Question about average speeds

[ace]

How do you guys determine your average speed? Do you base it just on what your bike computer says it is at the end of the ride? I'm trying to get my "average speed" up, but it seems to stick at 10 mph. For instance, the 23 mile ride I did had maybe 3 miles of very steep hills, so even though I was going 15-19 on all the flats, I'm so slow on the hills that my average speed ends up being 10 mph. Probably a stupid question, but I would think that an average speed has little meaning unless you calculate in what kind of terrain the person is riding.

Yeah, it's just a number, but I'm slightly fixated on numbers.

Thanks,
Amy

[Veronica]

I use what my HRM says, but it also has an altimeter, so I know how much climbing I've done.

V.

[kelownagirl]

I watch my average speed over various routes. My best average by the end of the summer for a flattish route, small smaller hills, and one big hill at the end, was 27kmh. My average speed for a hilly route I often take was 24 kmh. I also time myself up the last big hill and try to beat my last time.

I love numbers too.... :)

[mimitabby]

hills will always slow you down, even guys like Lance are slower on hills.

[makbike]

I go with what my bike computer indicates as well as taking in concideration the terrain I tackled that day. I also track my cycling data (time, avg. speed, max. speed & distance) on a spreadsheet so that I can see how I am progressing as the year clicks by.

[Pedal Wench]

I only use averages to compare to myself on the exact same route. Last year was X, this year X+2. What you can do is use that 10mph average as a starting point, and try to improve that, and only compare that number (if you must) to other people doing the same route under the same conditions.

[Geonz]

I also only cmopare that average speed when it's the same route or at least comparable conditions... and the same route when it's windy will be different, too.

There are so many things you can look at - keeping the speed up above X heading up those hills as long as I can, total time for the trip (less resting), but mainly I look at my *total* accumulated mileage... 'cause that's always improving and I'm a terminal optimist.

[Eden]

I only use averages to compare to myself on the exact same route. Last year was X, this year X+2. What you can do is use that 10mph average as a starting point, and try to improve that, and only compare that number (if you must) to other people doing the same route under the same conditions.

+1
and realize that you will mostly only see the larger changes in your fitness by watching average speed. Small increments get lost in differences in the wind/weather, if you need to slow down for one more red light/turning car etc., how intense the workout you did the day before was and the zillion other things that make every ride different from the last.

[KSH]

Do you base it just on what your bike computer says it is at the end of the ride?

Yep.

This also how I know how to pick what group rides to join.

[ace]

well, interesting that you should say that about using avg speed to know which group rides to join, because that's sort of the source of my question. I'm doing a Cinderella training series that has many groups, all segregated by supposed average speed. The first week I went with the 10-12 mph group, and it was painfully slow for me, so I switched to a group that's 13-15 mph, and they're really pushing us, and telling us we're doing 16-19 mph (and my bike computer confirms this on the flats/rollers). However, my crapola hill performance is making my average come out to 10 mph. I actually looked down and I was doing 3 mph up a really steep hill yesterday. So I can't necessarily base which group I'm going to ride with on my avg. mph.

That makes sense to me, though, only comparing my avg speed when I do the same routes.

I must get better on hills....I heard what you guys said about the only way to get better on them is to do them, but it is really a battleground for me.

[kelownagirl]

me too. I don't hate them anymore but I don't love them either. :p

[Eden]

In general the ride classifications I've seen given by clubs are supposed to be for ideal conditions on the flats - so the 10 -12 group should be going 10-12 on the flats and slower on the hills, etc. It sounds like your 13-15 group is probably pushing the pace a little faster than advertised.....

[jobob]

I'm doing a Cinderella training series that has many groups, all segregated by supposed average speed. Could you ask the ride leaders what they mean by average speed (with respect to the group assignments) ?

Alas, like it or not, you're only going to get stronger & faster on hills if you do more hills. There's no getting around that.

If you can, find a hill near your home and go up and down it a few times during the week. You'll get faster on the flats as well as the hills. Trust me. ;)

[SadieKate]

Yes, trust her. :D

[ace]

I will trust you. I will do the damn hills repeatedly.

The one really really bad hill we did this weekend (something referred to as "the animals" in Fremont) kicked my butt so bad that I was in granny gear about 100 ft from the top of a 2.6 mile climb, and my legs just gave out. I was afraid I was going to fall over, so I stopped. I've never stopped on a hill before. It really pissed me off because I was soooo close, but I just could not safely do it.

