English homework question

[lph]

You still can't walk into a store and say "I'd like a bread", can you?? You have to ask for a loaf, right? :confused:

And isn't it still considered rude to say "Do you want x" or "I want y", instead of "I'd like"? Or is that just in England?

"I want a bread" is a perfect word-by-word translation of the Norwegian phrase, but sounds horrendous to me. Before I go tell off my sons English teacher I thought I'd better check if the (British) English I learnt 30 years ago still is current... ;)

[mimitabby]

you could say "I'd like bread"
"I'd like some bread"
or "I'd like a loaf of bread"

it isn't so rude to say "I want that" it's not as dramatic a difference as it is,
say, in Italian.

[Kitsune06]

No, you're completely correct. "I want" is rarely used; kind of informal, too. and I'd *really* have problems with someone who would say "I want a bread" :p

[Bikingmomof3]

Hi lph! My dearest friend moved back to Norway and is having similar discussions with me about her children's teachers.

"I'd like a bread", try "I would like a loaf of bread."

"Do you want x" try, "Would you like x?" or "Would you care for x?"

"I want y", try "I would like y."

[lph]

Ok, thanks!

My mother is American but has lived in Norway since she was 18, and has been an English teacher all her life, adult education. She taught English in various workplaces, among others in Parliament, and I've grown up hearing her gripe about how even well-educated Norwegians have such trouble learning that "I want this" or "I want that" sounds rude, and how they'd even challenge her on it, saying that "well, Norwegians are direct, you know"... As if that should count as a good thing :rolleyes:

Anyway, glad to hear that English hasn't degenerated completely in my absence ;)

"A bread" :eek:

Off to reproach said teacher.

[chickwhorips]

Anyway, glad to hear that English hasn't degraded completely in my absence ;)

key word there is: completely

[Kitsune06]

key word there is: completely

I must hug you for this post!!! ((((((CWR!!!!)))))))

English is degrading rapidly. I used to read books written in the 1800s, then compare the language used then, the variance in vocabulary utilized, to modern novels and just despair. I've accepted it as a fact now, but... *sigh*

[Geonz]

It would be like saying, "I would like a gasoline." You need a unit :)


...or, better yet "I need a love." Naw, you need a whole LOTTA love, a loaf of love :D :D :D

[Wahine]

I must hug you for this post!!! ((((((CWR!!!!)))))))

English is degrading rapidly. I used to read books written in the 1800s, then compare the language used then, the variance in vocabulary utilized, to modern novels and just despair. I've accepted it as a fact now, but... *sigh*

Plus 1 here. I love languages. I love vocabulary. I know languages are changing, living things. But I do feel it's degenerated badly. I think we are losing much of what was considered common politeness. It's so sad. Especially when you compare English to Spanish, French or Italian.

[lph]

It would be like saying, "I would like a gasoline." You need a unit :)

Heh. That reminded me of a favourite Doonesbury cartoon, of a politician (the president?) being asked a difficult question in front of a horde of reporters. Politician blathers on for several paragraphs, in effect saying nothing, until one of the reporters pipes up: "A verb, sir, we need a verb!"

[mimitabby]

Plus 1 here. I love languages. I love vocabulary. I know languages are changing, living things. But I do feel it's degenerated badly. I think we are losing much of what was considered common politeness. It's so sad. Especially when you compare English to Spanish, French or Italian.

Just compare English to English. Read "Little women" which was written around the turn of the last century and then pick up a good novel written for young women today. The difference in vocabulary is stunning. My Italian friends all tell me that English is easy. No wonder, we use about a 300 word vocabulary!

[Veronica]

Well what do you expect when our children are spending hours a day watching TV or playing video games?

That's not how vocabulary gets built.

V.

[SadieKate]

Comen agayn?

I don't understand how you can say the English language has degenerated. Perhaps there is a growing number of individuals who exhibit poor use of it, poor grammar, poor spelling and punctuation, or impoliteness by today's standards, or limited vocabulary, but the language itself is ever living, breathing and morphing. It's a wonderful thing. New words come into being and some go by the way side. Grammar changes as the language adapts to our cultural changes. Chaucer's vocabulary, syntax and pronunciation were vastly different than the language modern Brits speak. I think we'd have a hard time understanding each other, but is this bad? I don't think so. Language changes with us and we change the language.

