Should Men be allowed in a Women's Forum?

[Bluetree]

This is a topic that has come up on some other threads, and because it is such a general question, I thought perhaps it would be much better to start a new thread right in the main forum, and perhaps invite the moderators or administrators.

Mr Silver has been an invited guest to this Forum by some members, yet others do not agree to his presence. This question does not apply to him specifically but in general, pertaining to all men.

Should Men Be Allowed in a Women's Forum?
Please let everyone know your opinion in a civilized and calm manner. It seems to me to be a rather important issue that should include everyone. It would be sad to see someone made welcome and then made unwelcome not because of any wrong they have done, but because there is no clear policy.


Edit: For those interested in reading the original discussion, it was a thread hijack under "Nutrition":
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=12655

[Triskeliongirl]

Wow, I am really surprised by this thread cuz I had no clue anyone had a problem with men posting here. Just for a little history, Mr. Silver first started posting as Silver to inform us of Silver's accident, and give us updates (which I personally very much appreciated). Some of us then encouraged him to create his own account, since accounts are individual, to prevent confusion between posts he made (which I think we all welcomed as updates on silver's condition) and posts that silver was starting to make as she recovered. And yes, sometimes he posts to give us the male perspective on things, and frankly I have found his posts insightful and helpful. To me, what makes this a womens forum, is that we discuss issues that are of general interest to women cyclists, and do it in a way that is more respectful than *some* male dominated forums. But where does it say that men aren't welcome? Sure if a guy (or gal for that matter) posts things that are obnoxious and insulting, we should ask them to leave. But to me this forum isn't about anyones gender or sexual orientation, but a forum with an emphasis on 'women's cycling', so as long as that emphasis is respected, anyone should be welcome to post. And remember, girls, this is the WWW, anyone can claim to be of whatever gender they want and post, so why care if someone is being honest about who they are? Don't think for a minute that you are posting in a place where only women can see what you write, the whole wide world can see. Look at the top of your screen, its says women's cycling discussion forum. To me, that describes our focus, and not the gender of the poster. I feel really bad about this thread being started however, cuz clearly it is going to make Mr. Silver feel unwelcome no matter what consensus we reach.

Edit: I posted before knowing there was another thread in which this issue had come up. So, I thank Bluetree for bringing it to the attention of the entire group. Indeed, this is an issue that all of us should try to reach conensus on.

[mimitabby]

Hi Bluetree
I have seen 4 different guys that came onto this forum. One posted about his wife's dirty underwear. If I was a moderator, I would have banned him immediately. The other three, Mr Silver included, came on here because of their wives. Nice guys asking advice for a women's specific bike, wanting to surprise her. Mr Silver in particular was a much appreciated poster, because he came to us to let us know how one of the women that we all came to know and love was doing after an accident (and then a second one!)
I think except for the complainer, I am okay with men posting, as long as they remember that this IS a women's forum, and that they are our guests.
that's my opinion anyhoo.
thanks for asking.

[salsabike]

I have no problem with men being on this forum as long as their behavior is fine--which is the way I feel about ALL participants.

[LBTC]

Hey, everyone

You have come to be my friends, my cycling buddies, and I feel like I am a part of a real community here, a community that I have not yet found where I live. The conversations here are insightful, generally supportive, often, but not always, about cycling, and often inspiring. I continually feel grateful to be welcome here.

My DH posted here once - I had posted a concern about his health, and we were overwhelmed by the positive wishes and prayers that were sent his way. He felt privileged to post his thanks to all of you, and his report that the cancer scare, was, in fact, a scare, and all was well. I tell him often about some of the interesting threads, sometimes ask him for technical advice when someone is seeking it, but he doesn't read the forum directly, and doesn't feel it is his place to post here.

That said, he's got as many online friends and community elsewhere as I have here, and he gets what he needs from them.

It seems that this is a bit of a delicate topic for some of us, and I can understand that. Many good points were raised in the other thread, the underlying thought seeming to be that men have lots of other forums, why hang out here?

In general, I agree that if this were to be a truly co-ed forum I may not feel as comfortable here, and may not spend much time here.

But part of me really hates the idea of "allowing" or "not allowing" a whole group of people to be here ever, just because of their gender.

I would hate to think that under new rules, in a similar situation, my DH would have been prevented from posting his thanks, or that another caring DH would have not been able to give us updates on our sister's progress recovering from an injury.

But when speaking of Mr. Silver, I haven't yet read a post that wasn't respectful, interesting, humourous, supportive or helpful....he's done nothing that should single him out to be kept out of the forum.

It is interesting that he is posting so much, but I do understand this. He spends his weeks away from home and he's just embarked on a difficult weight loss journey. He's very focussed on his food intake and exercise output, and is encouraged by the support and acceptance he's found here....it's hard to go hang out with the boys when you're trying to lose weight.

This is an extremely difficult question and I'm not sure how it will be resolved. If the question requires a yes or no answer, without any specifics, I would still have to answer yes....

Good luck to our moderators!!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I feel really bad about this thread being started however, cuz clearly it is going to make Mr. Silver feel unwelcome no matter what consensus we reach.

I suspect Mr. Silver would welcome the idea of us all having an open and civil discussion about it.

Males join the forum from time to time- some of them lurk and read and never let their presence be known, eventually losing interest, I suppose. Others have initially not disclosed their gender, and play lame games on the forum. Yet others post openly as men but have suspect motives and are eventually removed or leave.
And then there are those men who are respectful of women and whose posts either seek help or actually sometimes contribute valuable viewpoints. This category includes guys seeking advice about buying bikes for their wives, etc, it includes a man who tragically lost his fiance in a biking accident, reading our comfort posts. It includes also Mr.Silver who kept us up to date on Silver's recovery from her accident, then stayed on apparently for comaraderie and weight loss support.
Personally, I have no problem with a few "sensitive guys" posting here and there. There is no locked door that I can see on TE.
For good or bad, this fairly lenient policy has functioned to some degree or another in the past. But I do feel that in light of recent unease expressed in other threads, it should be an issue that is openly discussed by us all, and eventually there should be a consensus of what TE members want. My opinion is that there needs to be a set policy about it so that there is no more vagueness. I hope administrators will read everyone's ideas and opinions consider setting a clearer policy that we can all live with.

[snapdragen]

I certainly hope Mr Silver doesn't take this as him not being welcome. He was invited with open arms, and I have no regrets about it.

[bcipam]

I have no problem with men being on this forum as long as their behavior is fine--which is the way I feel about ALL participants.

+100

I had a male friend some time ago post on this forum. He ID'd himself as male and had something to add to the thread he felt was important - he also knew most of the posters.

This is a women's forum and basically it is. If I thought men came here to "play" and pick up ladies then I would say that person should go. I just haven't seen that behavior. Everyone has been polite, respectful and cordial.

Edited to add: I just read the nutrition thread... Mr Silver I would rather PM you (but couldn't) but a message from me... time to time I get myself in quite a pickle with some of the ladies on this board - I can be outspoken and I'm Christian and Conservative, so I can rub folks raw at times. I have learned when engaged so... to just back off and be silent. Men like to debate, women not so much. Just a lesson learned for the future where ever you turn up.

[Pedal Wench]

I also participate on the women's board on bikeforums.net. They debate quarterly (it seems) on whether or not to allow men in. It's a private forum - women are invited in, once it's been established on the public forums that they are, indeed a woman, although it would probably be easy for someone to fake entry. Our forum here is often mentioned, in that this one is open to anyone who wants to drop in. Trying to police it would require more work than Susan O., or Jeff, would probably want to take on. I have a feeling that most men gradually lose interest in our issues. This IS a public forum, and we have to deal with that fact.

[Bad JuJu]

Though it seems that a set policy on this issue would make some of us feel better, I have to agree with Pedal Wench that enforcing such a policy would be next to impossible. After all, we don't really know that everyone who posts here as a woman really is a woman. And what about the occasional transgendered person who might take an interest in the forum?

Mainly, I feel that, with maybe a few exceptions, this is a self-policing forum in that people who aren't really interested in women's cycling issues will eventually get bored and move on. So I think any policy on who can post here neither is needed or would be very effective in the long run.

Just my 2 cents. :)

[SouthernBelle]

Basically, I have no problem with Mr. Silver being here. He's here by invitation and has kept his testerone in check. :rolleyes: But overall, I prefer that this forum stay mostly women.

I think there are reasonable exceptions. For example, if George Hincapie, whose company manufactures cycling clothing, came here with women's clothing questions and decided to stay because he enjoyed the cycling discussions, I'm OK with that.

But if a guy or guys, cyclist or not, comes here with no reasonable connections to the board, I think we would eventually lose what differentiates this board from other cycling boards. There are subjects discussed freely here that would disappear.

[jeannierides]

Well, I have to add my .02 as well. We all appreciated the updates on Silver, and we all did welcome Mr. Silver... to a point... we DO discuss things on this "Women's Forum" that we'd rather not have a male interject... whether it's tampons, whether to wear thongs or how much weight we've gained... sometimes having a man around to put in his two cents... well, sometimes isn't ok. You gals are right that he has been mostly polite and we've encouraged him... and maybe we've misled him into thinking he could be *the* man on the TE board?? I dunno. I somewhat agree with Queen, and mostly agree with Trek on the hijacked thread....
I have very mixed feelings...:o

[Kitsune06]

I've been privy to very differing views on this subject, and while I think all are very well-thought out and can see the reasoning, I must post with my input.

I am uncomfortable with gentlemen on this forum in general. This is a women's space, the "Women's Cycling Discussion Forums" as it were. The way I'm seeing past opinions etc as it were is mentally doing a complete role reversal. If I were a woman on "Team Testosterone- the Men's Cycling Discussion Forum" I can't imagine I'd have much to say, but were I married, I'd possibly be into looking up possible answers for my husband, given possible issues he had- though if he were a member as well, I don't know that I could help much.
I don't know if I could contribute very successfully either.

I don't want this to become a precident. In the past, the loving hubbies of most TE members will occasionally, rarely post, and they're great guys. But they respect the formerly unspoken boundaries we have here. They've rarely tarried long.

All that said,

I cannot knowingly be part of any sort of discrimination. To single out, (sorry) Mr. Silver has been very polite. He's been respectful, and open. Such can *not* be said for many of our previous male visitors. Perhaps this is why he's been so well accepted.

So to sum it up, while I don't want this to be a lasting thing, and wish men would in general respect what had previously been unspoken, I cannot fairly say that he 'should leave'. He will in his due time... and until that happens, he's a good guy and we should treat him as such, however we are unnerved by his presence and what it may mean for the future of TE.

[Brandi]

I do not have a problem with mr Silver! And if he becomes a problem then i am sure it will be taken care of (Vito will pay him a visit:D ). But I don't think to much of it until he becomes rude. But hey we can be just as rude too. Just my opinion.

[HipGnosis6]

Hoo boy... this is bound to get me in trouble, but I just can't keep my mouth shut.

So... the opposing side, while nobody's being horrible and demanding a ban on all men, seems to be saying "we're uncomfortable with a man in our 'locker room'. We deserve our own space."

Just the other day, I was witness to a really shameful scene. I was touring a gym that I was considering joining, and while I was there there was a sudden and very large stir. One of the members had found out that one of the trainers there was *gasp* a lesbian, and the idea that this woman might see her naked in the locker rooms made her uncomfortable. She had never been uncomfortable before, but once she found out that someone there was different from her, she had anxiety and fear.

I'm not sure how your fear and discomfort of men, even when they're showing themselves to be behaving appropriately, is any different. Inappropriate behavior on the forums is just that - inappropriate, no matter who it's coming from, and needs to be dealt with on an issue-by-issue basis and not on one that's discriminatory and originates in fear. Where I don't feel discomfited by Mr. Silver's presence here, I have to tip my hat to Kitsune for being the first to say that banning him simply because he's a man is in fact SEXIST and a form of discrimination.

Part of what I think makes TE different is that we don't discriminate. We all work to make everyone feel welcome, whether they're hardcore roadies or older ladies on their cruisers but right now we're talking about who's NOT welcome! I'm a little shocked by it; we are a fairly diverse group and I've never witnessed anything worse than a couple of snotty comments.

We don't have serious problems with harassment or with men invading our space; we don't hang a sign on our door that says "NO BOYZ", and therefore it's no fun to come bug us. Those few that do show up are met with little interest at best. The day we lay down the law is the day we ask for people to protest our negative and exclusionary behavior.

[Veronica]

Since this a public forum, you never know who could be reading. There could be lots of men out there who are just having a grand ole time over the diva cup or Brazilian waxes. :p AND never say that they are here.

