Muslim Women All Body Swimsuits

[Mr. Bloom]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070218/ap_on_re_us/muslim_women_swimsuits


Recently, I remember reading that the Queen Rania of Jordan (I think???), who is young and fashion conscious, had spoken out against the mandate that Muslim women cover themselves so completely.

This is a sincere question - really aimed at someone with Muslim knowledge.

While I respect someone's free choice to exceed the tenets of their faith, is there really a doctrinal mandate in the Muslim faith that mandates full body covering for women??

In Christianity, 1 Peter 3 encourages modesty in attitude and appearance:


Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.

...but there is nothing as extreme as the practice that Muslim women adhere to (and I don't know or understand if it's by choice or mandate in certain countries).

Does anyone have any insight to offer? No Muslim bashing...please

[crazycanuck]

Mr Silver,

Just a thought as i sit here eating my lunch. Doesn't it depend on the type of Islam a particular sect follows? I'd have to do some searching but it depends on the country.

I see the Cronulla beach riots sparked the desire for a burquini.

C

[snapdragen]

I'm not muslim, but I found this:

The intention of Western dress is to reveal the figure, while the intention of Muslim dress is to conceal it, at least in public.

The relevant verse of the Qur'an says:
"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the women of the believers to draw upon them their over-garments.

That is more appropriate so that they may be recognised and not molested" (33:59).

Is is therefore required for a Muslim woman when she goes out to wear a dress that covers her from head to foot and does not reveal the figure. According to some scholars only the hands and face should be left uncovered, while according to some others the face should also be covered. There are therefore two opinions on this matter.
---------------------
cc - I think you are right, at least in the US and probably Oz, Muslim women choose how they will dress. I work with a number of women that just wear the head scarf, not the full dress. I've also seen patients in the hospital in full head to toe dress.

[crazycanuck]

I would say somone living in say Pakistan or Saudi Arabia would adhere to the Qur'an to the exact word. As Sharia law is followed very very closely not much choice.

Now, somewhere like Indonesia or Malaysia-Both are predominantly Islamic countries but all depends again- there's more choice. It's a bit confusing to explain when it comes to Malaysia & Indonesia as there are so many cultures but the muslim faith is predonminant.

It totally depends Mr Silver. All I can say is learn about each country, read as many books as you can and possibly watch Al-jezeera.

I think i'm babbling and have had too much lunch. Let me think about this one.

C

[Grog]

I am not an Islamic studies expert, or a Muslim myself, but I'm pretty sure this does not differ much in Islam as in the Catholic faith (in a variant of which I've grown), for example, so here is my take on it.

* Regarding what the Quran actually says:
There are probably many passages that can be interpreted as referring to women's dress. They are probably all quite metaphoric/poetic and not very clear. They are written in classic Arabic, which makes matters of interpretation all the more variable... Call me a relativist, but there are probably many different ways to interpret it, going from a 'modest attitude' to the burqua (Taliban-style).

By the way, Muslim men also generally are told not to wear shorts and are supposed to grow a beard. Here interpretations vary as well...

If one searches the bible for long enough, one will certainly fine many references to how women should dress, just as poetic and metaphorical... Different versions of the bible will differ... The bible was also written in ancient languages or versions of languages, so translations/interpretations vary.

* Regarding the relations between culture, religion, and the State:
Some countries have adopted Islam as a state religion. They are usually the countries where the religious sayings are interpreted in their most conservative version. Correct my outsider's point of view, but it seems to me that in the USA, some states are also closer to organized religion than others, and it's also where the most conservative interpretations of religion are most frequent. All over the world, for a few centuries, if not millenia, the struggle between political powers and religious powers has been continuous. In general, when they get very close (with the religion on top), women don't get a very good deal or lots of options.

* Regarding Muslim women in non-Muslim countries who decide to abide by more traditional religious principle:
I'm not sure what I think about that, but I tend to think that, just like non-Muslim women (and men) by the way, it's not so much a matter of 'choice' as of internalizing what we feel is 'normal', 'good', what we've grown up around, what we take for granted as the right way to do things. Sure I 'choose' to dress up and wear a nice suit for a job interview, but honestly it would be unthinkable for me to do otherwise, just as it would be unthinkable for these young women to go to the beach wearing a tiny bikini. (Isn't extreme to show as much skin as "we" do to go swimming?)

