living with cars on the road

[mimitabby]

or shall I say, staying alive?

here's an interesting matrix; talks about what caused bike/car fatalities.

http://www.bicyclinginfo.org/matrix/list.cfm


I hear a lot of flack from time to time by irate drivers... but I found an interesting statistic. There are generally about 5000 PEDESTRIANS killed by cars every year. In 2003, there were 622 bicyclist killed by vehicles. Now, it's true, there are more pedestrians than bicyclists, but why the anger and invective against us?
The fact is, PEDESTRIANS are in the street and getting killed and maimed too.

Obviously the problem isn't the bicyclists, it's the people driving CARS!!!.

[Eden]

Drivers don't mind peds as much since pedestrians are soft, squishy and not at all fast and don't damage your car too much when you run them over???

But seriously I have just as many, if not more close calls with cars walking as I have on my bike. Mostly its people turning right on red who are looking left - looking for cars- who then turn without checking to the right for pedestrians. Though also I have been nearly run over several times by cars failing to stop at stop signs when I've been crossing he street - humph just what they accuse all us bikes of doing. Something tells me I'd prefer to be hit by a bike....

I think everyone, drivers, cyclists and pedestrians alike would be much safer if we eliminated right on red and/or had dedicated pedestrian only crossing times at busy intersections- like NO cars coming through intesections when peds cross and no peds when traffic is there. It would also help with the fact that it is nearly impossible to make a right hand turn downtown since when the light is green the intersections are full of walkers and when its red they are full of traffic. I can understand (but not really sympathise... I never drive downtown unless it is completelly unavoidable) that people get frustrated by not being able to get around down there.

[Geonz]

Also of importance to note: while some kinds of automobile fatalities have gone down, the actual amount of *crashes* hasn't - we've just insulated the cars better. The fatalities for pedestrians & cyclists have increased.
Lots of parallels here about attitudes of "safety means protecting myself against my carelessness," instead of finding ways to interact less destructively with our surroundings.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I read that after years of slow steady decline, the number of motorcycles fatalities has been suddenly rising dramatically due to increased car-motorcycle collisions. Could this be related to car cell phone use, I wonder?
Even here in NY state where it is ILLEGAL to use a hand held cell phone while driving- about every 10th car I see go by me has the driver holding a cell phone to their head and talking away....I don't think anyone is enforcing the law at all. :(

[MomOnBike]

OK, I can't cite my source on this (sorry), but the word-of-mouth statistic I heard this weekend is that we would have to stay in Iraq for 50 years to get the number of fatalities we have every single <deletable expletive> year from cars.

Working in a rehab hospital, I think I believe it. The older I get the more anti-car I become, and I never did like cars that much to begin with.

Cars and cell phones. Ugh. Don't get me started.

[Kimmyt]

I think it has to do with our bikes. They see us, riding our complicated shiny hunks of metal on the road, wearing our spandex and bright colors, sunglasses and funny-shaped helmets. They don't relate to us as much as humans. I'm not saying they don't think they're human.

But between a regular person walking, and a cyclist all kitted up, which one is the average driver going to relate to the most?

If they hit a ped, they relate to that person more, can see themselves in the ped's shoes, as it were. With a cyclist, they just see someone doing something they don't understand, and blame the cyclist because obviously it was their fault, doing such a weird and dangerous thing on the roads where they shouldn't be.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Kimmy, I think dogs think of cyclists the exact SAME way that you just described that drivers do. :rolleyes: :(

[mimitabby]

I think it has to do with our bikes. They see us, riding our complicated shiny hunks of metal on the road, wearing our spandex and bright colors, sunglasses and funny-shaped helmets. They don't relate to us as much as humans. I'm not saying they don't think they're human.

But between a regular person walking, and a cyclist all kitted up, which one is the average driver going to relate to the most?

If they hit a ped, they relate to that person more, can see themselves in the ped's shoes, as it were. With a cyclist, they just see someone doing something they don't understand, and blame the cyclist because obviously it was their fault, doing such a weird and dangerous thing on the roads where they shouldn't be.
You are surely right, but still, 10x more pedestrians get killed by the cars who have people in them and who love pedestrians.