Given, I'm 75 lbs overweight, ride a clunky hybrid, and have a still-healing bone bruise in my knee, so I'm cutting myself some slack. But I figure if I practice, lose even 20 lbs and get a road bike, I'll be flying up the hills. How's that for optimism?

[jobob]

I was just checking out the route sheet for the Fremont Freewheelers Cindy training ride. Can't say I'm familiar with those climbs, but I pass by those roads a lot riding up Mission Blvd (SadieKate in fact was doing a bit of grousing on MB yesterday :D ) and the roads off Mission Blvd look mighty hilly so I can imagine those roads were pretty challenging.

Here's hoping you'll ride up The Animals again someday soon and think "gee, that wasn't so bad!" :D

[ace]

Thanks a lot for looking, jobob. The ride leaders kept warning us that the animals were really, really steep, and they did not lie :-) There were some very fun rolling hills that preceded the animals, although I couldn't tell you what road that was...Paseo Padre?

I am actually glad that I am in total ignorance about most of those training routes- I live in Oakland and Fremont is like a foreign land to me. If I know how hard a ride's going to be, I psyche myself out and perform a lot more poorly than if I just dumbly follow a group without knowing what's coming next.

[jobob]

Your ride next week out to Alum Rock Park is going to be very nice, it was one of my faves back when I did the Cindy training series. I still go on that route a lot.

[ace]

How hard is that add-on bit? Long steady climb, steep? What's the grade? I have no idea how "grades" relate to reality, but I'd like to start getting an idea.

I think our group is going to do the add on...See- I guess I do want to know about really steep hills in advance!

[jobob]

The first bit of Calaveras Rd just after you turn right from Piedmont Rd. is fairly steep, about 10%. It doesn't last long though (btw, this is not the Calaveras Wall if anyone is wondering, that's farther up, about a mile past Ed Levin park). After you get over that hump, then the road levels off to a more gradual climb to Ed Levin Park.

The descent back down is really fun though! :D

[ace]

OK, this is truly a stupid question. But what is the steepest grade road a person can actually ride?

[Batbike]

OK, this is truly a stupid question. But what is the steepest grade road a person can actually ride?

it all depends on the cyclist's fitness level and gearing -- a very fit person with lower gearing is going to be able to climb a steeper grade.

now, as for AVERAGE ride speed -- I have always been told, and use it when organizing rides, that the AVERAGE is just that -- the AVERAGE of flats, hills up and hills down. so, if a rider is riding 16 on flats, 6 up hill, and 30 downhill, the AVERAGE is just that within the time frame of the ride ... what speed is lost on an uphill is made-up with increased speed on the downhill, and ride pace is what is usually done on the flats (whch can change if there is a lot of pace line work done on the flats -- usually increasing flat speed). no rider is expected to ride the AVERAGE speed the total ride -- terrain and weather conditions will always affect a ride speed!

don't know if any of that helps, but please give yourself credit for what you CAN do and work on what you want to improve ... that is the only way your AVERAGE speed will increase. good luck on hills ... the more you ride, the easier it becomes (at least that is what I hear!). :D

[Veronica]

OK, this is truly a stupid question. But what is the steepest grade road a person can actually ride?

The last tenth of a mile on Diablo is 17%.

V.

[VeloVT]

Hey, I have a suggestion, if you're fixated on numbers. I subscribe to a service called BIM-Active (you can find out how to download at www.bonesinmotion.com). It uses the GPS capabilities of your cellphone to track speed, distance, elevation, etc of your runs, rides, etc.

I've used it a few times running and the data you get is really cool. Lots of graphs comparing speed changes and elevation changes from mile to mile, also pulls in meteorological info somehow and notes the wind speeds and temps that day. You get a free online blog too.

I would like to start using this more actually, but for some reason, on runs, the stopwatch is still a better motivator for me, so I end up having to use two gadgets, which often still seems like too much hassle... But you might like it as it not only gives your overall average speed, but also gives the average speed of each mile with the elevation change in that mile, so you can really understand where you're slowing down and why. And compare your performance on flats to subsequent flats, and hills to subsequent hills.

Good luck!

[Eden]

OK, this is truly a stupid question. But what is the steepest grade road a person can actually ride?

There is a street in Pittsburgh called Canton Ave. that's been unofficially measured at 37% :eek: There is a race there called the "Dirty Dozen", which is 12 hill climbs (climb hill get a time, ride to the next hill, climb hill, etc. etc.) and Canton is on the route. There is some tounge and cheek rhetoric about the race not continuing until all riders make it to the top of Canton Ave.(judges reserve the right to go temporarily blind....), but at very least the winner always does - so I guess you can do 37% if you are fit enough! There is a hill around here that comes in at 26% - the last time I tried that one I was lifting my front wheel off of the ground and had to get off. Sometime I need to get out and try that one again with my new bike.