Lots of things posted by WOMEN here make me uncomfortable. It doesn't keep me from posting or reading. It doesn't mean the topics shouldn't be posted. I am pleased with the Ignore Thread feature because I can now ignore those threads more easily. I don't want to ignore the posters, because in other threads I've valued their comments.

Heck, I could be a man for all some of you know. :D

V.

[snapdragen]

Very well said HipGnosis!

[mimitabby]

and now i'll be the devil's advocate. Can you imagine the guys trying to have a "guys only" forum?

[Blueberry]

I say men should be allowed so long as they contribute to the discussion and don't say overtly offensive things.

As V said, this is an open discussion board. A few of you know me in real life - many don't. Sometimes that's best for being able to discuss certain things (sore crotch issues, diva cups), but it is a *public* forum. Men can certainly read it, and never make their presence known.

Some choose to post - like Mr. Silver - and offer insightful and witty comments from sometimes a different perspective. We talk about lots of things other than cycling here (the interviewing thread comes to mind) and in that context, another perspective should be welcome!

I'd be a little suspicious if a male started giving me advice (or posting) to a diva cup thread. Short of that, and so long as their tone is generally in keeping with that of the boards, why not allow them?

[Melody]

I also participate on the women's board on bikeforums.net.

heh. I never knew there was a women's board on bikeforums.net. But then, I don't post there very often. (not that I've been here often lately either though :()

I personally don't have a problem with guys on the forum. To me, it's all about people being polite and respectful to each other, no matter the gender. I just don't think most guys would have much to say on some of the subjects we talk about. ;)

Mel

[Wahine]

Well, I have to agree with Hip. I don't think we can ban men, that's discrimination and this is a public forum. Nor would we be able to police the entry of men into the forum. It's not practical and if we tried and they wanted to be here they could just lurk and pretend to be female. I'd rather have them be open about it so that I can have a sense of who's on the thread. Not that it makes a difference to me, I'll say whatever the heck I want in front of a guy anyway. If it grosses them out and they leave so be it.

If someone behaves inappropriately they need to be removed, regardless of gender.

Besides, we sort of have a built in macho-man barrier - none of those types would be caught dead on a discussion group called Team Estrogen. :p :p With a name like this it's likely that only the nice guys in touch with their feminine side, like Mr. Silver, are likely to enter in.

I didn't say anything here that other's haven't. Just wanted to throw in my vote per say.

[Blueberry]

and now i'll be the devil's advocate. Can you imagine the guys trying to have a "guys only" forum?

There would undoubtedly be threats of a lawsuit...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[salsabike]

Lots of things posted by WOMEN here make me uncomfortable. It doesn't keep me from posting or reading. It doesn't mean the topics shouldn't be posted. I am pleased with the Ignore Thread feature because I can now ignore those threads more easily. I don't want to ignore the posters, because in other threads I've valued their comments.


V.


Exactly.

[Kitsune06]

I think for the most part, there really are a few 'mens only' things... but that's dictated more by most women's distaste for the everpresent testosterone poisoning than any real written rules...

[Triskeliongirl]

One thing this thread did is make me realize is that despite being of the same gender how really different we are from each other. While some women are uncomfortable with men posting here (remember they can always lurk and read, so its posting we are talking about) other women find the sheer thought of engaging in the form of discrimination that was proposed, gender bias, extremely offensive. Someone on the original thread posted about not understanding why straight people might come into a gay bar. Its cuz they have empathy with the people there; they feel more like they belong there than in straight clubs that conform to different cultural biases and stereotypes. Obvisouly some men feel that here. Who are we to judge. Its like judging someone for simply being who they are, whether who they are is gay, straight, transgendered, or whatever. As long as the focus here remains issues of interest to women cyclists, who are we to ban a guy that shares our interests.

[CyclChyk]

Bikeforums, as an example, is predominatly male, yet women post frequently. Even tho there is a "women specific" thread, it does not mean I am allowed to post only in the female one.

The internet is very public. I am sure LOTS of men read our posts of periods and sex and hormones, and a very select few would even want to post comment. I propose that if you have an issue with a man reading something you have posted, then don't post it. Share/discuss it with a girlfrend on the phone.

Segregation. Thats all it is. Miss Black USA - no whites allowed but Miss USA allows blacks........ The Masters Golf Club here in Augusta GA - all male, no women allowed (its been disputed repeatedly).... TE.com; don't post if you don't have boobs (manboobs don't count).][

ARGH I hate this seperation crap - if a guy wants to post here, and keeps his "cool" what harm is there??????

I say let 'em stay. All the estrogen that flows around here I doubt they would stay all that long anyway.

[Popoki_Nui]

Who are we to judge. **** As long as the focus here remains issues of interest to women cyclists, who are we to ban a guy that shares our interests.

I was about to say exactly the same thing. While I would prefer a women-only group, this simply isn't possible on the anonymous WWW. Things I feel uncomfortable discussing in the presence of guys, I simply don't post here. It is a little limiting, for sure. But otherwise, as long as the guys here remain respectful (as I believe Mr Silver has), and the focus is on women's issues WRT cycling, then I'm fine with it.


~Sherry.

[Wahine]

Segregation. Thats all it is. Miss Black USA - no whites allowed but Miss USA allows blacks........ The Masters Golf Club here in Augusta GA - all male, no women allowed (its been disputed repeatedly).... TE.com; don't post if you don't have boobs (manboobs don't count).][


I'm a little uncomfortable now. I don't really have much in the way of boobs. Can I still post? :D :D

Sorry, I thought this thread needed a little comic relief.

[Bikingmomof3]

FWIW-Mr.Silver has done nothing but be a gentleman. :)

Now as to the topic at hand, I *had* (note-past tense :)) mixed feelings, as I think others have already posted about. Basically I worried this wonderful forum would become co-ed.

After reading these very thoughtful post, especially those by Kitsune06 and HipGnosis6, I must concur with what they wrote. And I further believe, as has been previously stated, no one should ever be discriminated against.

[Geonz]

To me it falls under "if you can't enforce it, don't make the rule." Makes it not even an issue. The effort to prevent XYs from participating just isnt' worth it even *if* it were desired.
And if a guy finds the environment worth hanging around in, cool beans. And a guy posts to update us on his wife, THANK YOU.

And... those of us with full blown "earth mother comfort shelves" as they're called on the very moderated bikejournal can average out with anyone feeling they might have insufficient rolling hills ;)

[Wahine]

FWIW-Mr.Silver has done nothing but be a gentleman. :)

Now as to the topic at hand, I *had* (note-past tense :)) mixed feelings, as I think others have already posted about. Basically I worried this wonderful forum would become co-ed.

After reading these very thoughtful post, especially those by Kitsune06 and HipGnosis6, I must concur with what they wrote. And I further believe, as has been previously stated, no one should ever be discriminated against.

This is exactly what I love about this forum. Not only are there many very bright women here but also women of integrity who are willing to say what they stand up and are also willing to say that they have been swayed to a different opinion. I takes guts to put out a post like the one BMO3 did. I have nothing but respect for you.

[mimitabby]

This is exactly what I love about this forum. Not only are there many very bright women here but also women of integrity who are willing to say what they stand up and are also willing to say that they have been swayed to a different opinion. I takes guts to put out a post like the one BMO3 did. I have nothing but respect for you.

ME TOO! what amazing, passionate, compassionate, profound posts!

Mr Silver can't make that go away, nor can trolling men!
We have nothing to fear, my dears, TE is going to stay TE.. Only certain kinds of guys are going to post here and not get chased off. Mr Silver
is one of them. It's because he's sensitive and genuinely interested in conversation with us.
If he was womanizing, challenging or something else we didn't like, we'd fry him in his own juices. Any one of the gals who has posted on this thread could do this VERY well.

You guys are all great, I'm so glad I found this board.

[roguedog]

Hear, hear.. ditto, ditto to what Hip, BMo3 and everyone else who is pro open forum.

Don't like discrimination of any sort..

Also, I enjoy the diversity of viewpoints. Makes life more interesting as long as we are all courteous, open minded and don't take things personally. Hey! I read one of the most informative articles on shaving legs on one of the other bike forums and it was written by a man! Plus I found it amusing and fascinating...

Unfortunately in my experience, being rude, condescending, belittling and all manner of other "making others feel less than" are open to all races, genders, sexual orientations, religions etc. You get the idea.

It is the behavior that we might discourage not a person's physical make up, religious or philosophical viewpoint or whatever.

Well.. maybe people who don't like good food and wine/alcohol.. I could maybe make an exception there ;)

[Irulan]

Hoo boy... this is bound to get me in trouble, but I just can't keep my mouth shut.

So... the opposing side, while nobody's being horrible and demanding a ban on all men, seems to be saying "we're uncomfortable with a man in our 'locker room'. We deserve our own space."

Just the other day, I was witness to a really shameful scene. I was touring a gym that I was considering joining, and while I was there there was a sudden and very large stir. One of the members had found out that one of the trainers there was *gasp* a lesbian, and the idea that this woman might see her naked in the locker rooms made her uncomfortable. She had never been uncomfortable before, but once she found out that someone there was different from her, she had anxiety and fear.

I'm not sure how your fear and discomfort of men, even when they're showing themselves to be behaving appropriately, is any different. Inappropriate behavior on the forums is just that - inappropriate, no matter who it's coming from, and needs to be dealt with on an issue-by-issue basis and not on one that's discriminatory and originates in fear. Where I don't feel discomfited by Mr. Silver's presence here, I have to tip my hat to Kitsune for being the first to say that banning him simply because he's a man is in fact SEXIST and a form of discrimination.

Part of what I think makes TE different is that we don't discriminate. We all work to make everyone feel welcome, whether they're hardcore roadies or older ladies on their cruisers but right now we're talking about who's NOT welcome! I'm a little shocked by it; we are a fairly diverse group and I've never witnessed anything worse than a couple of snotty comments.

We don't have serious problems with harassment or with men invading our space; we don't hang a sign on our door that says "NO BOYZ", and therefore it's no fun to come bug us. Those few that do show up are met with little interest at best. The day we lay down the law is the day we ask for people to protest our negative and exclusionary behavior.

best response.

[Irulan]

I think banning men is as dumb as secret forums.
I think it was said, how are you going to enforce it, what do you do about the lurkers, and how do you know that there aren't men posting anyway that you don't know are men?

If they can't handle the talk ( ie tampons and other women's issues) they can stay away, and if they troll or are rude, let the moderators deal with it, that's what they are there for. Otherwise they should be welcomed, or at least not run off by seperatist attitudes.

my issues with secret forums is that I think they are a bad idea for the following reasons: 1. It shows the moderators can't control their boards and 2. a lot of potential contributing members are lost because they don't know it's there, or they have to prove themselves to become a member.

I like how they do it at MTBR and RBR, women's boards, open to men, heavily moderated, offenders get one warning and then they are banned. There are great guys who contribute to those boards.

back to lurking.

[lauraelmore1033]

I would point out, just for the sake of being that person who points out useless bits of trivia when people are arguing, that estrogen is not the exclusive property of women. Men and women have varying proportions of both estrogen and testosterone (a fact I learned recently when tests revealed that my testosterone levels were higher than they ought to be...). So it is not inappropriate for a man to be a member of Team Estrogen, since he actually does have some...

[lph]

I would point out, just for the sake of being that person who points out useless bits of trivia when people are arguing, that estrogen is not the exclusive property of women. Men and women have varying proportions of both estrogen and testosterone (a fact I learned recently when tests revealed that my testosterone levels were higher than they ought to be...). So it is not inappropriate for a man to be a member of Team Estrogen, since he actually does have some...

aaaah - so good to see someone else being a trivia geek... :cool: (Anyone else fascinated that thing about ring finger length and testosterone?)

My viewpoint has been stated more eloquently by many of you further up but anyhoo: there are many reasons that I was very happy to find this forum. I don't post a great deal, but I like having the chance. There are a few subjects that I'd prefer to discuss only with women, but they're fairly obvious sensitive subjects like saddle sores or other bodily issues and functions. There are other subjects that aren't equally sensitive but where I probably write in a different manner knowing that I'm addressing only women, things that touch onto our position in society or our social role. On this forum I know men could be reading it anyway, but the difference is in who I am "inviting to join the discussion".

That being said about the good points on having a forum for women, I have no problem with Mr. Silver being here, or with him being invited in the first place. He seems like a really sweet guy and a most excellent hubby :-), and he certainly doesn't seem the type to butt in with a male viewpoint on a sensitive issue for women.