* To answer the original question by Mr. Silver, my .02 cents (Canadian $):
Depending on their country, culture, education, tradition, family, desire to show affiliation to the above, etc., their mileage... er, coverage may vary.

:)

Edited to add: I don't think there is such a thing as a written, ancestral version of the sharia.

[Wahine]

Just echoing what CC, Snap and Grog have said. The code of dress depends on many factors, location, sect, family etc. The Muslim faith is as diverse as the Christian faith, if not more so. Catholics have very different rituals and ideals than Protestants. Sunnis are very different from Shi'ites.

I have many Muslim friends who do not adhere to any particular rules with regard to dress but still pray 5 times in a day and observe Ramadan. To me, that's sticking to your faith. I don't know many Christians that pray 5 times per day or Catholics that strictly observe Lent. I have some Muslim friends that drink coffee and alcohol, some that won't touch either and avoid caffienated beverages all together.

Even within a country their are huge differences in Isalmic traditions.

[Mr. Bloom]

it's not so much a matter of 'choice' as of internalizing what we feel is 'normal', 'good', what we've grown up around, what we take for granted as the right way to do things.


A very good point here...but, I do wonder if it's a choice for women immediately following a fundamental sectarian political shift...say following the fall of the Shah of Iran in '79.

[crazycanuck]

Mr Silver, what about Pakistan, a predominantly muslim country since it's inception in 1947. What about India? How about Africa?Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia etc etc..

Just because Iran had a revolution in 1979, signalling yet another change in the Middle East, doesn't mean other predominantly muslim countries didn't recognize or follow strict adherence to the koran.

Interesting questions Mr Silver & I don't mean to be rude but perhaps an arranged visit to your local mosque wouldn't be a bad idea? Again, depending on the mufti(?), you'll receive just one view. You may never receive the response you want either.

Wikipedia is also a good source on the chador, niqab, burqua and hijab
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chador

Is it ok to discuss this here? Snap???

C

[Mr. Bloom]

Thanks cc, I think that Snap answered my original question with the quote she cited...in addition, I think everyone has been careful to avoid a 'debate', so I don't think we're off base with the discussion.

[snapdragen]

I find it an interesting discussion, no one is getting out of control or name calling. This would never happen on some other boards.

[alpinerabbit]

In terms of the interest of this message board - Anything that will allow women to exercise is fine with me, so if a burquini is what's needed, great!

I know someone for whom it is a personal choice to wear a veil. No pressure from family and definitely not from her western husband.

[margo49]

I'm with Rabbit!
Also, as the SO always says "There is *one* religious authority in this family and it's *not* me".
Or, in my own words "No [insert your favourite negative word for "religious authority"] is going to tell *me* what to wear or not to wear on my head"

I saw a Religiously Observant Jewish woman biking in our fields this past autumn (fall). She was in a black, mid-calf full-cut skirt , a long-sleeved white hoody (also generously tailored), white rib-knit stockings , and a helmet with a bandana underneath! She was acoompanied by her bearded, side-locked husband who was wearing black track pants and a white hoody.
I also saw a woman running a marathon here in a below-the-knee black skirt made of some light-sport-synthetic. The skirt was cut so that it was very wide around the knee are and fit closer at the waist and quite narrow at the hem (think: aubergine/eggplant). Her top was not body-fitting and she covered her head with a scarf.

It can be done and it *will * be done

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Well heck just look at all the old postcards and pictures of women around 1910, bicycling with long skirts and the then-typical "full body armor". They had metal cages around their chain drive and/or back wheel spokes so as not to let their long skirts get caught while riding. (Shades of Isadora Duncan...shudder...!)

[East Hill]

True, but those ladies weren't out to try to win any competitions! (and trust me, I don't think they did :D ).