[Trekhawk]

There is a street in Pittsburgh called Canton Ave. that's been unofficially measured at 37% :eek: There is a race there called the "Dirty Dozen", which is 12 hill climbs (climb hill get a time, ride to the next hill, climb hill, etc. etc.) and Canton is on the route. There is some tounge and cheek rhetoric about the race not continuing until all riders make it to the top of Canton Ave.(judges reserve the right to go temporarily blind....), but at very least the winner always does - so I guess you can do 37% if you are fit enough! There is a hill around here that comes in at 26% - the last time I tried that one I was lifting my front wheel off of the ground and had to get off. Sometime I need to get out and try that one again with my new bike.

YIKES:eek: The one time my front wheel came off the ground on my road bike it scared the hell out of me. Ive decided when that happens its way too steep for this rider:D

[AllezGirl]

Hey, I know that one! Haven't been brave enough to ride it yet, but it is one of my long term goals... A friend of mine (Danny Chew), is one of the organizers and I don't think he's going to let me off the hook.

It's actually a baker's dozen (13 hills) including Canton Ave, which is really 36-37%! It's pretty cool. You can check his website www.dannychew.com for more details and pics. I think there are some videos form this years ride on youtube too.

sorry for the drift....

[Eden]

I grew up in Pittsburgh, but the race started long after I moved away...

in fact I used to think I was pretty alone out there - hardly ever saw other cyclists, but it seems like a pretty hopping scene these days - even weekday races down where they used to do the drivers tests down near the zoo

[AllezGirl]

Well, if you ever want to come back and ride it let me know.

I'll come out to cheer you on :D

[Trekhawk]

Hey, I know that one! Haven't been brave enough to ride it yet, but it is one of my long term goals... A friend of mine (Danny Chew), is one of the organizers and I don't think he's going to let me off the hook.

It's actually a baker's dozen (13 hills) including Canton Ave, which is really 36-37%! It's pretty cool. You can check his website www.dannychew.com for more details and pics. I think there are some videos form this years ride on youtube too.

sorry for the drift....

Yikes I just checked out the site and they have a pic of a couple walking up Canton with snow on it. That is just scary steep. :eek:

[AllezGirl]

I live in Philly...which has turned into a very cycling friendly city. Even having a Bike Philly event this year, modeled after the Five Boroughs tour...

I haven't ridden in Pittsburgh, but I know a boatload of cyclists from that area. Most are racers, and very strong hill climbers, go figure :rolleyes:

[Batbike]

I grew up in Pittsburgh, but the race started long after I moved away...

in fact I used to think I was pretty alone out there - hardly ever saw other cyclists, but it seems like a pretty hopping scene these days - even weekday races down where they used to do the drivers tests down near the zoo

I grew up in Pittsburgh too! I was only 13 when I moved away, but I still remember riding my pink 10spd JC Penney bicycle all through the hills of Pittsburgh! Of course, NEVER went downtown and on Canton St. -- WHAT A HILL ... I can't even imagine TRYING to ride up it, let alone actually doing it!!! :eek: The grade itself makes it almost straight-up, then back before 2005or 2006, the road was cobblestone ... the whole idea of riding a bike up that hill makes my mind boggle! ;):cool:

[Eden]

boy its been a while (I guess I didn't quite move away before the dirty dozen started (left in '90), but seems like it was more just a small group of friends before the late 90's) My favorite ride was from my house in Carrick all of the way out to around Cheswick and back. I aways had S. 18th street to look forward to on my way home as my big climb.

[AllezGirl]

It's still cobblestone...at least as of November 06.

[Batbike]

WOW! still cobblestone ... obsolutely AMAZING that there are cyclist who can climb a 37% grade cobblestone road!!! I am in total AWE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AllezGirl]

http://hypersurface.net/dpetrou/bicycling/dd2006/dd2006_gallery/dd2006_gallery-Pages/Image238.html

oops...the pic didn't work! (It was of the cyclist beating the runner)

Well...here's Danny's account of at. Apparently there are some that not only ride up it once, but multiple times!

"A party atmosphere developes atop Canton Avenue each year. Those riders who have already made the hill stand at the top, and cheer on those riders attempting to make the hill (some needing more than one try). Many rookies fail to make Canton their first attempt because either they don't take the hill seriously enough or another rider(s) crashes in front of them. In the Canton Avenue Challenge (cyclist versus runner) this year, sprinter Ryan McDermitt (on bike) barely beat shoeless runner Joe Ross on the cobblestones. A triathlete, Joe finished the DD this year. You may remember Joe on the cover of Sundays Pittsburgh Post-Gazette newspaper last year - running against Cummings (on bike) up Canton. In another challenge, Joe Vallese & another cyclist (both on bikes) clearly beat triathlete Billy Kanarek (DD finisher this year) who ran up the steps alongside the cobblestones. Rather than just wait, some people feel the need to ride up (conquer) Canton multiple times such as 52 year old Greg Ellis who climbed it 4 times. "

[RoadRaven]

Just going back to the discussion on page 1...

When I first got on a bike, I was obsessed with my average speed and how to make it better.
As I got more experienced, time on the bike became more relevant and useful and my average speed an interesting statistic but not a goal...

Pedal Wench, Geonz and Eden have hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Averages are only useful in terms of measuring your performance over the same or similar course/s. If you zip over to BikeJournal and look at one of my months, you'll see that while I race at an average speed of somewhere between 27-32kph, most of my rides are under 26kph average.

If I am doing hill reps, my average for the ride will be under 20kph, and yet the power output and intensity of the ride will be much much more than when I do a recovery ride on the flat and average 25-26kph.

Regarding joining group rides...

Our club gives suggested averages for each of the six grades...
For example, the beginners grade (G) often has a winning/finishing average of 28-30kph over a 17-20km course while the top/elite grade (A) often has a winning/finishing average of over 40kph over a 35-40km course.

[equus123]

Myself nor my teammates go by the average speed calculation. It's really not needed at a certain point. The only thing we use when talking about pace and speed is the speed we actually ride at. Big difference between that and calculated average speed on your computer. For example, we'll go on a 35 mi ride. On any given road we're between 19-23 mph. However when we get back to the bike shop and get off our bikes, the computer may say that our average speed was like 17.5 - 18.3. Big difference. So we just go based on what speed we physically ride at. It's easier and better anyway because like everyone has said - terrain, wind, temp, elevation, lights, stop signs, etc. - all affect your speed.

That's my 2 cents :)

[Possegal]

i mentioned that i'm from pittsburgh and that some of these nasty hills are right near where i grew up. i have been back there a lot lately and on one trip i drove the couple of blocks to one of the streets on the 'dirty dozen' hill challenge. in fact, i was probably there when they had the 2007 challenge and i should have paid better attention.

anyway, this is boustead ave in pittsburgh. though it is claimed to be a 29% grade, they say it is likely steeper than canton ave (the 37% one talked about here) in the middle of it, just that boustead is longer and flattens at the top so it lowers the overall grade of the road.

can't believe people bike up this and i can proudly say i have no intention of ever trying. :) and trust me, the photo doesn't do it justice. not sure if there is a photographic way to really show how steep it is!

[nancy sv]

How do I determine my average speed? I just say s - l - o - w

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

anyway, this is boustead ave in pittsburgh. though it is claimed to be a 29% grade, they say it is likely steeper than canton ave (the 37% one talked about here) in the middle of it, just that boustead is longer and flattens at the top so it lowers the overall grade of the road.

can't believe people bike up this and i can proudly say i have no intention of ever trying. :) and trust me, the photo doesn't do it justice. not sure if there is a photographic way to really show how steep it is!

I guess the photo does not do it justice at all because it looks pretty much like the hill going up to my house! (in rural NY) :rolleyes: :o FWIW, I "zoom" up my hill at 2.5 mph. :rolleyes:

Anyone have a link to the photo mentioned earlier of Canton Ave?

[Possegal]

trust me, i don't speed up boustead in my CAR, in fact, i won't drive up it, only down it. so yes, apparently the photo does not do it justice. i'll have to try the angle from the top of the hill when i go home next week, maybe that will convey it better. in fact, i bet it will, so i will try that and resurrect this thread yet again. :)

here is canton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_Avenue and here is video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxWceFTkLRU
37% grade, on cobblestones. the guy who posted this video posted some other streets, but not boustead. you should see links for some other streets on the page for the canton video. suffolk street is also not far from me, as is canton.


let's see if i can add the pic of the the man running in his socks who challenged the bike winner, and beat him. running up canton faster than the biker.

hopefully you can see how steep canton is from these links/pics, and like i said, folks say boustead is probably steeper just that the grade of the road is for the whole road and since it is flat at a few spots, the 28% grade doesn't rightly show how steep it is at some points.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

AAAGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Possegal]

he he he. :) now naturally these are not roads that i ever felt the need to try, nor was it necessary to travel on them. for me at least. pity the folks who need to drive them because of where they live! especially in the snow! as a kid riding a bike in pittsburgh i learned quickly how to get anywhere with the least amount of hills. but that didn't mean no hills. at least it never meant any of the dirty dozen hills. :)

[jobob]

Good grief !!! :eek:

[smilingcat]

+1 about avg speed. It should only be used on a fixed course you use on regular basis. If you change your course, your avg speed will greatly change. When I do hill reps, I may only avg 11-13mph. going up and down. Byt the time I do my last climb, my legs are frazzled and can only average 8mph.

as for the steepest hills, it seems most are around 30-37% range. I might try the LA hill climb. see how many reps I can do. :D

Steep climbs :
Climb the kaiser with near 20% grade for half a mile from big creek station to billy creek lunch stop elevation 5280' GPS reading at big creek. lunch stop was over 8,000' after riding for less than 5 miles.

another one was at Sierra Classic on slug gulch. A set of stair case climb. 200foot climb with about 100' flat "rest area" about 18% grade on the climb.

death ride on Ebetts. At hairpin turns, the inside portion hits about 18%.

--------------

Ace,

if you have had knee trouble, seriously think about going to a triple with 30+ cog in rear. Climbing hills by mashing is extremely hard on the knee. So do be careful.

smilingcat

[Brandy]

as for the steepest hills, it seems most are around 30-37% range. I might try the LA hill climb. see how many reps I can do. :D



Smilingcat...is that Fargo Street that you're talking about?

[smilingcat]

Smilingcat...is that Fargo Street that you're talking about?

yes that's the one... :D :D :D I'm more worried about the descent. Can a regular caliper brake cool down enough or will it overheat with just one descent?

If I do the ride on my road bike, I will be swapping out my regular double with a compact double and look for an oversized cluster in the rear. And I'll probably have my friend at the bottom with my water. No point in lifiting all that water to the top of the hill. this is where every ounce of weight counts.

smilingcat

[Brandy]

yes that's the one... :D :D :D I'm more worried about the descent. Can a regular caliper brake cool down enough or will it overheat with just one descent?

If I do the ride on my road bike, I will be swapping out my regular double with a compact double and look for an oversized cluster in the rear. And I'll probably have my friend at the bottom with my water. No point in lifiting all that water to the top of the hill. this is where every ounce of weight counts.

smilingcat

We went to Fargo Street on Easter Sunday when my boyfriend made several ascents and descents. I have no desire to try it!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/230/452459790_781ed04a9b_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/208/452482267_a7e484bbe5_b.jpg

Here's the set of pics...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclemama/sets/72157600058662879/

[RoadRaven]

OK... re that pic on the previous page - I want to know who won that race!!!


Pssst... Brandy... love your bf's helmet!
(Pretty impressive to get up there... how does he find his Scott?)

[Possegal]

do you mean the race between the guy in socks and the biker?? if so, the guy in socks ran up the hill faster than the cyclist biked it. :)

[Brandy]

Pssst... Brandy... love your bf's helmet!
(Pretty impressive to get up there... how does he find his Scott?)

Yes, I know. That was back in the day, before he realized that he has to listen to me. :p He's a good boy now and wears his helmet. :D

Oh, and he loves his Scott!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Hmm...funny, I didn't notice that he wasn't wearing a helmet. ;)

[Brandy]

Hmm...funny, I didn't notice that he wasn't wearing a helmet. ;)

His nice legs usually get my attention when I look at that picture. :p

[7rider]

Is Canton Ave in Pittsburgh the road referred to as "the wall" in the US Pro crit races?

Nevermind....it's Manyunk Wall in Philly....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5487v8_N1iQ
Favorite quote: "Any predictions on the race (winner)?" "Yeah. He's gonna have a tight a$$ and it's gonna happen in about 3 hours."

[RoadRaven]

do you mean the race between the guy in socks and the biker?? if so, the guy in socks ran up the hill faster than the cyclist biked it. :)

Yup - I did
Thanks
Great pic - I'm going to make it my wallpaper at work for a while (my current wallpaper is Onone Wood timetrialling... though I am still on leave til Feb though - waahoo!!!)

OK... next question:
Who made it down more quickly :p:cool: