Overtraining... or just a wimp?

[Bluetree]

I train six days a week. Typically, I run 2-3 times (one or two short runs + one longer run), swim 3 times (just drills/form right now, only 30 min or so) and ride my bike 2-3 times. My coach says I'm doing more than necessary for a sprint tri but I feel comfortable at this pace, about 10-12 hours a week. Any less, and I feel like jumping out of my skin!

Most of my cycling buddies like to do weekend rides, like centuries or climbing to Mt Baldy and stuff like that. I'd like to join them sometime. But on a bike, I seem to hit a wall at about the 2- to 2-1/2 mark, and I'm crawling home in my granny gear at 3 hours.

I'd like to ride a century, or at least a good 60-miler with some hills on the weekend, but can't seem to do it. Am I just a wimp, or is there something else going on here?

[mimitabby]

Is this a food issue?
can you take a break and walk around for 30 minutes and get back on the bike?
We ALL know you're not a wimp!

[KSH]

No, you are not a whimp.

It just sounds like you need to find a comfortable cruising speed on your bike. One where you aren't working too hard, and with the proper rest stops and food intake... you could go for hours.

When you hit the wall... what does it feel like? What is happening? Is your breathing labored? Do you lose all energy? What have eaten up until that point? What did you eat before the ride? Have you had any rest stops? Is your average higher or lower than when you go, say, 20 miles on your bike?

There is no reason why you can't go any further on your bike. Answer a few of those questions and I bet we can figure out why you are hitting the wall when you do.

[Bluetree]

We ALL know you're not a wimp!

((((Mimi))))

Actually, the feeling is more like I have nothing left in my quads. There's a little pain, but mostly it's just non-responsiveness and deadness. I have tried the rest-stop thing, but I feel my legs tightening up when I continue. I'l try to eat more, but I suspect it has to do with my increased running.. and I can't stop doing that - I'VE ALREADY PAID MY TRI ENTRY FEES!!! :eek:

Watching the others ride away...

[Bluetree]

Let's see...

When you hit the wall... what does it feel like?
(See above)

What is happening?
Usually happens after two hours. I'm not tired... my quads have just said, "Enough!"

Is your breathing labored? Do you lose all energy?
No and not really. Just in my legs.

What have eaten up until that point? What did you eat before the ride?
A little more carbs than usual the night before (500-600 calories). Usually a carb-protein meal one hour prior to my ride (400-500 calories). One bottle of energy drink per hour.

Have you had any rest stops? Is your average higher or lower than when you go, say, 20 miles on your bike?
No rest stops. My average in my first hour is about 17-18mph, but varies because the ocean winds vary so much. My second hour drops 1-2mph. It's when I get into my third hour when I start losing it.

[KSH]

Let's see...

When you hit the wall... what does it feel like?
(See above)

What is happening?
Usually happens after two hours. I'm not tired... my quads have just said, "Enough!"

Is your breathing labored? Do you lose all energy?
No and not really. Just in my legs.

What have eaten up until that point? What did you eat before the ride?
A little more carbs than usual the night before (500-600 calories). Usually a carb-protein meal one hour prior to my ride (400-500 calories). One bottle of energy drink per hour.

Have you had any rest stops? Is your average higher or lower than when you go, say, 20 miles on your bike?
No rest stops. My average in my first hour is about 17-18mph, but varies because the ocean winds vary so much. My second hour drops 1-2mph. It's when I get into my third hour when I start losing it.

I understand what you mean, when your legs just feel *dead*... and every time you pedal, it's pain.

I had that the 2nd day of the MS150 last year. Oddly, I found that if I just kept pedaling... well, I could do it. Sure, it hurt... but I kept going. Of course, it's not something I would want to experience on every ride. Not really a pleasant experience.

With that said... I would wonder how you would do if you dropped your average early on. Maybe hold a 15-16 mph average? It might be your high average that's killing your legs and keeping you from going the extra miles. Maybe this is something you can ponder with your coach?

Something I have come to terms with... is that sometimes I have to ride my own ride.. and my ride is slower than others. You might be pushing yourself too hard for longer distances... as you are trying to keep up with faster people. ????

Well... just slowing down your average early on is about all I can come up with. Might be worth trying... once? Or ask your coach about it. I'm certainly NOT an expert by any means.

Good luck in unlocking the secret to getting further down the road.

[Wahine]

What KSH said plus 1.

Try lowering your pace early on. If you're on a long ride, ride the first half easy, like you could go all day, then if you wnat to push you can kick it up a bit in the second half. This is called a negative split and it's a great way to increase aerobic endurance.

I would also try to eat something on your ride, beyond the energy drink. I like gels myself. My stomach can't handle anything to heavy while I ride. My favorites are Gu and Accelerade (sp). You take them every 45 min to 1 hour during activity. Then on the really long rides I'll stop at a store at the mid point and buy a coke and/or a chocolate bar. It really helps to maintain the glycogen in my quads on the 4 plus hour rides.

[LBTC]

I'm with KSH and Wahine on this both. Lower your pace a bit right at the start. You have to have a pace you can maintain.

And food. I think the energy drink is not enough. Try to time your food and drink intake so it's pretty steady and you're taking it in before you feel like you need it.

You are obviously not a wimp, and I don't think this is a symptom of overtraining, I think it's just trying to do an endurance ride at a sprint pace.

Give it a try and let us know how it goes!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[Wahine]

BTW Bluetree, you're definitely not a whimp. Apart form not going as long as me on the weekends, your are training as hard as I am and I'm training for IM!! But I also don't think that you're over training, as long as you get some rest weeks in there.

[rocknrollgirl]

Hi Bluetree, Hi Everybody...

This is very interesting. I had this exact conversation with my husband Saturday on the way back from mt biking. It is what prompted me to post my I need a Pep Talk thread.

I get that same way when I am mt biking with our group, which is all guys by the way.
The DH says...what do you expect...we (the guys) ride at your race pace, so I am riding at my max the whole ride. End result..Fried Quads.

I would agree with everyone else....adjust your pace. Can you make the change and still ride with the group?

[Tri Girl]

The others have all offered excellent advice, so I have nothing further to add- except you are NOT a wimp Bluetree (and if you are a wimp, then one day I hope to be as big a wimp as you :) ).
That is all....


Oh- and I've wanted to ask you this for a while- is that your horse in your avatar??

[Tri Girl]

so I am riding at my max the whole ride. End result..Fried Quads.


So true- that's why when I was IM training (and really any time I train long on the bike), I have to ride alone. Not exactly fun, but what I have to do to survive. When I ride with others (most all of them faster than me), I'm riding max the whole time, then crash and burn. Even mtn biking with my DH, he rides behind me, or he'd fly off and I'd be burning to keep up with him.

Why oh why don't I have man-quads. :p

[spokewench]

I agree with the other posters, don't ride so fast and you will last longer. Going distances is also just like any other kind of training. You are doing specific training for your triathalon sport, but you are not training for endurance riding. Some people seem to have a more natural endurance "gene". I do not. I have always had to make an effort to go long to feel good going long.

I can usually always ride 2 hours at a high pace, but over that, I get fried. Eat more on longer rides than you think you need to. second, train for long rides; so you are going to have to go on those weekend rides that are longer.

Last year, my goal was only to get my climbing and endurance training in cause I was doing the BIcycle tour of colorado and I wanted to do this without a lot of pain every day. So, I rode longer miles at a slower pace and did lots of hills. I basically trained for the specific thing that I was trying to do.

Hope this helps

[Bluetree]

Hmmm.. definitely food for thought.

Is 17-18mph fast? I always thought it was slow, because my friends have to slow down to stay at my pace (they regularly ride at 20+). I have nothing which which to gauge my speed because I don't know any other beginners or women with whom I could ride. I will definitely try it, though. It makes a alot of sense! You gals always come through! :D

TriGirl, that horse is named Captain Steve. I wish I owned him (he won $6 million at the track) but alas, I just painted him for a client.:rolleyes:

RnRGirl That's it! Fried Quads. It makes me think...
"One order of Fried Quads coming up! Would you like a side of Screaming Girly Bits with that?"

[rocknrollgirl]

I like my Fried Quaddies with a side of Tough Chickie!!!!!

[KSH]

Is 17-18mph fast? I always thought it was slow, because my friends have to slow down to stay at my pace (they regularly ride at 20+). I have nothing which which to gauge my speed because I don't know any other beginners or women with whom I could ride. I will definitely try it, though. It makes a alot of sense! You gals always come through!


Here in Texas... where we have very few hills... here is how the rides and speeds break out:

11-13 mph is a slow group.

14-16 mph is an average group. Very few fall into this catagory.

17-19 mph is an intermediate group and rather fast. I can never keep up with this group, even after 2 years of riding.

Anything over 19 mph is FAST. Those are the top riders.


Please keep in mind, that we ride mostly flats around here.

And, the average is what shows on your computer at the END of a ride... so if you are averaging 16 mph, that means that you are probably going 18 mph+ a lot of the ride. The average drops because of turns and stop lights.

With that said... your average is fast.

[indysteel]

I agree with KSH's breakdown of average speeds. Until the weather turned cold here, I was averaging between 16 and 17 mph for long rides and that took some effort.

A woman I ride with recently posted a message on our local bike club's forum indicating that she averages 19 mph on her rides and I about fell over in my chair when I read that. Having ridden with her nearly every weekend from September until January, I know for certain that we have never even come close to that. Sure, we hit that speed and faster at stretches here an there, but we don't average that over the course of the ride. In my opinion, that's fast!

As for your wall, I agree with the suggestions that you eat more on the bike. I like Clif Blocks, trail mix, gels, bananas, fig bars, etc. It helps to just experiment with what works for you/what your stomach can handle. I'd also suggest drinking water in addition to your energy drinks. I usually bring a bottle of both for any ride longer than 30 miles. Also, stretch while you're on the bike and at rest stops.

Finally, I'd make sure that your saddle's fore/aft position is set to maximize your glutes. The predominant theory suggests that your knee should fall directly over or (for longer rides) slightly behind the pedal spindle when your foot is horizontal to the ground. Otherwise you tend to work your quads, which fatigue more quickly and aren't as powerful, more than your glutes. As an aside, I'd note that you can use this same theory to your advantage when you climb by moving forward and backward on the saddle so that you spread out the fatigue/load between muscle groups.

In any event, from what I've read of your training routine, you are not a wimp, but no matter how well trained you are, it takes time to build up endurance on the bike. From my experience, I was able to do 35 miles when I first started riding without too many problems. I had to increase my mileage slowly from there, and the first time I did a ride in excess of 50 miles kicked my butt. It got easier with time and practice. Slow your speed a bit, increase your mileage slowly and experiment with speed/food/liquid consumption while on the bike to see what feels good.

[Bluetree]

I am such an idiot.

Whap. Whap. Whap. Sound of ruler whacking my head

Several weeks ago, I had a complete refit on my bike!
I had it refitted to a more aero, aggressive position. I didn't even think of it, other than, "Gee, I just added 2mph on my flat cruising speed... cool."
It never entered my head that the extra speed came from somewhere even if I didn't feel any extra exertion at the time. Indy's post just reminded my of my positioning. Whap whap. (KSH, I didn't word it correctly - my average is about 15-16, but my cruising speed is 17-18mph).
Gee, I knew my body was slow-twitch, but I didn't realize my brain was, too. :rolleyes: Thanks for all your advice, gals. And I will watch my pace and caloric intake! Whap.

[Dianyla]

Seconding the recommendation to eat more on the bike. Also, are you doing proper glycogen replenishment immediately after riding? If you don't catch that glycogen window, it could take days for your legs to get out of that putty stage.

Congrats on the fit improvements!

[KSH]

A woman I ride with recently posted a message on our local bike club's forum indicating that she averages 19 mph on her rides and I about fell over in my chair when I read that. Having ridden with nearly every weekend from September until January, I know for certain that we have never even come close to that. Sure, we hit that speed and faster at stretches here an there, but we don't average that over the course of the ride. In my opinion, that's fast!


Well, unfortunately, what an average speed is... is a huge point of confusion.

I use to think that if I looked down and saw 18-20 mph on my computer... a fair amount of times, that was my average. This was BEFORE I had a bike computer that was able to do an overall average for a ride.

Once I upgraded my computer, I quickly realized that I was no where near as fast as I thought I was.

I think a lot of people get a bit confused by this.

[Tri Girl]

Oh- now I really wish the horse was yours- especially since it won 6 million at the track! ;)
Oh well- you painted a beautiful picture, tho!!!!

[crazycanuck]

Thanks for the info ladies. I took it into consideration today whilst aiming to do a 50km ride after work. Speed, Food and drink ok..Sunscreen in my eyes sunglasses driving me nuts and shorts rubbing not ok. I thought i had enough anti chafing cream on but obviously not.

Moral-don't be in a hurry to put sunscreen on & too close to your eyes...

Thank you again for the information.

c

[Bluetree]

Well, I took all your advice on my ride this morning.

Eat more
Slow my pace from 18mph to 15mph
Eat even more
Take breaks, stretched

Result: Today's ride was 5 hours and no quad issues! Ate a ginormous custard-filled pastry at my turnaround point and kept up with the Accelerade. Ended up with 59 miles, then rode around the block trying to bump up to an even 60. Not even tired.

THANKS TE GIRLS!!!

[Wahine]

WAY TO GO BLUETREE!!

We knew you could do it. You just had to learn to pace yourself better and eat a little more. I for one, am very proud of you.

[Bluetree]

(((( Wahine )))) :D

[Wahine]

Blue - South Bay is LA area right?

My SIL lives in Brentwood. DH and I go down there at least once a year. We should go for a ride sometime.

[KSH]

Well, I took all your advice on my ride this morning.

Eat more
Slow my pace from 18mph to 15mph
Eat even more
Take breaks, stretched

Result: Today's ride was 5 hours and no quad issues! Ate a ginormous custard-filled pastry at my turnaround point and kept up with the Accelerade. Ended up with 59 miles, then rode around the block trying to bump up to an even 60. Not even tired.

THANKS TE GIRLS!!!

WOAH!

Look at how you upped your miles! I'm impressed! WAY TO GO!!!!

:D

[Bluetree]

Thanks K!

Wahine - Definitely let's ride. Are you bringing yor bike down? If not, there is a place called Triathlete Zombies in Santa Monica, not too far from Brentwood.

http://triathletezombies.com/
Rental Services: Looking for a bicycle to use during your stay in the area? Have a visiting friend or relative who needs a bike to ride with you? Want to try something new? We rent bicycles from each of our locations and we rent triathlon wetsuits from our Manhattan Beach store. Call us to describe what you need and we'll work with you to find the right rental equipment for your event or vacation.

[Wahine]

I'll let you know the next time I'm coming to LA LA Land.

Thanks for the Tri-Zombies tip. I've been to the store before but I didn't know that they rented bikes. I even have a tri-zombies sticker on my Nalgene bottle. I love their logo.

Hast Luego.