the time we got back to our cars--after about 25 miles--it had turned into the a nice evening. Still cold, but bearable.
I love playing (and winning) a game of chicken with the weather gods!
BleeckerSt_Girl
04-10-2007, 11:56 AM
Mary....that picture totally cracked me up.
You seem to have lost a lot of weight- but you don't look too healthy!! :eek: And is that "back brace" helping? ;) :D :D
*huff*
When you're really going and warmed up, it doesn't take *that* much insulation. This from a wet PNW rider, 30-low 40s mornings, 20 mi round trip... Took about 2 mi to warm up but I wore regular socks, boots (I am *not* going to get stuck in that slushy snowy cr*p in thin little biking shoes, and *not* going to clip in where it's slippery or icy...) lycra shorts, thin, lightly insulated running pants, rain pants, nike dri-fit shirt, poly vest and waterproof/breatheable jacket... then neoprene gloves and windstopper beanie under-helmet for good measure.
rain and snow are inevitable factors. It's up to us to adapt.
Specialized, baby.... Innovate or die. :D
Kit, you say you're not wearing much insulation, but you've got THREE layers on -- plus the air layers in between! Sounds like at least as much as I wear when I go skiing! (and you've got two hats on!)
Karen in Boise
Bikingmomof3
04-10-2007, 04:50 PM
Well, let's see, 4 months, 17 days, 8 hours, and 26 minutes.... I'd say I'm certifiable http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/mary9761/My%20Smilies/alicestragihtjacketb.jpg
Mary how did I miss this picture? We need to talk, I think you may be going a tad heavy on the eye make-up. ;) Nice "jacket". :p
BleeckerSt_Girl
04-10-2007, 05:02 PM
Mary how did I miss this picture? We need to talk, I think you may be going a tad heavy on the eye make-up. ;) Nice "jacket". :p
Yeah Mary, is that one of those new style biking jackets I heard you were sewing up? Does it have a back pocket, and do you make it in Screaming Yellow too?
Mr. Bloom
04-10-2007, 05:41 PM
Mary....that picture totally cracked me up.
You seem to have lost a lot of weight- but you don't look too healthy!! :eek: And is that "back brace" helping? ;) :D :D
Actually, this is Silver before she's gotten her morning Diet Coke:D
There's no caffeine like cold caffeine
silver
04-10-2007, 06:13 PM
this is the last time you are allowed to have more than one drink!!!!! :p :p :p
PS: what's that old song that was about an astronaut, like he's looking back at the earth?....SilverD needs it for a space routine.
BleeckerSt_Girl
04-10-2007, 06:17 PM
Mr. S.....you need this shirt:
http://www.bicycle-gifts.com/rockjers/alice.htm
this is the last time you are allowed to have more than one drink!!!!! :p :p :p
PS: what's that old song that was about an astronaut, like he's looking back at the earth?....SilverD needs it for a space routine.
The Elton John one, or the David Bowie one?
Elton is "Rocket Man"
The Bowie entrant is "Space Oddity" --- lyrics here: http://www.mattsmusicpage.com/davidbowie/lspaceodd.htm
Karen in Boise
silver
04-10-2007, 08:23 PM
The Elton John one, or the David Bowie one?
Elton is "Rocket Man"
The Bowie entrant is "Space Oddity" --- lyrics here: http://www.mattsmusicpage.com/davidbowie/lspaceodd.htm
Karen in Boise
the Bowie one! that's it! thank you.
silver
04-10-2007, 08:25 PM
My symptoms are doing slightly better. 50 on Monday and 21 today. But the weather doesn't look so good for tomorrow. Hmmm....maybe I'll have to get some jewelry work done. :eek:
the Bowie one! that's it! thank you.
You're welcome, Silver! Glad to help!
Karen in Boise
mary9761
04-10-2007, 09:48 PM
Mr. S.....you need this shirt:
http://www.bicycle-gifts.com/rockjers/alice.htm
Both Cooper Jerseys are on my wish list as far as jerseys go. I often am FLYING across 151st Street in the mornings as the club is ready to leave for the Saturday ride Screaming "I'm here wait for me" and I fantasized having that jersey on screaming and flying like a Banshee up the MONON and across Hamilton County LOL.... I can't seem to get a page to open so I can give a link for the Welcome to My Nightmare Jersey, but the one you have the link to is #1 on my list... :p :rolleyes: I fantasized scaring the bejeezuz out of some of the CIBA peeps on the Carbos and Caffeine ride or any of the others.... Call ME Pumpkin MAN will ya???
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