[Grog]

But between a regular person walking, and a cyclist all kitted up, which one is the average driver going to relate to the most?


I think you bring an interesting point Kimmy. In general I feel like I get a wider berth when I'm in civil clothing on my big clunky pink bike compared to my road bike.

However, I'm pretty sure that the weight of accidents with roadies in road gear is much less, compared to the number on the road on any given period, than the number of accidents with non-roadies... The stats show that many people get into accidents riding against the traffic, riding on sidewalks, etc. things that few roadies will do compared to the casual riders...

I think it's a good explanation for the abuse we get, but I'm not sure it translates in terms of accidents.

(This being said, I have undergone very little abuse, perhaps in good part because this city - Vancouver BC - has a critical mass of riders.)

[mimitabby]

makes me want to start wearing midriff jerseys so they can see I have skin. (but hey, it's too cold to show skin!)

[missymaya]

Other things to consider when looking at fatality rates: with motorcycles (at least in FL; as for other states I dont know) you are not legally bound to wear a helmet if you're 18+ and have insurance (same with cyclists). I do know that last year's biketoberfest and bikeweek, they saw a dramatic increase in motorcycle fatalities. See a connection here anyone?
Also, based on what Geonz said, autos have gotten quite large. SUV's are huge and from what I see, a lot of women drive these monsters because they feel more protected and safe. Hint: just because its big, doesnt mean your safe. When they're backing out of their driveway and nearly run my a$$ over, its my fault because they couldn't see me. I would think because of the size of these things, the chances of a driver hitting someone would be higher because of the blindspots and the maneuverablity.

[spokewench]

I read that after years of slow steady decline, the number of motorcycles fatalities has been suddenly rising dramatically due to increased car-motorcycle collisions. Could this be related to car cell phone use, I wonder?
Even here in NY state where it is ILLEGAL to use a hand held cell phone while driving- about every 10th car I see go by me has the driver holding a cell phone to their head and talking away....I don't think anyone is enforcing the law at all. :(

It is my personal opinion that whether it is cell phones or other things that cause people to be inattentive to their driving obligations, this is a huge and major cause of increased collisions.

However, I think that the fact that more people are starting to drive motorcycles again due to the increased in gas prices, could have somethign to do with the increased in collision/fatalities with motorcycles as well.

[mimitabby]

It is my personal opinion that whether it is cell phones or other things that cause people to be inattentive to their driving obligations, this is a huge and major cause of increased collisions.

However, I think that the fact that more people are starting to drive motorcycles again due to the increased in gas prices, could have somethign to do with the increased in collision/fatalities with motorcycles as well.

In regards to motorcycles, right now they are the large purchase of choice
for men seeking their second childhood. The age of riders in fatality accidents has climbed because of this new population of harley riding middle aged guys who are actually just learning to ride these very heavy beasts. There was a write up in the paper about a year ago about this.

[Grog]

In regards to motorcycles, right now they are the large purchase of choice
for men seeking their second childhood. The age of riders in fatality accidents has climbed because of this new population of harley riding middle aged guys who are actually just learning to ride these very heavy beasts. There was a write up in the paper about a year ago about this.

Two older men I heard of bought these huge motorcycles and called themselves the
Hell'Zheimers.

One of them broke his ankle early after his new purchase when he dropped the "beast" on himself.

Not sure about the stats, but your perspective makes a lot of sense!!

[xeney]

I think the point about the type of bike you ride and how you are dressed is a good one. I have never experienced overtly rude behavior from a driver when I'm on my clunky pink bike, dressed for work, although people still do stupid things. Instead I get a lot of waves and good mornings. When I'm on my road bike I only get that from other cyclists.

(Drivers are even friendlier when I don't wear a helmet, but I decided that friendliness was not a good tradeoff for safety.)

[Eden]

Weirdly enough around here it is the opposite of what Grog and Xeney have experienced. When I go out in my team kit I usually get better treatment by cars than when I take the big old Marin out in my street clothes.

[missymaya]

Yeah, I see a lot of those "hardcore bikers" (motorcycles) with ginormous bikes. Two weeks ago, a woman dropped her bike at a one-way stop T-section. Cars just kept goin by, not caring and she couldnt pick the bike up. My bf and I helped her move it to the side of the road and it took all 3 of us to get it up and the lady and I arent small. One of the first things she said was that it was her first time on a bike. :eek: :eek: She was wearing a helmet and she wasnt hurt, but still, she couldnt pick up the bike and it was her first time riding. What if this were in a major intersection! Not cool. Way to contribute to traffic problems:eek:

[Deborajen]

I get treated better when I'm on my commuter wearing street clothes than when I'm in my cycling clothes and on my road bike. I stick more to the less-traveled neighborhood streets on the commute, though, vs. the county roads with more car traffic (but wider lanes and shoulders) for the longer rides. Maybe that's part of it.

Last week, our city's Metropolitan Planning Organization had a public meeting to discuss future plans for the biking/jogging/walking path system. I went to that meeting and they had a presentation with statistics from a Federal government study about cycling safety. They did stress that a cyclist is 1.8 times more likely to be struck by a car when riding on a bike path vs. riding on the road. The most common location for the crashes is where the paths intersect with driveways (ie., business entrances).

So one of the proposed solutions for the bike path system is "road diet" (ie., restripe 2 or 3 of the 8 or 9 main east-west roads so that instead of four car lanes with no median, there will be two car lanes with a turn lane in the middle plus a bike lane on the far right in each direction). I'm all for a good bike system but YEEESH! Sharing the road with car traffic squeezed down to one lane each direction - no passing, etc. - to make room for BIKES??? Boy, if drivers didn't hate us already!

Deb

[Geonz]

It may not be as bad as it sounds. They did that to a main-road-through-campus here, and now the lanes are wider so there's room for me, and cars can duck out into that turn lane to get around . Drivers are seldom obnoxious, tho' last week a probably intoxicated male hollered and stuck his hand out in the general direction of my face... then when I got right behind them in the queue at the light, leaned out and said, "Is there a PROBLEM?"... but they were pulling away. (It told me that he expected me to scoot to the front of the queue, which I avoid on the "don't make 'em pass me twice" principle and *certainly* when somebody has already been obnoxious in passing... though I had a brief visualization of just grabbing that outstretched hand knowing he might break a finger as they pulled away... tho' I'd prob'ly have gone down...)

[xeney]

They did that to several major streets in my city as well, and although I was really skeptical at first, they've worked out pretty well. I am generally nervous in bike lanes, but these bike lanes are a bit wider than the norm, and traffic has slowed down (or been redirected onto other streets or the freeway), and I find myself using those routes all the time.

Those are one-way streets that were previously three lanes, now down to two lanes with wide bike lanes on each side (one-way bike lanes, each going the same direction as the traffic). If you're in the left-hand bike lane you have to be sure to catch a driver's eye when a left turn comes up in order to avoid getting creamed, but I have found that the drivers on those streets are pretty attentive and even friendly.

[smilingcat]

how nice to have mindful drivers.

had two incidents yesterday for me. car coming from the opposite direction decides to make a left hand turn right in front of me. YEEKS :eek: :eek: both drivers locked their wheel. I locked up my wheels too. I don't want my bike to be cremed.

Then with the warm weather, too many beach goers who stepped off the sidewalk right in front of you GRRRR!!! They think I can stop in time?? Cars are doing 30MPH, why don't they step in front of a car instead??

Training ride yesterday was avoidance training.

My other pet peeve. Car drivers always want to go faster than you even if its unsafe for ALL OF US. i.e. coming down a winding narrow road. Yesterday was no exception. but with one added twist. He started to hit the brakes after he got in front of me. I had to brake around hairpin turns... GRRR!!! (and I'm no where near my old speed)

You may ask why not take a different route? All these dogem took place on my way to my training ground up in Palos Verdes Ca.

hope for a better ride the next time. (or maybe I should really not ride anymore. Last hospital stay I said no more)

Shawn