I think TE is better for being that much more open, and it doesn't change the fact that TE is a forum for discussing cycling for women - and should stay so.

Lastly - while I respect that some of you are uncomfortable with his presence I find it a little sad that you seem to be questioning his motives for being here, or for posting x amount. I assume he just enjoys the company, like the rest of us, and from what I've seen he has been nothing but supportive and enthusiastic. "He ain't bad just cos he's a guy" ;)

[jeannierides]

Hoo boy... this is bound to get me in trouble, but I just can't keep my mouth shut.

So... the opposing side, while nobody's being horrible and demanding a ban on all men, seems to be saying "we're uncomfortable with a man in our 'locker room'. We deserve our own space."

Just the other day, I was witness to a really shameful scene. I was touring a gym that I was considering joining, and while I was there there was a sudden and very large stir. One of the members had found out that one of the trainers there was *gasp* a lesbian, and the idea that this woman might see her naked in the locker rooms made her uncomfortable. She had never been uncomfortable before, but once she found out that someone there was different from her, she had anxiety and fear.

I'm not sure how your fear and discomfort of men, even when they're showing themselves to be behaving appropriately, is any different. Inappropriate behavior on the forums is just that - inappropriate, no matter who it's coming from, and needs to be dealt with on an issue-by-issue basis and not on one that's discriminatory and originates in fear. Where I don't feel discomfited by Mr. Silver's presence here, I have to tip my hat to Kitsune for being the first to say that banning him simply because he's a man is in fact SEXIST and a form of discrimination.

Part of what I think makes TE different is that we don't discriminate. We all work to make everyone feel welcome, whether they're hardcore roadies or older ladies on their cruisers but right now we're talking about who's NOT welcome! I'm a little shocked by it; we are a fairly diverse group and I've never witnessed anything worse than a couple of snotty comments.

We don't have serious problems with harassment or with men invading our space; we don't hang a sign on our door that says "NO BOYZ", and therefore it's no fun to come bug us. Those few that do show up are met with little interest at best. The day we lay down the law is the day we ask for people to protest our negative and exclusionary behavior.


<<<what she said.

I couldn't (didn't) say it better...:o

[emily_in_nc]

Just chiming in here to agree with those who have argued for lack of discrimination on TE. I enjoy Mr. Silver's posts, and I don't think his gender should be cause for banning him (or other respectful men who might come here in the future) from the forum. I do enjoy the mostly female group here, but Mr. Silver does not seem interested in discussions of female anatomy, diva cup or the like. He's discussing weight loss and posting supportive comments on some of the off-topic threads. I just don't see the harm in it. I'd like to think of us as an inclusive community, not exclusive. We don't discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation here, why gender? It's a bit of a slippery slope to me....

Emily

[Thorn]

Like I can say it any better than Hip & Co, but, just to add 2cents to a million dollar pot...

Forums have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate. While this forum may be predominately women, look at the breadth of backgrounds. We have the full political spectrum, we're international, we have stay at home moms, doctors, nurses, engineers, and research scientists, gay, straight, single, married, divorced, rich, poor...if there is a segment of society, we've probably got it.

It is that diversity that gives this board its wonderful personality. If a person drops by, sees that personality and wants to play, who are you to turn them away just because they're male? Perhaps, just perhaps, what makes this forum differernt from others is that wonderful mix of world society that we have. Diversity is a good thing.

As others have said, the personality of the forum will self regulate. If anyone (even cranky old me) falls too far from the personality, the forum will self-regulate.



Disclaimer: I have spent most of my working life in a male dominated field. Just because I may have been discriminated for being female does not mean I have the right to discriminate against someone for being male. Needless to say, I don't believe gender is a reason to moderate a person off this or any other forum. And, gee, how can anyone take offense at Mr. Silver? He's bared his soul and has us all at least thinking about eating better.

[Veronica]

And, gee, how can anyone take offense at Mr. Silver? He's bared his soul and has us all at least thinking about eating better.

I'm NOT thinking about eating better. I want another cookie! :p

V.

[Trek420]

Like I can say it any better than Hip & Co, but, just to add 2cents to a million dollar pot...

Forums have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate. While this forum may be predominately women, look at the breadth of backgrounds. We have the full political spectrum, we're international, we have stay at home moms, doctors, nurses, engineers, and research scientists, gay, straight, single, married, divorced, rich, poor...if there is a segment of society, we've probably got it.

It is that diversity that gives this board its wonderful personality.

No you did say it better. :D :D

"Forums have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate...."

I'm just asking is all....please don't kill the messenger...just a question:

In the top left hand corner of your screen ladies and gentlemen you see "women's cycling discussion forums".

We are it, but we don't own it.

Two keystrokes and we're a "cycling forum".

I'm just asking is all, what do you think of that? :cool: :rolleyes:

Would we still "have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate." as Thorn so well said.

I hope so. I was after all the 2nd person on the board to welcome Mr. Silver.

[doc]

Nothing new here, just my 'vote'

Discrimination s*cks. I won't be party to it.

Anyone of any gender should, and hoepfully will, be banned for abusive or seriously inappropriate comments (NOT just varying opinions). All other comments and the people who make them are welcome.

Anyone reading or joining this forum knows it is slanted for women and issues that relate specifically to them. If you have a useful, respectful, thoughtful, funny,(......) comment, by all means throw it in whoever you are.

[Duck on Wheels]

I'm still kinda on the fence on this one, and therefore glad to see that discussions are ongoing and (not least!) amicable. Seems like we all acknowledge one anothers points of view, which feels right to me. It's part of what TE, at its best, has felt like all along.

So here's my acknowledgement to both sides:

On the one hand -- I've experienced TE as a place I expected to feel at home from the get go because it was a women's cycling forum. That, and the TE rules of behaviour (not sure whether these are published anywhere, but sister Trek420 explained them to me as motivation to join) such as acceptance for (especially women) cyclists at all levels, supportive and informative response to whatever questions one has -- no question to embarrassing or too stupid or too naive or ... whatever. Also that we tiptoe around divisive issues, but without totally hiding them, just trying not to insult one another yet recognizing our differences on all kinds of levels. And I must say, the fact that it's a women's forum goes some ways to making those rules more credible, and possibly easier to "police" ...? Because, whatever I may think of a strict biological sexual divide (see below), I do recognize that there tends to be a cultural one.

On the other hand -- Most of the few men who've participated openly and actively for any length of time (and certainly Mr. Silver and my cousin Maury) have found themselves right at home abiding by those rules. In fact, I can readily see where Mr. Silver would be attracted to our forum, given his cycling goals. C'mon! We've had our laughs about some of those testosterone-enriched fora where every other guy is posting about how embarrassing it is to be passed by a woman cyclist! How supportive would such a place be to a guy who's training to lose weight and keep up with his cycling wife? Furthermore, recognizing and accepting all other differences but drawing the line according to a more or less arbitrary biological definition (I won't go into details, but in my line of research we question the reality of a binary division into two mutually exclusive sexes) ... well, isn't that a bit inconsistent?

So how can we balance between these two sides of the fence? Could we continue to call ourselves a women's cycling forum, but accept men on an invitation only basis? And should we maybe have a set of rules, formulated politely and in positive terms ("On TE we always ..." rather than "On TE we do not ...")? That way we can still "out" the occasional "troll". We're not as likely to get a rush of men applicants, either as positive seekers or as web "pirates" out to break into any place that tries to exclude them. We can also admonish, or worst case exclude, anybody who behaves rudely.

Or then again ... maybe we just let this discussion take its course and then, wherever we land, try to go on without making any changes. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Crankin]

I am uncomfortable with the thought that someone would be uncomfortable with a respectful male posting here! Yes, there are some "private" topics discussed here, but frankly, anyone can see them. They might not post in reply, but they could be reading everything. There have been a few things that I wouldn't post about, because I don't want someone googling my name and seeing my discussion of an "intimate" problem. I don't mind if others discuss whatever, but you never know who is reading the boards.
My husband is a lot like Mr. Silver. The thought that some would want to ban him is a little dismaying. He doesn't want to sit around and talk about Diva cups, etc, but he might have something interesting to say about cycling, weight loss, etc. I know he went to the saddle thread when I was having all of my issues this summer.
Let's keep this group diverse and inclusionary (is that a word?). Unless someone of either gender is being inappropriate, they should be able to post here.

[LBTC]

(Anyone else fascinated that thing about ring finger length and testosterone?)

Trivia geek here: tell me what this thing with the ring finger length?

~T~

[Trek420]

Dang, the link doesn't work. Here's the story.


Finger length linked to female sporting potential Wed Sep 27, 8:35 PM ET


LONDON (Reuters) - The length of a girl's ring finger could be an indicator of her future sporting potential, researchers at King's College London said on Thursday.



In the largest study of its kind, hand measurements of 607 female twins aged 25-79 from the UK were compared with the women's lifetime sporting achievements.

The findings, published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, found that women with ring fingers longer than their index fingers had performed better at running and associated running sports such as soccer and tennis.

In women the ring finger is commonly shorter or the same length as the index finger, while in men the ring finger is generally longer.

The report said detection of sporting potential by examining the ratio between the index and ring fingers "could help identify talented individuals at a pre-competitive stage."

The reasons for the findings were unclear, said one of the report's authors, Professor Tim Spector from the Twins Research Unit at King's College, who said he was originally sceptical about the link to sporting ability.

"Previous studies have suggested the change in finger length was due to changes in testosterone levels in the womb", he said.

But he said the unit had found in a separate study of twins that finger length was largely inherited, possibly explaining why sporting parents often have sporting children.

"We found that finger length was 70 percent heritable with little influence of the womb environment," he said.

"This suggests that genes are the main factor and that finger length is a marker of your genes."

He said no specific candidate genes had been identified for the link and that multiple genes were probably responsible.

Previous studies looking at the link between finger length and sporting ability have mainly focussed on men.

A study published in 2001 of 304 English professional soccer players found they had a significantly larger ring-to-index-finger ratio than a control group of 533 other men.

Other studies in men have shown the ratio of the ring finger to the index finger can be associated with varied traits such as sexuality, musical ability and vulnerability to certain diseases.

__________________

[SouthernBelle]

I can't help but throw this in after the mentions of discrimination and lawsuits. Discrimination is not per se illegal. Distasteful maybe. It isn't illegal to have men's clubs or women's clubs.

Augusta National (as it was previously mentioned) is a men's club. Not illegal.

I think a better analogy is that of a locker room.

[Pax]

Fascinating how this has evolved into a discussion about "banning" men from the forum. I have no desire to see anyone banned (not a big fan of censorship), I do have a desire to see the comfortable feel of TE remain.

While many of you see his posts as respectful and interesting, I have to say the first and only contact I had with him was a post where he referenced his need for a battle-cry (per his post...a testosterone thing). That is the post where I first questioned his desire to participate here. My initial questions were posted specifically to Mr. Silver asking him why he was choosing to post here. I was quite puzzled about why any man would choose to hang out here as a regular member, rather than doing the drive by posting like many of the men (husbands, SO's, etc) do on TE.

[Duck on Wheels]

In women the ring finger is commonly shorter or the same length as the index finger, while in men the ring finger is generally longer.

Which hand? On my left they're the same length, on my right the ring finger is longer (as measured against a ruler between the respective fingers and the middle finger -- is that the method?).

[rocknrollgirl]

Ok...just observations....

I have read this entire thread, and the original thread, and I have to agree with Queen, and her attempt to bring us back to her original idea, which was one of being puzzled.

I too am puzzled...not offended, or put out in any way...just puzzled.

I belong to several boards, all of which are co-ed...I have no problem with that at all, I don't want to see any discriminated against ever.

However, that being said, the original issue was just confusion, and I think that this discussion has moved away from that idea.


Ruth

[East Hill]

Not only do we come here as an escape from too much testosterone, but I would imagine some men may do so as well.

As long as there is respect for issues which only women face (pregnancy, PMS, saddles fitting in the wrong places for women) I don't see why men should not participate.

If the men who do sign up cause problems, I would imagine that the TOS for the forum would take care of that.

I am certain that men lurk here. But they probably get bored fairly quickly.

East Hill

[margo49]

I was surprised to say the least when Mr Silver started posting about topics other than Silver's accident and recovery.
I am even more surprised at his posting on this topic and explaining himself. In my (misspent??) youth a Real (New) Man would not be caught dead in Women's Space. He would be too respectful of it. (And if he was another sort of man -sexist,regular or a parasitic liberal; he *would* be caught dead you can bet on it)
Puzzlement, as Queen put it.
That said... I spent a while one evening looking at some military websites prior to my son's enlistment. I arrived by a chance click and lurked about on a Very Strange Forum for Gung-ho Special Forces. It piqued my curiosity I admit but after 20 min I had had enough. So I imagine men who get to TE would do the same - unless they are posting about a specific TE member who has crashed or is ill or needs our input in whatever form (prayer, thoughts, advice, knowledge or equipment) in an emergency.

I love the atmosphere here, and the wide variety of women , the humour and the incredible support and advice offered to one another .(I think back to my War Reports of the summer) .

I personally have a very detailed conception of separatism and modesty (which I have spent the last 25 years refining I might add!) and the all-women /only women nature of TE suits me.

$0.02

Added with this edit: I see Mr Silver has 65 posts and a "rate" of 4 per day. Whaaat? If my SO was posting this much on TE I would sure have a few questions, accompanied by much hand gesturing. I like my privacy and respect yours-all's too.

[lph]

The findings, published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, found that women with ring fingers longer than their index fingers had performed better at running and associated running sports such as soccer and tennis.

In women the ring finger is commonly shorter or the same length as the index finger, while in men the ring finger is generally longer.


On both hands my ring finger is a full cm longer than my index finger.

I'm just waiting for my running performance to kick in :p

So far it just correlates with some less-than-feminine behaviour... ;)

[DebW]

Dang, the link doesn't work. Here's the story.


Finger length linked to female sporting potential Wed Sep 27, 8:35 PM ET


LONDON (Reuters) - The length of a girl's ring finger could be an indicator of her future sporting potential, researchers at King's College London said on Thursday.


Note that the finger length thing (ring longer than index) is only on the right hand (at least it is on me). And it has been linked to a whole host of things (handedness, autism, heart disease, sexual orientation) that may correlate with testosterone exposure in utero. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio#Explanation_of_the_digit_ratio_effect

However, to be scientific about it, the bell curves for any traits you can link to finger length overlap so much that it means obsolutely nothing about a particular individual.

[lph]

However, to be scientific about it, the bell curves for any traits you can link to finger length overlap so much that it means obsolutely nothing about a particular individual.

Well, yeah, but it's still a fun thing to bring up over a beer ;)

[kelownagirl]

Wow, maybe I AM athletic! Both ring fingers are longer. My whole life, I have never considered myself to be athletic in any way, so this biking thing has really surprised me. I need to stop saying I am no good at sports. :)

[kelownagirl]

However, to be scientific about it, the bell curves for any traits you can link to finger length overlap so much that it means obsolutely nothing about a particular individual.

Oh rats, just when I was getting excited about it. Ah well...

[SouthernBelle]

My ring finger is a good cm shorter on both hands. I guess I'm just doomed to be a klutz.

[Blueberry]

I can't help but throw this in after the mentions of discrimination and lawsuits. Discrimination is not per se illegal. Distasteful maybe. It isn't illegal to have men's clubs or women's clubs.


Easy there - it was a joke (as evidenced by the many smilies!!!)

However, it is a valid observation that if women were excluded under questionable circumstances it's entirely possible that someone would raise the issue. We're a litigious society. It's why I have a job.

And yes, discrimination *is* per se illegal in many contexts (e.g. sorry, we're not going to hire you because you're female). This, however, does not apply to message boards...

*going back to lurkdom now....*

[spokewench]

I really have no problem with men on this forum if they are respectful to the obvious flavor of this forum. This is a welcoming, non-judgmental forum and that is the way it should stay. There are some forums out there that we all are aware of that are not friendly even to other males. The flavor of those forums is sarcastic, vicious and uncaring of others feelings. I do not want to see this happen to TE, but I do not believe we should bar males who want that same kind of feeling in a forum.

I compare this with my ladies rides. In my small town, there are very few group rides for men or ladies that are not hammerfests. It is a small town where the core group of racers/riders are a young crowd. We are a university town. I lead women's rides, but I have never barred men if they would like to come along. If they are good riders, I expect them to be respectful and help teach; if they are just looking for a ride where they will not be dropped and can learn, I see no reason why they can't join. I always laughingly say at the beginning of a ride to a new male rider that I don't know "if you leave your testosterone at home, you are welcome" They seem to get the idea and I have never had a problem.

[Brandi]

I think at this point Mr Silver might be scared away from us. I like him and don't mind if he stays. He seems to know where not to go etc...

[Brandi]

Maybe we should do a vote? we could post it and run it for a week?

[mimitabby]

I think at this point Mr Silver might be scared away from us. I like him and don't mind if he stays. He seems to know where not to go etc...

I don't think he's been scared off. He reminds me of a cat. Smart, sensitive and alert. :D He's probably treading lightly on his paw pads. and he should be.

[Tuckervill]

On both hands my ring finger is a full cm longer than my index finger.

I'm just waiting for my running performance to kick in

Me too! I hated running in the army and I hate it now.

But I am seriously considering roller derby for an outlet of my suppressed aggressive/competitive energies. ;)

This is the first time I've posted in this thread, so I'll chime in on the topic.

I don't care who posts, because I have no control over it whatsoever. All I have control over is what I read. If someone who posts really gets on my nerves, I can always use the ignore feature. I have used it liberally in other forums, but not this one.

There is something different about this forum than other women-only forums. I think it's the type of woman who is attracted to this type of sport (prolly any sport) that makes a difference. They may be smarter, more mature, or less inclined to a poor-me attitude. I don't know what it is. However, I've never seen a post by someone here who was clinically depressed and neglecting her children; or someone who was in an abusive relationship and will not take the steps to get help often offered, yet posts for years and years with the same problems. Have you ever noticed that type of poster in other forums? You might know someone like that in real life.

Not here. Riding a bike is an action-oriented activity. That's what makes the forum special, I think. You can't go out and ride your bike and then live a lifestyle of learned helplessness.

So, the place is special, full of empowered people. I can't really blame anyone for wanting to be here! I also understand not being comfortable with knowing a man is reading and might respond. But that's a risk you take anyway. Might as well put myself out there as much as I am comfortable, and concentrate on things I CAN control.

Karen, trying to decide which alter-ego will take over when she straps her skates on...

[Bruno28]

I have to say the first and only contact I had with him was a post where he referenced his need for a battle-cry (per his post...a testosterone thing).

That made me uneasy as well.




I think a better analogy is that of a locker room.

Exactly.

I am anti-discrimination also, but I personally wouldn't hang out here if it was co-ed because it would be a different kind of thing.

[DebW]

Maybe we should do a vote? we could post it and run it for a week?

I don't think there is any point in a vote, since any decisions we make would not be enforceable. The civil discussion on this thread is now our public record, and any men who come to the forum can read it and heed it and learn to tread lightly in certain areas.

[Veronica]

We really can't vote him off the island. :D This being a public forum and all.

Every new person changes the flavor of the forum slightly.

If Nanci hadn't joined we'd never know anything about snakes.

If Trekhawk hadn't joined, I'd have one less definition of mate.

If SK and jobob hadn't joined, there would be no Amici Veloci.

I too have wondered why Mr. Silver wanted to hang around. But it's probably the same reason anyone else hangs around. We enjoy the camaraderie and the support. Where else could I just blurt out that I am absolutely pissed that the thieves took our spare change container. How lame is that?

Anyway...I wish it would warm up to at least 40 F. This cold is not good for my knees. Yeah, that's why I'm not riding in the cold. :D It really has nothing to do with being a wuss.

V.

[Pedal Wench]

I lead women's rides, but I have never barred men if they would like to come along. If they are good riders, I expect them to be respectful and help teach; if they are just looking for a ride where they will not be dropped and can learn, I see no reason why they can't join. I always laughingly say at the beginning of a ride to a new male rider that I don't know "if you leave your testosterone at home, you are welcome" They seem to get the idea and I have never had a problem.

My (women's) bike club has an interesting policy. On our summer Wednesday night ride, it's strictly women. We've been known to ask guys who just happen to find us on the road and want to tag along to do so from a distance. During the winter, we have a Wednesday night ride that's co-ed, but men aren't allowed up front - they can't set the pace. And a few of the really kind sweeties ride sweep and keep the slowest rider (usually me!) company!

[Brandi]

We really can't vote him off the island. :D This being a public forum and all.

Every new person changes the flavor of the forum slightly.

If Nanci hadn't joined we'd never know anything about snakes.

If Trekhawk hadn't joined, I'd have one less definition of mate.

If SK and jobob hadn't joined, there would be no Amici Veloci.

I too have wondered why Mr. Silver wanted to hang around. But it's probably the same reason anyone else hangs around. We enjoy the camaraderie and the support. Where else could I just blurt out that I am absolutely pissed that the thieves took our spare change container. How lame is that?

Anyway...I wish it would warm up to at least 40 F. This cold is not good for my knees. Yeah, that's why I'm not riding in the cold. :D It really has nothing to do with being a wuss.

V.
You are no wuss! There are no wusses here!

[Bluetree]

Thank you everyone for being so frank (and civil!) with your comments.

My personal opinion comes from a childhood dealing with exclusion. As the only non-affluent, non-white child in my neighborhood, I felt the sting of being judged for reasons beyond my control. And to quote a great man on this special day, I am once again reminded how important it is to judge someone "by the content of their character."

This forum is so successful because it brings together something we all have in common: the love of cycling and community. It heartens me to think that although we may be of differing opinions and backgrounds, we can discuss this in a matter that may not be possible in other places.

That a man can find this place comforting is not puzzling to me in the least. In fact, if a man can put away his machismo and communicate with women in a platonic and supportive way, I am even more gratified. It gives me hope for the future.

But I doubt that many men will flock here and make this a co-ed forum. As someone mentioend before, it IS called Team Estrogen. I feel Mr Silver (or any man/woman/undecided who behaves themselves) can only enrich the conversation and growth of fellow members.

[SouthernBelle]

Easy there - it was a joke (as evidenced by the many smilies!!!)

However, it is a valid observation that if women were excluded under questionable circumstances it's entirely possible that someone would raise the issue. We're a litigious society. It's why I have a job.

And yes, discrimination *is* per se illegal in many contexts (e.g. sorry, we're not going to hire you because you're female). This, however, does not apply to message boards...

*going back to lurkdom now....*

It's why I have my own practice. :)

[snapdragen]

Hmm. I thought Mr Silver's battle cry and comments about it being testosterone fueled was funny. Especially since I've been known to howl with the best of them.......:p

[Bluetree]

The length of a girl's ring finger could be an indicator of her future sporting potential, researchers at King's College London said on Thursday.

My middle finger is longer than my ring finger. I doubt it's genetic or even a measure of my potential... I think it just got that way by practice!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

[Bruno28]

Hmm. I thought Mr Silver's battle cry and comments about it being testosterone fueled was funny. Especially since I've been known to howl with the best of them.......:p

Yeah - but the testosterone quip was just a way of ingratiating himself. See - it worked ;)

And you howl so much more sweetly Snap.

I was just saying what I felt.

[Duck on Wheels]

Hmm. I thought Mr Silver's battle cry and comments about it being testosterone fueled was funny. Especially since I've been known to howl with the best of them.......:p

I thought he was being (self-)ironic. Very appropriate, except that irony is always tough to communicate in writing, even with smileys.

Oh, and there is the "cowabunga!" cry from "Fried Green Tomatoes ..."

[Kitsune06]

Trivia geek here: tell me what this thing with the ring finger length?

~T~

....is that what it is? Oh. And here I was all hung up on the apparently antiquated definition of the word 'sporting' :D ;)

My ring finger is *significantly* longer than my index... but I have yet to see any special benefit... At least as far as biking goes... :rolleyes:

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Hmm. I thought Mr Silver's battle cry and comments about it being testosterone fueled was funny. Especially since I've been known to howl with the best of them.......:p

For the record, I thought his "battle cry" comment was funny too. Just shows how we women are all varied too in our thoughts and perceptions. I love the diversity of TE.

[mimitabby]

My middle finger is longer than my ring finger. I doubt it's genetic or even a measure of my potential... I think it just got that way by practice!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

no, no Blue,
the comparison is between the index and the ring finger, and for some reason,
even if you're lefty, only the right hand counts.

I have long ring fingers and so does DH and my two sons. One day a few months ago, I had everyone in the bike club (at a dinner) show me their fingers. It was about 50-50 and some of the little ring fingers belonged to racers. so go figure.

[Kitsune06]

Wait, do we measure from the top or from the bottom? Er, I mean back of the hand or palm? Palmwise, I think my index looks longer...