East Hill

[Duck on Wheels]

I remember back when I was studying Anthro, I came across an article on food taboos. "Oh, those," I thought to myself, "Other, less rational people have those; I don't." So I'm gladly reading along, laughing quietly to myself about the silly taboos. Then I get to a picture of a table set for a Seder ... with a bottle of Coke :eek: . And there it was. A taboo I felt in the gut. And so totally meaningless. I'm not observant. I don't even believe, don't even know what it is I'm s'posed to believe in. But Coke at a seder, that just felt so wrong. All right, so maybe it's that I don't like coke in general, but I took it as a humbling experience: I too am a bearer of inexplicable, irrational taboos.

Jump forward a few decades to current debates in Europe as to whether the burka, the chador, maybe even hijab are women-oppressive garments, and to France deciding that girls will not be allowed to wear hijab in school. To even out the blow, and only after the blow was challenged, they also forbade religious jewelry of any kind (little cross on a chain, mogen david on a chain, etc.). It struck me right off that that was the wrong way to go about it. That just makes hijab even more of an identity item, an embattled one at that. And in France, of all places !?!? Why not popularize hijab as a fashion garment instead? It already is a fashion statement for Muslim women (check out how they color-coordinate hijab with dress, etc.!) So why not popularize it? Wouldn't that take the religion-political edge off?

So lo and behold, now somebody has come up with the idea of hijab as fashion, especially as sports fashion, for everywoman. http://www.thehijabshop.com/capsters/index.php
First these designer sport hijabs were presented as a solution for Muslim women who want to run, ride, swim, ski ... But now it turns out lots of women are ordering them. (Note the "out of stock" on every single model!) They're pretty, comfy, practical (keep your hair clean, neat, out of the way). Think buff-with-chin-strap or Finland-style-balaklava but loose and airy. And in cool colors, coordinated with other sports gear. Nike also makes some -- in pink! http://www.ohmpage.ca/2006/03/20/nike-just-does-a-sports-hijab/

For more discussion on this new fashion/religion/identity statement (or is it?) see blog and debate responses at http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2005/08/04/hijab/

[Mr. Bloom]

So lo and behold, now somebody has come up with the idea of hijab as fashion, especially as sports fashion, for everywoman. http://www.thehijabshop.com/capsters/index.php
First these designer sport hijabs were presented as a solution for Muslim women who want to run, ride, swim, ski ... But now it turns out lots of women are ordering them. (Note the "out of stock" on every single model!) They're pretty, comfy, practical (keep your hair clean, neat, out of the way). Think buff-with-chin-strap or Finland-style-balaklava but loose and airy. And in cool colors, coordinated with other sports gear. Nike also makes some -- in pink! http://www.ohmpage.ca/2006/03/20/nike-just-does-a-sports-hijab/


Wow!!! A testimony to the potential versatility of the human spirit!

[Tuckervill]

Conservative modes of dress are not limited to Muslims, though. I have Pentecostal family members who have never cut their hair, wear only long skirts, and the men wear only long sleeved shirts. My own grandmother was over 80 before she cut her hair, but she had always worn it up, with a crown of ringlets around her face, so I never even knew she had long hair!

Many other Christian sects require modest dress, particularly from women. I can't think of any which require the face be covered (though I do know some who cover their heads). I think it's an interesting topic to ponder.

Karen

[Meaux]

I would say somone living in say Pakistan or Saudi Arabia would adhere to the Qur'an to the exact word. As Sharia law is followed very very closely not much choice.
C
Not to nit-pick, but my sister-in-law is from Karachi, Pakistan, and she told me that they don't have to cover there. It may because she is from the city and I think grew up in a more affluent part of the city, but when I asked her about it, she got sort of huffy (it's complicated) and she said that they don't have to cover in Pakistan. It does depend on the country, in some parts of Afghanistan, women have to cover fully, wearing burqas. In other Islamic countries, women don't have to cover. From my understanding, there's nothing in the Qur'an that specifically says that they have to cover their heads, it's a choice in some cases, a difference in how they interpret the Qur'an in others. I took a sociology in world religion class, and we had a really great speaker who shed light on a lot of things in Islam. So, that's my take on the situation.