That is the truthiness of my world view. :D

[Trekhawk]

Well what do you expect when our children are spending hours a day watching TV or playing video games?

That's not how vocabulary gets built.

V.

I agree - that why we dont have TV. Well we have a TV to watch the occasional DVD but its not connected to anything else.:)

[Bruno28]

I don't understand how you can say the English language has degenerated. Perhaps there is a growing number of individuals who exhibit poor use of it, poor grammar, poor spelling and punctuation, or impoliteness by today's standards, or limited vocabulary, but the language itself is ever living, breathing and morphing.

Language changes with us and we change the language.



Well said! Language is organic. A lot of what comes through to us from the past is formal, educated English. Look at 'literary' novels today and the language is just as rich. Similarly, young people show huge inventiveness in language use in informal settings.

[Veronica]

My students actually love vocabulary time. Today we talked about how quadruplets are often born prematurely.

I have a kid who is never punctual and who's handwriting is illegible. You can bet he knows those words. And they have started describing characters in novels as obstinate.

The day I pretended my hand was adhered to the wall was pretty humorous. We're working hard to augment their vocabulary. :D

V.

[lph]

Perhaps there is a growing number of individuals who exhibit poor use of it, poor grammar, poor spelling and punctuation or impoliteness by today's standards, or limited vocabulary, but the language itself is ever living, breathing and morphing.

Well, I agree that language does and should change, but it bothers me that peoples awareness of it is diminishing. As you said, an increasing number of people exhibit poor use of language, poor spelling and limited vocabulary - but they don't seem to care. It's not that a language should be static - I'll gladly use words I make up myself to suit the moment an i doan allus spell em rite eether ;) - but I wish more people would care more about the way they express themselves.

Present company excepted, of course. TE is packed with people who write well.

[mimitabby]

Well said! Language is organic. A lot of what comes through to us from the past is formal, educated English. Look at 'literary' novels today and the language is just as rich. Similarly, young people show huge inventiveness in language use in informal settings.

Bruno, show me an American English modern novel that rivals "Little Women" by Louisa May Alcott or something written by D I C K E N S in terms of Vocabulary.
True, people can still spin good tales, but I don't see the vocabulary nor do I see the grammar. (I should talk! eeek!)

[SadieKate]

Barbara Kingsolver and Charles Frazier, to name two authors.

[SadieKate]

Ivan Doig, Diane Smith and Edward Abbey.

Would you like me to keep going? :p

[alpinerabbit]

But there's a lot of live language being invented all the time.

Think of words like Thread hijack or blogosphere.

[SadieKate]

Audrey Niffenegger. Wallace Stegner.

Mimi, tell me when to stop.

[SadieKate]

A.B. Guthrie. John Steinbeck.

Mimi, I'll be plum worn out if you don't speak up soon.:)

[chickwhorips]

SK your making my head spin!

[Trek420]

oooh, Stegner, Stienbeck ... Zora Neil Hurston if you haven't read Their Eyes were Watching God yet, go read it.

[Bruno28]

Bruno, show me an American English modern novel that rivals "Little Women" by Louisa May Alcott or something written by D I C K E N S in terms of Vocabulary.
True, people can still spin good tales, but I don't see the vocabulary nor do I see the grammar. (I should talk! eeek!)


Not big on American novels-

Joyce Carol Oates? 'Blonde' for example.
Steinbeck?

Ian McEwan (English)

I understand what you say mimi but I think, at least in part , what we see is increasing use of informal language in public settings.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a bit of a grammar anorak and I admire well written prose. Linguistic studies have shown that what we think of as 'correct' grammar is actually greek and latin grammar forced onto English prose by Victorians through the British public school system. This was highlighted by early work by computer programmers trying to design translating machines. The main role of grammar is to avoid ambiguity in communication.There is an argument that grammar is hard-wired by the time we are born.

This is all from recollection of studying linguistics twenty five years ago so might be complete nonsense!

PS spelling was also organic until the invention of the printing press!

[mimitabby]

Sadie kate, I didn't want you to stop, I was enjoying your list.
:D

You guys named a lot of novelists that I have enjoyed.

[Bikingmomof3]

Zora Neil Hurston if you haven't read Their Eyes were Watching God yet, go read it.

I second Trek. :)

[Bruno28]

I just remembered Toni Morrison.