Bluetree, I agree.... Wishful thinking and selective adaptation. ;)

[Deanna]

Just my .02. This is a public forum and therefore I believe we have to allow men. Personally, I do not have a problem with it as the facilities exist to have a member banned if they are offensive, and we are strong enough (both with our personality and in numbers) to make them feel more uncomfortable then they could possibly make us.

This thread reminds me of a case that's been in my local news. A man has successfully sued a womans only gym to allow him membership. He won, the gym has now had to close because they could not afford to build a locker room and shower facilities for him, or to pay the daily fines levied for each day they did not provide these facilities. I'm a little less in agreement with this judgment as I think having to pay for membership, makes it more of a "private" business than a public entity. However, the case was argued that private mens clubs were banned in the interest of equality and that women have to "play fair" now that the tables are turned.

[Bikingmomof3]

Just checked my identical twins hands...index and ring finger are the same length on both hands. DH points out his are not. ;) My index finger is longer on both hands. :eek: What the heck does that mean? :rolleyes:

[mimitabby]

Just checked my identical twins hands...index and ring finger are the same length on both hands. DH points out his are not. ;) My index finger is longer on both hands. :eek: What the heck does that mean? :rolleyes:
YOU HAVE A TWIN?????

So which one of you is more competitive?

[Kitsune06]

Does it matter? We already know Jen's the evil one... ;)

ohhhhh
I kid 'cuz I love
my sister.
ARRR!!! Nooo don't chase me!!! AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!~
.....


....

[salsabike]

Here, amuse yourselves with the whole finger measurement thing and more:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml

[Pedal Wench]

The whole debate is moot, because there is no way to police it. However, our kind and generous sponsors and hosts could easily open the forum only to TE customers. (In which case, I would have a gold-plated lifetime membership!) That might be a way of limiting access, but it's not very appealing. I think most of us like the welcoming feel of this group. Inclusionary, not exclusionary...

[salsabike]

The whole debate is moot, because there is no way to police it. However, our kind and generous sponsors and hosts could easily open the forum only to TE customers. (In which case, I would have a gold-plated lifetime membership!) That might be a way of limiting access, but it's not very appealing. I think most of us like the welcoming feel of this group. Inclusionary, not exclusionary...

Right.

[mimitabby]

There have been the occasional male posters who I am not certain understood what team ESTROGEN meant. :D :cool:

[Eden]

I participate both here and in co-ed forums. Personally I like posting and reading here more because there is a greater range of topics discussed and the discussions tend to be more thought out and civil than because it is exclusively women. Granted these things happen likely because it is a women's forum, but thoughtfullness and civility are not mutually exclusive with being a man. I can see no reason to discriminate against anyone and I can understand if a man might like this forum for the same reasons I do. (speaking as a woman married to a man who feels he doesn't understand other men all that well and what's all that macho bs about anyway...but he's not a forum reader kind of guy so I don't think you'll ever hear from him)

Plus, like others said this is a public forum - anyone who wants to can get on and read your posts, so sorry to break any illusions, but don't share things you want to keep private... If it would embarass you to discuss diva cups or hormones in a crowded noisy restaurant, well this is pretty much the same atmosphere, anyone can "overhear" you.

[Kitsune06]

Civil, yes, but I'd like to point out that although we have the term "testosterone poisoning" for the BJ/MTBR forums' knack for "You suck because of a,b,c...." and "My bike has more bling because a,b,c..." we manage to have our own ridiculous cattiness and metaphorical "My <X> is bigger/better/lighter/more expensive than yours" going on here. No real term for it, certainly not 'estrogen poisoning'... probably not even insecurity. Just stupid cattiness.

Men did not bring that here. It's our own competitive nature. Yes it runs rampant on those other forums to a much greater degree, but pressed, I betcha I could come up with several threads who have managed great wonders of b*tchiness.

I just LOVE the ones where newbies will come on and say "I'm just starting biking, but only want to spend $3k on a bike..."
...wtf? If you're just starting, entry level is fine. Better than fine. I'd encourage it. I wouldn't say anyone would be wasting their money. Why? Entry level is heavier. It does not glide like a little nimble gazelle. That's good. Why? Because then you have to work that much harder as you start out. It strengthens you while you still have that cute novice drive.
Hate to break it to anyone, too, but unless you're racing etc, it's worthless shave grams here and there and everywhere at the expense of hundreds.
You know that chick in downtown Portland wearing striped knee socks and an Invader Zim messenger bag on the rusty, hot pink singlespeed nishiki? She'll blow your doors in. Hardcore. Why? She does it every freakin' day. She's no weight weenie. She's not a wooly nut. She just does what she does every day, and then hangs with her friends for a beer and a pizza.

Another thing, You list to me the real racers on this forum, and guaranteed, you look at what they're saying, where they're posting, they are generally not the ones talking smack about who's what is lighter, whether or not their Underarmor is better than your whatever, or if entry level is a waste of time.

We cannot ban men on the basis of 'testosterone poisoning' on coed forums because we bring it right here, ladies. Right here in our own back yard.

[Bikingmomof3]

YOU HAVE A TWIN?????

So which one of you is more competitive?

I am not a twin. I have identical twin boys. :) Sorry for the confusion.

[mimitabby]

I am not a twin. I have identical twin boys. :) Sorry for the confusion.
OH DUH!!!

[Bikingmomof3]

OH DUH!!!

Could you imagine two of me? Scary thought! :p

[Eden]

Whoa Kit!
I'm not saying there is never any heated discussion or down right silly bickering here and/or that there is never anything useful said on the co-ed board I post to either - otherwise I'd quit visiting there. There's just significantly less of it here. The trend really is for less of that behavior and more really trying to answer questions and be supportive. The other forum has a lot more members too so there is a lot more repetition of people asking the same questions over and over again - and that cannot be blamed on the gender of the posters.

btw - what I really don't miss that doesn't go on here much if at all is the my favorite pro rider is better than your favorite pro rider - that's only because your favorite rider dopes -yours does too - well you suck- no you suck blah de blah de blah de that gets discussed a lot on the other forum.

[mimitabby]

btw - what I really don't miss that doesn't go on here much if at all is the my favorite pro rider is better than your favorite pro rider - that's only because your favorite rider dopes -yours does too - well you suck- no you suck blah de blah de blah de that gets discussed a lot on the other forum.

What we are spared of here is: "I rode such and such in 2 hours" to get a response of; "well, I did it in 55 minutes, with only 1 pedal!"
the constant testosterone challenge. Here, you might not be the best rider
but the better (?) riders aren't going to grind you into the dirt for sharing your achievements.

[Veronica]

Of course there is heated discussion. There are some things people are quite passionate about. I guess I've missed something because I haven't seen a lot of cattiness. I've seen questioning some one's opinion and asking for evidence to support their opinion. But not a lot of cattiness. I have not seen people putting down what others are riding. But I don't read every thread either. It may be there, but it's not rampant.

If we all agreed on every little thing, what would be the point of a forum?

We'd all be riding Rivendells and sitting on Brooks saddles because naturally that's the right thing. Only black leather bar tape is allowed.

Everyone would drink Sustain mixed with gatorade, the green flavor. Only orange and red sports beans would be allowed. Red Bull not any other energy drink and nothing with raisins. Everyone would be training to do double centuries, none of this triathlon stuff.

Oh and only friction shifters, the only carbon allowed is your brake levers and only eggbeaters for pedals. Everyone must wear ruby slippers and red and orange are the only bike colors allowed.

Every one's favorite pro rider is Danilo Diluca because his name is cool to say over and over in your head as you climb up a big freakin' mountain.

So, you're all on board right?!


V.

Please feel free to debate with me on any of those issues. But don't expect to change my mind. :D

[Bluetree]

Every one's favorite pro rider is Danilo Diluca because his name is cool to say over and over in your head as you climb up a big freakin' mountain.


Ahem. Jaan Kirsipuu.

[Eden]

Danilo Diluca, Daanilo Diluca, Danilo Diluuuca, Danilo Diiiluca

but don't expect me to give up my carbon or drink Red Bull ;)

[Veronica]

Ahem. Jaan Kirsipuu.

His last name is too sissy. Plus it makes me think of poo. :p

Oh and I forgot... you all must eat cookies!

V.

[Trekhawk]

Of course there is heated discussion. There are some things people are quite passionate about. I guess I've missed something because I haven't seen a lot of cattiness. I've seen questioning some one's opinion and asking for evidence to support their opinion. But not a lot of cattiness. I have not seen people putting down what others are riding. But I don't read every thread either. It may be there, but it's not rampant.

If we all agreed on every little thing, what would be the point of a forum?

We'd all be riding Rivendells and sitting on Brooks saddles because naturally that's the right thing. Only black leather bar tape is allowed.

Everyone would drink Sustain mixed with gatorade, the green flavor. Only orange and red sports beans would be allowed. Red Bull not any other energy drink and nothing with raisins. Everyone would be training to do double centuries, none of this triathlon stuff.

Oh and only friction shifters, the only carbon allowed is your brake levers and only eggbeaters for pedals. Everyone must wear ruby slippers and red and orange are the only bike colors allowed.

Every one's favorite pro rider is Danilo Diluca because his name is cool to say over and over in your head as you climb up a big freakin' mountain.

So, you're all on board right?!


V.

Please feel free to debate with me on any of those issues. But don't expect to change my mind. :D

LOL - I love you V!!!

This made me think of Jo and I crusing along yesterday. Two very different bikes but I dont think Jo and I have ever discussed bike choices....hmm might be because we are to busy talking beer and pizza oh and what rides to do next.:D

[mimitabby]

We'd all be sitting on Brooks saddles because naturally that's the right thing.

red and orange are the only bike colors allowed.

Every one's favorite pro rider is Danilo Diluca because his name is cool to say over and over in your head as you climb up a big freakin' mountain.

So, you're all on board right?!


V.


yes, I am! :D :D Danilo Diluca is kind of a nice name, yeah.

[Veronica]

LOL - I love you V!!!

This made me think of Jo and I crusing along yesterday. Two very different bikes but I dont think Jo and I have ever discussed bike choices....hmm might be because we are to busy talking beer and pizza oh and what rides to do next.:D

I thought it was 'cuz you were too busy dissin' MP. :p

V.

[Aggie_Ama]

Oh and I forgot... you all must eat cookies!

V.

Well this is one bandwagon I can jump on! :D

[SouthernBelle]

As long as the cookies have some chocolate. Some peanut butter would be good too.

[Velobambina]

Thor Hushovd. Enuf said!! Danilo? Sounds like a brand of yogurt? ;)

[Bluetree]

Thor Hushovd. Enuf said!! Danilo? Sounds like a brand of yogurt? ;)

Oh sure... throw in that "God of Thunder" cr*p... :rolleyes:

[Veronica]

I think I like the alliteration.

Jens Voigt - the former East German.

How old do you suppose he was when the wall came down?

V.

[maillotpois]

I think I like the alliteration.

Jens Voight - the former East German.

How old do you suppose he was when the wall came down?

V.

He's my personal favorite. And no, you're not going to trick me into doing math! :p

[Bluetree]

Voight's a honey. Oooh... I can't believe I said that.

I think he's one of the old school goombahs, like Vino, Ullrich, Ekimov...

[Veronica]

Okay - he was born in '71. He's older than I thought.

V.

[maillotpois]

Yeah, he's almost our age.... :rolleyes:

[colby]

Interesting question. I've seen this before in women in technology spaces. I am a member of one mailing list/chat community in particular that has faced many of these issues.

As the community was developed, it turned out it became a positive environment for beginners, advanced users, technophobes, and technophiles alike. Somewhere along the line, the community gained a reputation for positive, encouraging answers, that were also technically accurate and thoughtful. The community never excluded men, and over time, the male to female ratio on many of the mailing lists was debatable.

At several points in time, men on these mailing lists began to dominate conversation and answer many of the questions. A lot of the women on the lists fell back into "old habits" -- not answering questions, being afraid to be shot down, that kind of thing. Some of the men answered questions in very direct (not disrespectful necessarily, but matter-of-factly) tones, which served to turn a lot of the women off. One solution was to politely ask the men to respect the womens' space and the objectives of the community in general, which worked to an extent. Most of the men participating didn't even realise what they were doing, and were shocked to find out how it was received.

Another solution that was very accomodating to the "locker room" sort of mentality was to also create a womens-only sub-space for the community. This is a forum where only women are allowed. Of course it's difficult to enforce over the internet (as others have mentioned), but it did serve as an area where if a man was discovered ("outed") he was not welcome. Some women refused to participate, but it seemed to be a "best of both worlds" sort of thing. One issue faced here was transgendered/transexual people, and it was decided that gender identity (how a person identifies themselves) took precendence over biological identity (a person's physical sex). To me that's the only reasonable course of action, but it was debated -- some people see someone who is physically male but identified female as male, and no argument will change their mind.

I have participated in other strictly women-only communities where men are absolutely not allowed. While it is discriminatory, the argument for this is that most communities are male-dominated, and having a women-only community is to restore the balance by biasing heavily (exclusively) in the other direction. It would be awesome if we were able to discuss all issues in the presence of any gender without discrimination, but the unfortunate reality of our time is that we're just not there yet. Even when we do get there, it may still be nice to have gender/sex-centric issues (men don't have periods and women don't have prostates :p), but the exclusion of other gender/sexes may just not be necessary or realistic.

I don't mind the male presence, but we should keep the charter of this forum in mind: womens cycling and related issues. If this forum becomes male-dominated, we will have to deal with it, but in the meantime, one or two polite and helpful men aren't going to kill us.

</soapbox>

[Kitsune06]

Gawd. Say it's not so! :rolleyes:

[mary9761]

I'm a little uncomfortable now. I don't really have much in the way of boobs. Can I still post? :D :D

Sorry, I thought this thread needed a little comic relief.

I have PLENTY and then some and have often been asked to share, but unfortunately it don't happen that way:p

As far as the topic, I'm so far behind on the forums with computer problems, health problems and worry over my grandmother I don't know what happened on another thread, but I'll weigh in with as long as they are respectful and realize that this is indeed a forum discussing women's issues, I see no problem. My husband will be given my password etc and notes to possibly keep you guys up to date if I ever get in to see a surgeon and happen to need back surgery. I think Mr Silver has been great, I appreciated knowing about Silver's accident and her condition until she could get online and update us herself. It touched me deeply when I was offline recently and found when I came back that he'd inquired on my back. I hope he's feeling better too.
I don't like any form of discrimination either, as to the comment about why would a straight person go to a gay bar, I went to several with one of my friends for my birthday when I was single and had one of the best birthday's I can remember. It was great going, dancing having a blast and not being expected to "put out" for the priveledge LOL.... Seriously though, I've had many gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered friends over the years and I'd hate for them to be excluded from something just because of their gender/preference etc.
just my 2 cents and some change :D

[snapdragen]

Thor Hushovd. Enuf said!! Danilo? Sounds like a brand of yogurt? ;)

Thor will smash!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

(men don't have periods and women don't have prostates :p)

Tell that to my brother (the dorky one, not the other one). We were talking health and doctors recently and he proudly told me he regularly gets his prostate checked to avoid prostate cancer. "And YOU should get YOURS checked TOO!" he advised me. "I should??" says I. Then I had to let him know, and afterwards he said "I sure feel dumb!". :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I should have told him to get a PAP smear every year....

[emily_in_nc]

Oh and I forgot... you all must eat cookies!

NOW I'm on board..... :D

~Emily

[Bluetree]

I think you're a little late, Emily.
Lisa and Trek ate all the cookies. :rolleyes:

But there might be some leftover pie on the other thread...

[emily_in_nc]

I think you're a little late, Emily.
Lisa and Trek ate all the cookies. :rolleyes:
But there might be some leftover pie on the other thread...

SOLD! I've been reading that thread, and I am getting so hungry! And my DH just came upstairs and offered me some brownie-covered walnuts (have you ever heard of such a thing?! They were in his Christmas goodie basket from my mother). I've already brushed my teeth, so I was strong....
....but I did ask him to save me some for tomorrow night!

Emily

[jobob]

pops head up

Someone say Jens Voigt ?!?

He is simply beyond cool.
I fell in love with him all over again when I watched Overcoming.

Which I forgot to give back to you this weekend, sorry MP ! :o

[CycleChic06]

I'm so confused...where has this thread gone too? Pap smears and yogurt should never be mentioned in the same thread...eww.

[mimitabby]

I think we talked it out, reached consensus and now we're having the post meeting chitchat.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Yeah, we're having coffee and pie afterwards.

[margo49]

.

At several points in time, men on these mailing lists began to dominate

, but we should keep the charter of this forum in mind: womens cycling and related issues. If this forum becomes male-dominated, we will have to deal with it, but in the meantime, one or two polite and helpful men aren't going to kill us.

</soapbox>

Yeah, but look how much space time and energy this "one" is taking up already.

[jobob]

I think we talked it out, reached consensus and now we're having the post meeting chitchat.


Yeah, we're having coffee and pie afterwards.


hee hee, you two are a hoot :D

[East Hill]

One issue faced here was transgendered/transexual people, and it was decided that gender identity (how a person identifies themselves) took precendence over biological identity (a person's physical sex). To me that's the only reasonable course of action, but it was debated -- some people see someone who is physically male but identified female as male, and no argument will change their mind.


As long as we've settled the other issue, I will offer some levity.

A number of years ago, I worked at the Seattle Processing and Distribution Plant. For the locals to me, that's the end of the Interurban Trail on the north end, by Boeing.

One year we had a casual employee named Lei. Lei was a transgendered person, and she was physically a male, but preferred to be known as, and acted, female.

My supervisor at the time, a testosterone filled guy who wore pointy toed cowboy boots with little silver tips, could not handle this. Whilst everyone else in our pay location considered Lei 'her', my supervisor would not and apparently could not accept the idea of a transgendered person.

Me: Mark, did you want Lei to go to 040?
Supervisor Mark: No, send him to the barcode sorter.
Me: Will we be able to get her back at 1:00?
SM: Lei is not a girl. Lei is a guy.
Me: Well, Lei would rather be referred to as 'her'.
SM: I don't care. He's a guy.

Nowadays this would be considered gross discrimination, and my supervisor could have gotten sued for this, but it was the first time we had had the situation come up. We all just thought it was funny that the supervisor could not handle someone not wanting to be a man. After all, aren't men superior?

I was always so envious of Lei's hair. She had the most amazing long, thick hair. I coveted that hair. Sigh...

East Hill

[Pax]

Yeah, but look how much space time and energy this "one" is taking up already.

My thoughts as well. Now we have another thread about how thankful he is...perhaps it's just attention seeking behavior?

[Trek420]

My thoughts as well. Now we have another thread about how thankful he is...perhaps it's just attention seeking behavior?

Well we are an attentive, supportive bunch that's why we're here, or maybe it's the food.

Well I should shut up, log off and train or walk the dog :rolleyes: but ooh, pie :D Cold apple pie for breakfast, yum...hey...this pie has no filling :confused: big hole carved outa the bottom just top crust and WTF :confused:

::: puts ice cream on top :::: there! :D

[Hub]

I think well -mannered fellows like Mr. Silver & Pscyclepath should be allowed.
I'm sure that we can all act witchy enough to run off any ill mannered oafs.
Pscyclepath is my brother that has posted a few times. He said the forum
is a refreshing change of pace from all the pissing contests at the male dominated forums.- Heck - here it is 'all about the bike!:o .

[Hub]

His last name is too sissy. Plus it makes me think of poo. :p

Oh and I forgot... you all must eat cookies!

V.

SUrely someone here has some extra cookies- WAIT the emergency cookies are under the printer!!

Yeah :p

[Bad JuJu]

Just checked my identical twins hands...index and ring finger are the same length on both hands. DH points out his are not. ;) My index finger is longer on both hands. :eek: What the heck does that mean? :rolleyes:
I just checked with my fraternal twin and both of our right hands are similar proportionally. That is, his hands are larger than mine, but on both our right hands, the ring finger is significantly longer than the index: on his a half-inch and on mine not quite a centimeter. Neither of us has anything you could call athletic ability--aside from my cycling that is--but he has great manual dexterity and plays a variety of stringed instruments well: guitar, cello, violin, banjo (such a Renaissance man!)

[Pedal Wench]

Well we are an attentive, supportive bunch that's why we're here, or maybe it's the food.

Well I should shut up, log off and train or walk the dog :rolleyes: but ooh, pie :D Cold apple pie for breakfast, yum...hey...this pie has no filling :confused: big hole carved outa the bottom just top crust and WTF :confused:

::: puts ice cream on top :::: there! :D


Oh, silly girl, the ice cream goes INSIDE, to replace the missing filling. We just had to wait for the pie to cool down. The WHIPPED CREAM goes on top.
:D

[HillSlugger]

I've tried to avoid this thread and keep my mouth shut but just got sucked in anyway. I feel that discrimination is wrong.

I need to ask: if you want to keep this a forum for women only, what criteria would you use to validate "Woman"?

Behavior: passive, non-aggressive, subservient, nurturing...does anyone actually believe any of these "traditional" descriptors to actually be valid and apply to ALL women and ONLY women?

Physical metrics: Estrogen level, breasts, female genitals, female internal organs. Let's throw out the postmenopausal women because their estrogen is too low, those who've had mastectomies, those who've had hysterectomies.

Are we going to need to pass a physical for entry?

This is a women's forum by virtue of the fact that it concerns itself with women's biking issues and is populated by (mostly) women.

[ridethewind]

Ahem. Jaan Kirsipuu.

Igor Gonzalez de Galdeano :)

[caligurl]

I also participate on the women's board on bikeforums.net. They debate quarterly (it seems) on whether or not to allow men in. It's a private forum - women are invited in, once it's been established on the public forums that they are, indeed a woman, although it would probably be easy for someone to fake entry. Our forum here is often mentioned, in that this one is open to anyone who wants to drop in. Trying to police it would require more work than Susan O., or Jeff, would probably want to take on. I have a feeling that most men gradually lose interest in our issues. This IS a public forum, and we have to deal with that fact.

there is a HUGE difference, though..... THIS forum is WAY better moderatoed than the forums at BF are.... since this is a women's forum.... for the most part the boys stay away.... whereas at BF you have all the boys who are already there spouting off their garbage... posting pics of 1/2 naked women.... beind sexiest and dirty..... it would be a nightmare to control... they can't control the co-ed forums from the smut and trash!

yes this forum is public.... but it's also well moderated and advertised as a women's forum.... so most men can't be bothered to show up... if they cause trouble they are booted....

heck.... look at the trouble in the closed BF forum when we had a male moderator for a short time! YIKES!!!!! it's just a different "crowd" there than here....

[caligurl]

What we are spared of here is: "I rode such and such in 2 hours" to get a response of; "well, I did it in 55 minutes, with only 1 pedal!"
the constant testosterone challenge. Here, you might not be the best rider
but the better (?) riders aren't going to grind you into the dirt for sharing your achievements.

oh AMEN! i hate all the chest pounding that goes on in the co-ed forums!!!!! give me a break.....

[caligurl]

i'm a day late and dollar short, as usual.....

but that's ok.... i'm not eating cookies and pie right now.... i'm being good!

[Dianyla]

Chiming in late (as usual :rolleyes: ) with two random thoughts:

The women's only locker room analogy simply doesn't work, since our "locker room" happens to have glass windows. :)

Team Estrogen focuses on selling women's cycling equipment and apparel. My brother has big thighs and happens to prefer the way that the women's PI Microsensor shorts fit around the legholes. Should Men be barred from buying women's cycling clothes? :p

[bcipam]

oh AMEN! i hate all the chest pounding that goes on in the co-ed forums!!!!! give me a break.....

Cali if you recall - alot of that chest pounding you speak of - comes from women!!!

I don't think the art of boasting is limited to women. I'm fairly active on another forum and I have to say even though coed - it's monopolized by 3 maybe 4 women. The guys are secondary. On another forum, where folks are more civilized everyone has a voice. OK some threads - like "should I convert my 1962 whatever to a singlespeed, and what tools do I need to do that" may get more guy input than gal but that's more becasue the guys are just more interested. We women also have our topics and occasionally some poor guy pipes up.

Dianyla said it - anyone can read these post, the posts are not off limit to the general public. We have no secret code cause we are women to get in. If you are sensitive about some of the discussions you probably should not participate cause none of us knows who lurks about.

[roadfix]

I'm a guy and I've been here for several months now. When I visit TE I usually limit myself to visiting and posting mainly in the maintenance and California subforums where my interest lies. I visit other cycling forums as well.....this one just happens to be specifically geared towards women.

[bcipam]

well there you go - who knows, maybe half of the TE crew has a Y chromosone - we just don't know.

Thanks Road for being honest.

[Aint Doody]

And what have the nice men here hurt? C'mon, y'all--get over it.

[donnambr]

Like a true Gemini, my opinions on this are conflicted and certainly not consistent. I am a regular BF participant also, perhaps more often there than here. That's because I love to argue the minutiae of traffic/safety issues. I admit I'm a bit strange/nerdy, so I would never think that would be a popular activity here. That said, there is something so welcoming and accepting about TE, that I keep coming back. Perhaps it's because while I enjoy having both women and men friends, I do love that mostly-girl-only time.

The other reason relates to what caligurl touched upon. Not to sound too much like a college textbook, but some of the "institutional sexism/misogyny" on that other list is way over the top for me - and I suspect that I have a somewhat higher tolerance for it than caligurl. (not meant to be offensive in any way, cg, we all have our limits) I think it prevents many women from participating, and the ones that do are often so thick-skinned, they are rather intolerant of women who are not. I don't think that's right, there many women who aren't particularly outspoken/assertive, and those of us who are can get downright exhausted holding our own constantly. So, I fully support the women-only rule of the women's forum there. It seems like any discussion of a women's health or clothing issue there turns into a thread to post pornographic images of women. There's also the more subtle issue of opinions posted by females from a female-specific perspective being totally dumped on. It even happens with the advocacy & safety topics - crazy! What century are we living in again? :mad: I think there are guys on BF who would be great additions to a mostly women discussion, but how to distinguish? You can't on a forum that large, so I think the best policy is to ban all men. Sad, but practical.

So, back to TE. Strangely enough, I am not in favor of limiting participation to women. The badly-behaving men either get bored fast, we women make quick work of them and they leave, or Susan (I presume) makes them leave. Of the men who stay, I have never read a post from them that I found offensive, even if I do not agree with what they are saying. I think Lisa's cat analogy is spot-on in this case: the guys are cautious and tread lightly. I can live with that. My cat certainly approves. :)

[siume99]

Interesting turn of events just happened. I just bought a dual bottle holder for the seat of my tri bike. My predicament was that I also wanted a seat bag for spare tube, tools, cell phone, etc. Today, I Googled “triathlon seat bag.” Low and behold I found a link to your forums.

I apologize that I don’t remember who said this, but someone said they wouldn’t kick George Hincapie out for asking questions about a hypothetical women’s clothing line. A salesperson should understand how the product will help a customer. Also, they should understand the short comings and how to overcome them. Your “tips-n-tricks” section caught my eye. If I sold bikes and accessories, I’d probably want to do my research on your website to “satisfy each and every customer.” (No sexual intention, it was the Sears motto.) My LBSs don’t have many female associates (if any). I might be wrong, but I’m guessing some women feel intimidated walking into situations like this. If there are men and women looking for tools to better serve their customers, then why not allow it?

I currently work as an engineer. I’ve found that diversity (age, sex, race, job duties, backgrounds…etc) create a stronger design. Having these different points of view help uncover the best answer. I mention this, because I assume you sometimes post questions on various topics that somehow relate to the men in your life; fathers, sons, boyfriends, husbands, training partners, coworkers, that idiot driver that says “nice @$$.” Not everyone has the confidence or opportunity to flat out ask sensitive/personal questions in person. That is one advantage of the WWW. Anonymity. If it makes you uncomfortable for a stranger to read what you wrote, don’t write it. Even with your sign in name you have anonymity. As Thumper’s mother told him, “if you can’t say nothing nice, don’t say nothing at all.” I think it’s foolish to not get all the information you can on a subject. No one says you have to agree with what you find. You are an individual who is free to make his/her own decisions.

Yeah, well if you haven’t already figured it out, I’m a guy. I do have a mom, girlfriend, female training partners, and coworkers that I care about and sometimes have questions pertaining them. I’m confident enough in myself to say that my tri bike has a “female intended saddle” from Serfas. It works for my pelvis structure. I also have long legs and a short torso. Sound familiar? There is no such thing as a “typical guy/gal.” “Averaging” is the summing of all the values and dividing by the sample number. It’s a way of simplifying the situation. It sometimes hides the good/bad outliers. Don’t let the actions of a few, dictate what happens to all. Have special “cures” for those situations. Everyone is physically and psychologically unique. I hope I didn’t offend anyone. It wasn’t intentional.

I feel that the quality of your website would go down if you “outlawed” men. I only say this because you would loose additional view points. I understand you have the option, not necessarily the right, to ban men. This is the WWW you know. How would “real” women get into the forum to search for input? If it’s by invite, not everyone knows “somebody.” Again, you still have your anonymity.

That’s my 2 cent donation….

Oh BTW, any suggestions for a seat bag if I have a Minoura twin bottle cage under my saddle?

[margo49]

.

I feel that the quality of your website would go down if you “outlawed” men. I only say this because you would loose additional view points.
?

Do you mean to imply that you have raised the quality of TE??

To anyone else worried about losing additional viewpoints:
I am prepared to give more than one point of view on any subject you name. Or at least post several times on the same topic - each time raising a different *aspect* . (So it would be several one-paragraph posts instead of a longer one with paragraph indentations)

[mimitabby]

I

Yeah, well if you haven’t already figured it out, I’m a guy. I do have a mom, girlfriend, female training partners, and coworkers that I care about and sometimes have questions pertaining them. I’m confident enough in myself to say that my tri bike has a “female intended saddle” from Serfas. It works for my pelvis structure. I also have long legs and a short torso. Sound familiar? There is no such thing as a “typical guy/gal.” “Averaging” is the summing of all the values and dividing by the sample number. It’s a way of simplifying the situation. It sometimes hides the good/bad outliers. Don’t let the actions of a few, dictate what happens to all. Have special “cures” for those situations. Everyone is physically and psychologically unique. I hope I didn’t offend anyone. It wasn’t intentional.

I feel that the quality of your website would go down if you “outlawed” men. I only say this because you would loose additional view points. I understand you have the option, not necessarily the right, to ban men. This is the WWW you know. How would “real” women get into the forum to search for input? If it’s by invite, not everyone knows “somebody.” Again, you still have your anonymity.

That’s my 2 cent donation….

Oh BTW, any suggestions for a seat bag if I have a Minoura twin bottle cage under my saddle?

Dear Siume
Welcome to TE. I am glad you are inobtrusively reading and enjoying TE.
You have brought up some very valid points, nothing is private on this forum
and people need to be reminded of that fact every now and then.
m

[salsabike]

Siume and Roadfix, you are welcome as far as I'm concerned.

[siume99]

Do you mean to imply that you have raised the quality of TE??

To anyone else worried about losing additional viewpoints:
I am prepared to give more than one point of view on any subject you name. Or at least post several times on the same topic - each time raising a different *aspect* . (So it would be several one-paragraph posts instead of a longer one with paragraph indentations)

I wasn’t implying that I/men raise the quality of TE. I think help sustain would be a better implication. From the basic standpoint, men currently are allowed to post.

When asking a question, why would someone ask if they already knew the answer? Is it for confirmation or was it because they brainstormed before and didn’t come up with the answer that seemed to work? No one is correct all of the time. Sometimes one (or multiple) person(s) has the answer in the group. Other times it’s just a seedling that the answer grows out of.

A “forum” is successful because it’s a community of people. If I knew, without a doubt, that a particular person had the answer to my problem, why would I voice my question to everyone else? Why not personally email or call that one individual? When you limit your audience, you limit the number of opportunities.

If someone posts a question and doesn’t find a response that works for their situation, then the forum failed them. If the original poster was looking for congratulations on an accomplishment and didn’t get any, the forum failed them. If the original poster was looking for an understanding shoulder and none offered, the forum failed. But, if one person offered the celebration or shoulder, then that one person met the expectations of the original poster. The forum was successful.

I found TE because of my triathlon seat bag w/ water bottle ordeal. Obviously, my LBSs haven’t offered suggestions that fit the bill. On this one particular issue, they have failed. When I do find what works for me, I’ll stop by and share my experience. I want to maximize the chances of finding a solution, and help others at the same time.

Thanks for the welcomes Mimitabby and Salsabike.

[Bluetree]

Siume and Roadfix, you are welcome as far as I'm concerned.


Roadfix and Siume, I welcome you as well. Although... if you plan on planning on more than a drive-by visit, please go to the "Getting to Know You" thread and post yer stats... we are a nosey (if overprotective) bunch! :p

[jeannierides]

Roadfix and Siume, I welcome you as well. Although... if you plan on planning on more than a drive-by visit, please go to the "Getting to Know You" thread and post yer stats... we are a nosey (if overprotective) bunch! :p

Yeah... what she said... ;)

My SO did the same thing... He *Googled* Gunnar, and got the thread discussing the possibility of my new bike - which has btw been ordered!!:D

[CycleChic06]

How would “real” women get into the forum to search for input? If it’s by invite, not everyone knows “somebody.”

This is true. I still haven't figured out how to get in the women's forum on the bike forums website. It's hidden and apparently you have to email someone but I don't know who. This forum is much easier to get on to.

[Meaux]

I've tried to avoid this thread and keep my mouth shut but just got sucked in anyway. I feel that discrimination is wrong.

I need to ask: if you want to keep this a forum for women only, what criteria would you use to validate "Woman"?

Behavior: passive, non-aggressive, subservient, nurturing...does anyone actually believe any of these "traditional" descriptors to actually be valid and apply to ALL women and ONLY women?

Physical metrics: Estrogen level, breasts, female genitals, female internal organs. Let's throw out the postmenopausal women because their estrogen is too low, those who've had mastectomies, those who've had hysterectomies.

Are we going to need to pass a physical for entry?

This is a women's forum by virtue of the fact that it concerns itself with women's biking issues and is populated by (mostly) women.

I've just been reading this one from afar, but I must say...Touche!

[margo49]

I shared this issue with DS#2 (aged 14) a few days ago. (Not in great detail - 14 year old boys are not ones for great detail and finer points as a rule and he is no exception).
He brought it up again yesterday evening: "What's up with that guy still on your forum? There are such things as unwritten rules on all the forums. You just have to use your intuition"

[smiling proud-mother-smile and thinking proud-mother-thoughts, margo49 wonders if there is a "smiley" for this ]

[East Hill]

there is a HUGE difference, though..... THIS forum is WAY better moderatoed than the forums at BF are.... since this is a women's forum.... for the most part the boys stay away.... whereas at BF you have all the boys who are already there spouting off their garbage... posting pics of 1/2 naked women.... beind sexiest and dirty..... it would be a nightmare to control... they can't control the co-ed forums from the smut and trash!

yes this forum is public.... but it's also well moderated and advertised as a women's forum.... so most men can't be bothered to show up... if they cause trouble they are booted....

heck.... look at the trouble in the closed BF forum when we had a male moderator for a short time! YIKES!!!!! it's just a different "crowd" there than here....

I hadn't visited this thread in a while, and it's taken an interesting turn. I don't belong to the 'closed' forum at BF, and probably never will. I can't believe that someone would put a guy in charge of a woman only closed forum, but it does seem to go with my having noticed that there are some not so good moderators over there. How many female moderators are there? One? Two? Koffee got chased out, partially because she wouldn't allow them to post their filth.

You are absolutely correct, this forum is well moderated, and no, the co-ed forums over there are not moderated for smut and trash. I sometimes wonder what is going on over there. I know I have logged on in the wee hours of the morning, reported spammers, and three hours later, the spammers are still there but a moderator's been on all night, posting gaily away.

Moderators have responsibilities. The moderators here do their jobs very well. And, our mods here are inobtrusive. I don't ever remember seeing a mod appear. But when I've reported spam on a few occasions, it's disappeared shortly thereafter. If it were only so in other places. I don't know about the rest of you, but I like well moderated forums.



It seems like any discussion of a women's health or clothing issue there turns into a thread to post pornographic images of women.

I don't want to see women sitting naked on bicycle saddles. I don't need comments about, well 'that's what I'd rather be following' showing a woman's rear end. We're here (and there) to learn about our passion for bicycles. If you have a passion for pornography involving bicycles and women, please set up your own private smut board. There are such things as 'members only' fora. But don't post it in public, on a site which is considered 'child friendly'.



There's also the more subtle issue of opinions posted by females from a female-specific perspective being totally dumped on.

It's sad, but true. Does anyone else remember the infamous thread about long distance randonneuring in Canada, and how it turned into a 'you should carry a gun' never mind that the OP stated quite specifically that she was in CANADA?

It doesn't even need to be a discussion of women's clothing in order to be turned into something with inappropriate images--there's a relatively recent thread about the wearing of championship jerseys in the general cycling forum. One of the last comments was

"I agree. Some people shouldn't wear championship jerseys."

and showed a photo of a woman wearing bibs. Not wearing anything on top, and holding her arms so that you thought her elbows were her breasts. I couldn't view the thread after that.