[margo49]

Hair covering is a mostly a religious identity statement and the particular kind of hair covering you choose is a political statement for your co-religionists (fine distinctions being usually lost on outsiders).
Women are endlessly inventive when it comes to personal decoration and what looks to some like an authoritarian stricture is simply (another) challenge

That said there are "pathologicals" like me who know that 70% of body-heat issues (hot or cold) can be solved by covering the head and therefore consistently wear hats from a physiological motivation.

[margo49]

I also look so much more cute, jaunty, smart and a whole list of other adjectives!

[Mr. Bloom]

Many other Christian sects require modest dress, particularly from women. I can't think of any which require the face be covered (though I do know some who cover their heads). I think it's an interesting topic to ponder.


One important distinction:

The quote I made from 1 Peter is directed as an encouragement to women and this is a choice for Pentecostals.

The quote from the Qur'an seems directed to the prophet as a mandate for women.

But, I think Grog's comment remains key in this discussion...that is, for some, cultural influences would make them uncomfortable any other way...

It's also very interesting to me that exercise would not be possible without some of the more innovative options shown on the website...

[Trek420]

It's also very interesting to me that exercise would not be possible without some of the more innovative options shown on the website...

Oh please, Islamic women did and do plenty in sport without Nike, etc. From Wikipedia, source of all knowledge ;) :rolleyes: :cool:

Women were an integral part of the sport in ancient Persia. Polo originated in the royal courts of ancient Persia 2,500 years ago. The queen and her ladies-in-waiting would play against the emperor and his courtiers.[5]

Today, Iranian schools offer Sport for Iranian students including girls. Despite some restrictions, Iran has many female athletes talented enough to win medals in international competitions. In 2000, Atousa Pour-Kashian, became world chess champion. In 2004, Zahra Asgardoun won a silver medal in sanshu competitions of the Asian women's wushu event.

On 30 May 2005, Farkhondeh Sadegh, a graphic designer, and Laleh Keshavarz, a dentist, became the first Muslim women to make a successful ascent of Mount Everest. In December 2005, Iran wins Asian women's canoe polo crown. In 2006, Iranian wushu athletes gained five medals in the Third Grand International Wushu Festival in Warsaw, Poland. Iranian women's national team athlete, Elham Sadeqi, won three golds in Taolu events. Iran's top race car driver is Laleh Seddigh who is skilled in both circuit and rally driving.

National teams include: Iranian women national football team, national taekwondo team, Natioanl chess team, track and field team etc.

[Tuckervill]

The quote I made from 1 Peter is directed as an encouragement to women and this is a choice for Pentecostals.

I think we've already established that it's a choice for Muslims, too.

Karen

[Grog]

I think we've already established that it's a choice for Muslims, too.


More Canadian pocket change:

I think that's too broad a statement for me to agree with...

For some, or maybe even most, it might be a cultural statement, for others something they take for granted, etc. So sometimes it might be a choice, and other times, not. Saying it's a "choice" assumes that individuals live in a vacuum where they don't have to worry about the reactions of others... With a matter as loaded as religious expression through dress, I'm not sure we can take "choice" for granted.

And, I'm afraid, in some cases, it's a "choice" motivated by fear. Fear of rejection, fear of disappointing family members, or fear of being harassed or beaten up by local tyrans who think they should decide how you should dress. I certainly don't think it's a majority. But in tight-knit communities with a Muslim majority, like in some of Paris' suburbs, it's certainly happening.

(And even thinking about it, we could imagine a Muslim girl who lives in a non-Muslim community, with non-religious parents, wanting to cover her hair but not doing so because she fears ridicule or rejection from her parents. It's all relative...)

I just don't think it's something we can make sweeping statements about.

[Grog]

Oh, and just a thought:

I live in a small community (100 people) of graduate students from many countries. We take all of our meals together and share a number of common rooms.

Not so long ago, Japanese Woman X is sitting in the dining hall with her legs crossed. Japanese Man Y, a relatively friendly acquaintance but by no means a close friend, walked to her, slapped her on the knee and said (in Japanese, so I rely on her for the translation) that this was not a proper way to sit for a Japanese woman. There is no reason to believe that it was a joke.

She didn't feel too good about that, to say the least. I can't even start imagining the conflicted feelings she must have had following that event. It made ME very mad. But I'm sure her own feelings were much more complicated...

So generally I think it's safe to assume that how women dress, eat, sit, look, act, etc. is not just about their own "choice"... The same probably applies for men, as all men who have been found to be "too feminine" know...

[RoadRaven]

My two cents...

Interesting thread and interesting discussion

Re what the Koran says... well, one way of reading/interpreting passages of the Koran tells us that men cannot be trusted to behave themselves around women, that women should cover themselves in order to stay safe... men have no self control and the sight of womens skin can drive them past the edge of sanity. This interpretation has been verified for me by two Muslim males - however, they are only two of the thousands and thousands who follow this books teachings.

Regarding the Japanese man chastising the Japanese woman... well, Japan is actually highly prudish about sexuality in public (despite western perceptions of there fetishes with school girl uniforms etc).
My understanding is that Japanese law will not allow any displays of sexual intimacy in public unless they are between married couples. Hence, the only sexual scenes in movies with real people are between married couples. Hence the high popularity of manga and anime where the girls and women are cartoons and therefore ok to be involved in sexual acts with caricature males, or aliens/weird non-human creatures.

I am happy to be critiqued on this... this is only my perspective from what I have heard and seen and read on a very limited scale and from a western viewpoint and understanding.

[Mr. Bloom]

I think we've already established that it's a choice for Muslims, too.

Karen

While I'm confident that many do, I'm afraid that I know at least one Muslim woman who feels otherwise...she is a former co-worker from Pakistan, but she is ethnically Afgani. I think it varies by country/political environment.

But, even as an evangelical, I'm confident that women in some conservative christian sects feel more compulsion than choice in their clothing.

Roadraven: it's an interesting perspective that you offer. I'm intrigued because about 2% of the population probably commits 90% of our crimes (my guess)...While I don't agree with the characterization of men in general, I'm sure if they never saw a woman's skin, they'd like be driven crazy by the least bit...hmmm, I have to think about this one.

[Kitsune06]

Mr. Silver, Raven, I agree with both of you.
The higher you set the standard for 'clothed' whether the norm is loincloths or long pants, the standard for 'revealing' will always be relative and proportional. To the point where in nudist areas, the reverse occurs and a woman wearing a bikini is alluring, and also where a woman fully clothed but revealing a fine-boned ankle or wrist is wildly exciting.

But also, the more sexuality is repressed, the more violently it comes out, the less suggestion is needed, and it would be easy to conclude "Women need to be more conservative."

Therein is the misconception. And a dangerous one. While I agree that 2% of the population commit 90% of the crime (or some figure like that) it isn't necessarily a matter of those committing the crimes but society's reaction to said crimes.

As long as there is a feeling like "she deserved it- look what she was wearing" we are doing men and women a great disservice. We're telling women that they can't wear what they please because they have to be afraid of men; that they could ever deserve something like that.... We're telling men that they're animals and we don't expect them to have any self-restraint. It's unfair to everyone.

...but take that all with a grain of salt; I'm no criminal psychologist, just a laywoman watching it all from the sidelines.

[Mr. Bloom]

Kitsune: Wow:D :D Well Said! :cool:

[pll]

I have been reading this thread with great interest. Let me just offer you, from Lima's history, a contrast in how people interpret modesty and morality.

Lima was the capital of the vice royalty of Peru, which at some point encompassed most of South America. Between 1560 and around 1840, whenever in the streets, women wore a manto (a type of shawl, made of silk) and saya (a long skirt). They would cover their entire head, save for one eye. There is some speculation that the "fashion" came from Andalucia, from Muslim women who used a shawl rather than a hijab to cover their heads after the reconquest of Spain.