Perhaps the owner of the other site doesn't care about alienating 25% or more of his membership. All I know is that I get a lot more respect here than I do there, I don't have to put up with smarmy smut, and we have far better moderators.

East Hill

[caligurl]

I hadn't visited this thread in a while, and it's taken an interesting turn. I don't belong to the 'closed' forum at BF, and probably never will. I can't believe that someone would put a guy in charge of a woman only closed forum, but it does seem to go with my having noticed that there are some not so good moderators over there. How many female moderators are there? One? Two? Koffee got chased out, partially because she wouldn't allow them to post their filth.

WAS lol! it's now moderated by two lovely ladies.... (yes... the only two female moderators that i'm aware of) although, of course i'm sure joe (owner of the forum) has acces if he wants it.... i just found out it's his girlfriend who actually gives the women the "secret handshake" and not joe himself! so it appears even he distances himself!

there is really nothing going on in there and no reason not to at least get access! it's probably the slowest forum on that site! but i check it out just to see if there are any questions cuz there ARE ladies in there who have stated they won't venture into the other areas (they really need to come over here!!!!)


You are absolutely correct, this forum is well moderated, and no, the co-ed forums over there are not moderated for smut and trash. I sometimes wonder what is going on over there. I know I have logged on in the wee hours of the morning, reported spammers, and three hours later, the spammers are still there but a moderator's been on all night, posting gaily away.

Moderators have responsibilities. The moderators here do their jobs very well. And, our mods here are inobtrusive. I don't ever remember seeing a mod appear. But when I've reported spam on a few occasions, it's disappeared shortly thereafter. If it were only so in other places. I don't know about the rest of you, but I like well moderated forums.



I don't want to see women sitting naked on bicycle saddles. I don't need comments about, well 'that's what I'd rather be following' showing a woman's rear end. We're here (and there) to learn about our passion for bicycles. If you have a passion for pornography involving bicycles and women, please set up your own private smut board. There are such things as 'members only' fora. But don't post it in public, on a site which is considered 'child friendly'.



It's sad, but true. Does anyone else remember the infamous thread about long distance randonneuring in Canada, and how it turned into a 'you should carry a gun' never mind that the OP stated quite specifically that she was in CANADA?

It doesn't even need to be a discussion of women's clothing in order to be turned into something with inappropriate images--there's a relatively recent thread about the wearing of championship jerseys in the general cycling forum. One of the last comments was

"I agree. Some people shouldn't wear championship jerseys."

and showed a photo of a woman wearing bibs. Not wearing anything on top, and holding her arms so that you thought her elbows were her breasts. I couldn't view the thread after that.

Perhaps the owner of the other site doesn't care about alienating 25&#37; or more of his membership. All I know is that I get a lot more respect here than I do there, I don't have to put up with smarmy smut, and we have far better moderators.



i can't even add anything to the above... except to say you've basically covered it! i agree wholeheartedly! i, too, am one that cannot stand the smut.... (i don't mind chit chat... but the smut (images AND words) just has NO part in a BICYCLING forum!)

[Pax]

i can't even add anythint to the above... except to say you've basically covered it! i agree wholeheartedly! i, too, am one that cannot stand the smut.... (i don't mind chit chat... but the smut (images AND words) just has NO part in a BICYCLING forum!)

I come from a motorcycling website that makes BF look tame. The ONLY rules in the off-topic area are No posting of nipples, and No threats...anything (and I do mean anything) else is fair game. Women are routinely treated like filth and someone telling a joke about rape is considered funny and encouraged. I had over 15,000 posts on that board over four years and just completely reached my limit...it's just SO unnecessary to behave that way in a public setting.

I have come to TE over the last couple of years to soak up the nurturing and comforting vibe of other women. This place is so unique in cyberspace, I credit the women who belong here, admin, and mods for keeping it that way.

[Pedal Wench]

Other times it’s just a seedling that the answer grows out of.

A “forum” is successful because it’s a community of people. If I knew, without a doubt, that a particular person had the answer to my problem, why would I voice my question to everyone else? Why not personally email or call that one individual? When you limit your audience, you limit the number of opportunities.

If someone posts a question and doesn’t find a response that works for their situation, then the forum failed them. If the original poster was looking for congratulations on an accomplishment and didn’t get any, the forum failed them. If the original poster was looking for an understanding shoulder and none offered, the forum failed. But, if one person offered the celebration or shoulder, then that one person met the expectations of the original poster. The forum was successful.


Absolutely brilliant. People with minds like this, and who say it so eloquently should be allowed on whatever forum they like!

Please stay. I personally welcome your input.

[Irulan]

Perhaps the owner of the other site doesn't care about alienating 25% or more of his membership.


so why exactly do you gals hang out there if it's such a terrible place? If you don't like a board, leave. If you hang around and continue to post.. you've got no right to complain as boards are privately owned and you are choosing to be there - i.e, no one is forcing you to participate.

[Pax]

so why exactly do you gals hang out there if it's such a terrible place? If you don't like a board, leave. If you hang around and continue to post.. you've got no right to complain as boards are privately owned and you are choosing to be there - i.e, no one is forcing you to participate.

"Right to complain", beings how it's still a free country (and the board is located here) I figure we gals can complain til the cows come home if we want to AND still choose to participate on that board. :D

Sometimes folks just need to vent, that doesn't mean the board is completely without merit.

[Irulan]

I don't agree with that. I've posted on some boards that left me regularly with an icky feeling for one reason or another. It dawned on me one day that I didn't have to do that do myself - why put myself in a place that doesn't make me feel good or ok, or that just p*sses me off all the time? To me, the logical choice is to not go there, keep a little serenity in my life.

[matagi]

Now that we've slightly drifted onto the topic of other forums, I should add my 2c worth about Bikeforums. The thing I've noticed is that the smutty co-ed behaviour tends to be confined to a couple of the subforums, no doubt reflecting the average age of the posters.

If you look at the subforums where more "mature" individuals hang out, like the touring, long-distance cycling and over-50 subforums, then you get a completely different feel for the place.

TE works well on a couple of levels .... the feeling here tends to be inclusive rather than exclusive and any inappropriate posters are dealt with promptly. As far as I am concerned if someone has thoughtful and relevant information to post then I welcome them regardless of their gender.

[wannaduacentury]

TE is the only other cycling forum I go to daily. I come here for info, hang out, and cyber fun w/ this great group of ladies(and gent) and I'm community leader of Cycling & Triathlons over at ivillage.com. Since I head up that board, I keep it clean and fun like I receive here. So anyone is welcome to visit. Ivillage has strict rules too and I like them, they help keep spammers and inapproprite conversations off the boards. Jennifer

Here's the link
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-fbextreme

[East Hill]

Queen and matagi are both correct!

Queen, because this is a free country, and we get to vent.

Matagi, because the behaviour is generally confined to certain fora. I must confess that I am disappointed when I see a posting which degrades women by someone that I would have thought would know better, but I suppose we all have our lapses.

It's funny, because this evening at work, I spotted a brand new poster at BF. I clicked over to say hello, and this brand new member had already included an avatar of female anatomy, sitting on a motorcycle seat, and wearing a thong. I think that we just were talking about this!

Irulan--we understand the point. However, BF is supposed to be a family friendly website. We refuse to keep getting driven away from what is supposed to be a family friendly site just because a few people can't control themselves.

What are we supposed to do? That withdrawing from confronting bad behaviour is what causes sexual harrasment to continue. I'm not going to allow it to continue if I have my say so, and I believe that most of the women here would agree. I've seen my fill of women being harassed simply because no one would put their foot down and say 'stop'.

East Hill

[bcipam]

Now that we've slightly drifted onto the topic of other forums, I should add my 2c worth about Bikeforums. The thing I've noticed is that the smutty co-ed behaviour tends to be confined to a couple of the subforums, no doubt reflecting the average age of the posters.

If you look at the subforums where more "mature" individuals hang out, like the touring, long-distance cycling and over-50 subforums, then you get a completely different feel for the place.

TE works well on a couple of levels .... the feeling here tends to be inclusive rather than exclusive and any inappropriate posters are dealt with promptly. As far as I am concerned if someone has thoughtful and relevant information to post then I welcome them regardless of their gender.

Matagi - I think that's the key - at Bike Forum and even here, there are threads that I might find well not interesting for me so I tend to stay out of them. At BF - there are lots of cliquey forums but thankfully there are also alot of informative forums like the over 50, MTB, road cycling etc. I have found different people find different things offensive and I guess we need to respect that. Even in the cliquey forums - I can stay out of the "chatty" threads and review, answer or post only what I find informative.

I guess where I am going with this is that there is something for everyone, especially here. TE folks tend to moderate themselves and when something gets out of hand it's ended quickly. I see no reason to change anything right now. I suspect alot of men have read, reviewed and posted here and we never knew. That's the way it should be.

One interesting note - I post on another forum that is very large, even larger than BF. It has many different topics and there is a forum for women only and even a sub-forum for women's personal issues. Neither is locked out so I suspect men go in and read those forums regularly. My thoughts, never post something on the internet that you want to be a secret. Again the whole glass house thing.

[caligurl]

"Right to complain", beings how it's still a free country (and the board is located here) I figure we gals can complain til the cows come home if we want to AND still choose to participate on that board. :D

Sometimes folks just need to vent, that doesn't mean the board is completely without merit.

as they would say there: +1

however i have cut back my posting there considerably!

[caligurl]

It's funny, because this evening at work, I spotted a brand new poster at BF. I clicked over to say hello, and this brand new member had already included an avatar of female anatomy, sitting on a motorcycle seat, and wearing a thong. I think that we just were talking about this!

ughhhhhhhhh.... that just shows me she's looking for attention.... (i have the same avatar there as i do here! cute and GURLIE!)


Irulan--we understand the point. However, BF is supposed to be a family friendly website. We refuse to keep getting driven away from what is supposed to be a family friendly site just because a few people can't control themselves.


absolutely! there's at least one mod who's willing to try to keep it family friendly... but he's only one person.... i wish they would ALL enforce the forum rules.... but alas..... they don't... buy yes... why should we be driven away because a few don't understand FAMILY FRIENDLY? it's NOT an adult forum! anyone 13 and older is welcome.... (and it's not just the kids that posting junk!)

but like i said in my previous post... i've cut back my posting a LOT due to a lot of the subject matter and innuendo that goes on... i'm a married woman and i don't wish to play sex games online with men (or women!) even moreso at a CYCLING forum!

[East Hill]

ughhhhhhhhh.... that just shows me she's looking for attention....

Actually, I think it was a man who wandered in and thought it was a motorcycle forum!


why should we be driven away because a few don't understand FAMILY FRIENDLY? it's NOT an adult forum! anyone 13 and older is welcome.... (and it's not just the kids that posting junk!)

If you want to have a site which features naked women and bikes, be my guest. But it better be a 'member only' website! If it's open to the general public to wander through, I don't need to see women in provocative poses.


but like i said in my previous post... i've cut back my posting a LOT due to a lot of the subject matter and innuendo that goes on...

Exactly. There are a few people, both women and men over there who think that it's a flirting arena, and then get annoyed when the men go too far. I'm willing to be friendly, but I love Mr. East Hill, and I let people know that, so that they don't get the wrong idea. I had noticed that I wasn't seeing much of you over there, even in the SoCal forum.


i'm a married woman and i don't wish to play sex games online with men (or women!) even moreso at a CYCLING forum!


I'm there for the cycling. I'm there to learn things about bicycles. But I'm not there to have to put up with nonsense from anybody.

East Hill

[caligurl]

Actually, I think it was a man who wandered in and thought it was a motorcycle forum!

oops.... i thought you meant a female had her avartar as the naked butt!





I had noticed that I wasn't seeing much of you over there, even in the SoCal forum.





lol! except for yesterday when i got an idea and was on a roll with the 50 bizzilion RATE THE rides directory and threads... hmmmmm the forum is down today... (AGAIN!) wonder if i broke it! lol!

[East Hill]

I don't think you did it, caligurl, but I seem to remember that the promise was made that this would not happen again!

'Tis all right, we can spend more time here, eh?

East Hill

[caligurl]

I don't think you did it, caligurl, but I seem to remember that the promise was made that this would not happen again!

'Tis all right, we can spend more time here, eh?

East Hill


lol! ya.... i think it woulda broken sooner if i had done it! http://www.smileycons.com/img/emotions/231.gif

yeppers! i'm also catching up at a few of my fitness forums http://www.smileycons.com/img/emotions/217.gif (yes.. i'm a cheater!)