In Lima, rather than being modest attire, it was widely used by women to flirt in anonymity (allowing a shoulder to be uncovered, showing a wrist or ankle...). As early as 1561, the viceroys attempted to prohibit the use of the shawls as something that represented immorality and an attack to "good customs". At some point the second Archbishop of Lima (Santo Toribio) tried to prohibit its use in processions or in church and threatened with ex-communion. Every time, the prohibitions generated a huge outcry and did not work. The custom slowly disappeared in the mid 1800s (a couple of decades after independence from Spain) in favor of French fashions.

The "tapada limeña" ("tapar" = to cover) remains an icon of flirtatious behavior by women from Lima. I find this contrast interesting.

[margo49]

Turkey is another interesting case in point.During the modernisation regime of Kamil Attaturk women were prevented from wearing the veil. Now some are wanting to veil and others not. And in Turkey there are also Jews and Armenians who are mostly Orthodox .
Also, in Reading Lolita in Teheran, the author mentions how her grandmother stayed fearfully inside the house (veiled) during the reign of the Shah who in the name of modernisation was banning it. While she, 2 generations later was in fear of leaving the house without a veil in the time of Khomeini and the Ayatolla's and Modesty Squads.
The wife of a workmate here actually wears shorts in her own house but goes out in traditional Muslim garb plus hijab.

[doc]

I'm sure I'll take flak for this response, but here it goes...

I have lived and worked with many people with different religious/cultural dress. I found it mildly interesting and sometimes beautiful (like a fancy sari sp? which can be truly gorgeous). Often the person's religion/culture dictated various headwear (turban for a man etc). Never bothered me, that's for sure.

But, I believe a mandated or even recommended covering which obliterates the face, allowing only eyes or in the case of a burqa only shielded eyes to be seen is an erasure of identity. I think it is unhealthy in so many ways. It makes women completely interchangeable. It changes women from individuals to merely a concept or group. It eliminates nonverbal communication which is a substantial component to human interaction. Overall, it has massive ramifications, all negative I believe. Plus, the concept that a woman must cover her face from men who cannot control themselves gives license to men to behave unacceptably (wasn't their fault, after all) and causes victim blame.

OK. Now I'll duck and wait.

[East Hill]

I don't think you would get much argument from me over that. Women have become interchangeable parts to many men, and the all encompassing garment does help foster and promote that idea.

East Hill

[Grog]

OK. Now I'll duck and wait.

Don't. You have put it very well.

Indeed there is a big difference between covering one's hair and eventually body and covering one's face. Fully agreed...

[Mr. Bloom]

I agree...it is well put.

Wow...it's interesting the contrasts here:

On one hand, women are degraded for too much covering...but then I've observed the more traditional American view (originating - I think - from the feminist movement) that woman were 'objectified' from the opposite extreme of too little (or no) covering.

I'm not advocating either extreme as being right or wrong...it's simply interesting that the opposite extremes can bring one to the same conclusion...

But, to me, I suppose it boils down to consent and choice...does the person have the benefit of choice, within cultural customs and laws, to be unique without fear or persecution.

Everything is permissible, not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible, not everything is constructive.

This is much more interesting to ponder than I would have ever imagined:)

[margo49]

.It makes women completely interchangeable.
.

I think it is worse than making us interchangeable.

If the primary male objective is sensation a woman is basically unnecessary.
Men only need a particular woman if they are interested in a relationship. If they want give and take and feeling and a journey together it *does* matter who she is.
If not, any one or any thing can get them the "desired sensations"

[Now I'd better duck and run , along with the sheep and suckling calves]

[sgtiger]

I lived in Corvallis, Oregon for time which has a pretty big Islamic community. There were many women who wore burqas. Some because their families were very traditional and strict, and made them wear one. However, I met many women who chose to wear one. Like a Korean/American woman who converted to Islam after she got married. And a young women who grew up in a family that didn't believe in them. It mystified her family,including male members, why she would want to wear one. She told me it was very liberating for her to don it because she wasn't being objectified. :confused: