Training for Time Trials [Archive] - Women's Cycling Discussion Forums

RoadRaven

12-30-2006, 11:55 PM

Training… I try to make this specific to my race goals (see further on in thread). Each training ride should count and have a purpose.
I find Gale Bernhardt’s “The Female cyclist: Gearing Up A Level” to be a fabulous book. Bernhardt has based the training rides and programmes on Joe Friel’s suggestions in his “Cyclist’s Training Bible” (which is also part of our library).

Training Log… I keep this ‘religiously’. Every ride is logged and dated; the weather, the wind, the temperature, the course, who I am riding with, which bike I am on, my warm-up/cool-down, the ride or race distance, my time, my average, the heart-rate zone I rode in, my maximum heart-rate, my cadence.
This way I can compare rides more accurately because I have more data to see the similarities and differences... and, ultimately, my improvements.

Tapering… this is where the training log is also valuable. Too much riding the week before any race or event you have been specifically building for can be detrimental.
This is truer the older you are sadly, as the older you get the longer your body takes to recover. Some of my best rides have happened after I have been virtually off the bike for a week to a week and a half.

RoadRaven

12-30-2006, 11:57 PM

Training Zones and Rides… I have a selected few from the above mentioned books which I use specifically as part of training for time trials.

S1 – “step ups”. 1 hour spent to improve pedalling form and neuro-muscular coordination. Work in Zone 2 (for me that is 132-143 heart beats). You warm up at a cadence of 90, then you spend 3 minutes at 100, 2 minutes at 110 and 1 minute at 120 before dropping your cadence back to 90 again.
I do this 3-5 times inside the hour. You can do it outside on flat terrain, however I always do it on the spin bike inside (I have to lay the ornaments flat on the piano or they shake so much when I get to a cadence of 120 they topple!).

E2 – “endurance”. 1 ½ hours minimum designed to improve aerobic capacity and to improve your lactate threshold. Work in Zones 1-4 (for me that is 105-162 heart beats). Ride outside/on the road, preferably with others, and stay seated on hills.

M2 – “cruise intervals”. 1 hour minimum designed to develop your speed and improve your lactate threshold. Work in Zones 4-5a (for me that is 152-170 heart beats). After warming up, you spend three minutes in Zone 4, three minutes in Zone 5, three minutes in Zone 5a… then you rest for 1 minute and you repeat it over again – and again – and again…
Have chocolate milk waiting for you after the ride, and a comfortable place to lie down for half an hour.

T1 – “aerobic time trial”. This is a 10-15km ride designed to measure improvements in your TT fitness. Work in Zone 4 (for me that is 152-162 heart beats). You ride as you would for a time trial (position, rhythm etc), but at 8 beats below your lactate threshold. Always use the same, flat course on a windless day. Conditions must be as similar as possible every time you do this.
You can use an indoor trainer for this also.
As you get fitter, you will be able to the distance more quickly at the same heart-rate. I use a 15km “out’n’back” course.

PL – “motor-pacing”. 1 hour minimum designed to lift your speed endurance. You ride with others, drafting at 5km above your own top speed. It is called motor-pacing because you can also do it behind a training partner who is on a scooter.

E1 – “recovery”. 1 hour minimum designed to help your legs and body recover from the more intense training sessions. Work in Zones 1-2 (for me that is 105-143 heart beats). Although not specific to TT, recovery rides are vital to any training programme.
I tend to keep my HR below 130 beats in a recovery ride.

I also have specific rides to improve my sprinting and hill climbing (both weaknesses in my road racing) and also a workout for improving my pedalling form – though I find the spin bike great for this as the fly wheel gives me no choice!

RoadRaven

12-31-2006, 12:03 AM

hThe Race itself!

Warm-up… “they” say 1 minute for every year of your age… I always try and get between 35-45 minutes warming up with my HR about 135 or lower, just gentle riding. (I will be 42 in 2007).

The Start… practice being ‘held’ and use that if it is offered. This way you have no mucking about with clipping in or changing up gears as you begin. If held, I start in the big chain ring in the middle of the block, and stand as soon as I have momentum to get my speed up quickly.

Rhythm… I get into a gear I can just stay on top of, and try to pedal at a good cadence. I do not try to speed up or change gears when passed by someone else: this throws my rhythm. I hydrate before-hand and don’t drink during the race… its only 20km or so and drinking will not only lose time and speed, but it also throws my rhythm.

Position on the Bike… knees tucked in, head low over aero bars, arms relaxed (if possible) and shoulders ‘tucked’. The aim is to reduce the “bucket” I create that catches the wind and slows me down.
I don’t get sucked in to looking behind me – this will lose speed and time every time you do this. I stay on the aero bars – shifting position to hold the drops, or the tops, or sitting up also loses speed and time.

Intensity… Ride above your lactic threshold, my TTs are 18-25km so its only 35-50 minutes for me at the moment and I know I can race above my lactic threshold for an hour. It should not be comfortable – you should be riding so it hurts and you have nothing left at the end. This could also be listed under “head-space”… I have to learn to push it further, past the point of pain until there is nothing else except the road, the bike and the engine (me).

Head-space… stay focused on yourself and your performance. An ITT is about you and your race – it is the “Race of Truth” and if you allow yourself to “get thrown” it can have significant effects on your performance.

Things that have thrown me and the other TTers I know include:
Leaving the heart-rate monitor belt at home
Getting a flat tire during the warm-up
Getting passed during the race
The wind getting up
Occupants of a car yelling or tooting (whether supportive or abusive is irrelevant)
Another cyclist showing up with new gear or a new bike
Leaving the TT helmet or booties at home
An animal making an unexpected noise (sheep or cattle or a dog barking)
A horse running the fence-line alongside the road

The Finish Line… About 5km from the finish when you think you have nothing left, I actually try and lift my power output a bit more. After all, there is only 5 or so kilometres left, I can now not only give it everything but I can add a little more… I have nowhere else to go and nothing else to do after I cross the finish line… I can stop, so why not use everything I can possibly find?

(Note I said “try and lift my power output” – this is the goal, but I am still working on this. But the effort of trying to lift the output seems to ensure that I don’t drop my speed and ‘relax’ as the finish line gets closer). c

kelownagirl

12-31-2006, 10:22 AM

Thanks posting all this Roadraven. I am printing it out. I have a hard time finding a flat 15-20 k route that doesn't have at least a few stop lights. The only flats here are in town and as soon as you're out, it gets very hilly. Our TT route is rolling hills so I practice on that. I have to ride a flat 20 km to get to the route. Can that be my warmup?

RoadRaven

12-31-2006, 12:21 PM

Hey there Kelowna

I assume you are referring to doing the Aerobic TT on 15-20km of flat?
The reason a flat course is suggested, or that you do it an indoor trainer is because you need to keep your heart rate an even 8 beats below your lactate threshold.
Hills make it difficult to keep your heart rate even.

The step-ups you can do on less than flat ground.

If your normal TT course is a hilly one than that is what you work with, I guess. The 20km the town is a great warm up because you won't be pushing it too far.

I'm interested in hearing what you do in prep for your TTs too :)

kelownagirl

12-31-2006, 12:42 PM

Haha, I have no prep. I am a super newbie. Only started riding last spring. However, I have a secret wish to compete in a TT. I did the local route last year for the first time on my own and was only a few minutes off the young girl's times (the slow ones that is :) and only 1.5 minutes slower than dh. I'm sure with some training I could do ok in my age group (46). Not sure if there are any women my age who race though. Might make for an easy win eh? ;)

So, in answer to your question, my training looks pretty like what you just outlined for me :D

RoadRaven

12-31-2006, 12:56 PM

Haha Kelowna... I'm kinda like you I guess - I had not really thought about TTs or being competitive - then I started looking at others and riding with others, and then I did my first TT and loved it (despite REALLY sucking at it!)

I like that a TT is about yourself and you do not have to be responsible for others safety like you are in a pelaton.

As a 'relative newbie' you need to ensure you build in rest days - it is too easy to get excited about goals and overtrain.
3-4 intense rides a week is enough.

I do not count S1 - the step-ups - as intense... although your legs fly, my heart rate raraely gets above 125, which is right in the recovery zone for me.
So do step ups inbetween two of the more intense rides.

And well done on being so close to the times set already. Remember in a race situation you inevitably go even faster! I look forward to you writing up your first TT race in the Race Results forum :D

RoadRaven

01-14-2007, 03:07 PM

Here are some tips I have gathered from various books (Friel, Bernhardt) and magazine articles (Bicycling, Endurance Sport, Cycle Sport, Ride, Bicycling Australia)

1. Do 5 minute intervals once or twice a week, gradually increase interval length to 15 minutes each time.

2. Do “pyramid” intervals… based on distance… ½ km (¼ mile), recover, 1km (½ mile), recover, 2km (1 mile), recover, 4km (2mile), recover, 8km (4miles), recover, 4km (2mile), recover, 2km (1 mile), recover, 1km (½ mile), recover, ½ km (¼ mile), recover all the way back home.

3. Do 3-5km (2-3 mile) intervals with 3km of recovery (2mile) in between.

RoadRaven

01-14-2007, 03:22 PM

1. Time trialing is about efficiency, not just power. You increase efficiency by becoming more aerodynamic. It's much easier to increase your aerodynamic efficiency rather than increasing your power.

2. Your bike accounts for only about 15-20% of overall drag.

3. Approximately 75% of drag is determined by your body's resistance against the air.

4. Aero-bars will save up to two minutes on a 40km/25mile course. Aero-bars are more aero-dynamic than tri-bars.

5. Keep tyres pumped up hard - tubulars should have about 140psi (regular car tyres are pumped to 30psi)

6. A non-aero helmet creates four times the drag of a non-aero wheelset. It is therefore better (and cheaper) to spend money on a TT helmet, rather those tri-spokes and a disc.

7. How the race number is fixed to the bike matters more than having an aero wheelset. Place it low and stretch the jersey so the number is as flat as possible when the rider is in position and so that it does not create a "sail" effect.

8. On a round tubed bike frame, a water bottle on the seat tube is more aero than having no water bottle. It is more aero to put it on the seatpost than on the down tube.

9. Wearing gloves creates more drag than having a non-aero front wheel. Like the helmet - spend money on close fitting, smooth gloves rather than a HED disc...

10. TT booties and a skin suit will only save you seconds, and are not worth the expense unless you are an elite contender.

RoadRaven

01-25-2007, 04:40 PM

6. A non-aero helmet creates four times the drag of a non-aero wheelset. It is therefore better (and cheaper) to spend money on a TT helmet, rather those tri-spokes and a disc.

Just going to take myself to task here... while this statement is pretty accurate, it is only accurate if you wear your TT/aero helmet correctly and position your head so it sits in the most efficient place between your shoulder blades and if you never look sideways or behind you.

If you do move your head alot, or can't get the helmet to sit low between your shoulder blades, then your money is much better spent on aero wheels.

Geonz

01-25-2007, 06:13 PM

SheFly

01-26-2007, 06:51 AM

1. Time trialing is about efficiency, not just power. You increase efficiency by becoming more aerodynamic. It's much easier to increase your aerodynamic efficiency rather than increasing your power.

Got the power, now working on the aerodynamic... ;)

4. Aero-bars will save up to two minutes on a 40km/25mile course. Aero-bars are more aero-dynamic than tri-bars.

This is the newest piece of equipment going on my TT bike - integrated stem/aero bars. DH says that they are about 1lb lighter than my current setup.

9. Wearing gloves creates more drag than having a non-aero front wheel. Like the helmet - spend money on close fitting, smooth gloves rather than a HED disc...

Precisely why I don't wear gloves when I am TT'ing.... Then again, I don't wear them while road racing/training either.

10. TT booties and a skin suit will only save you seconds, and are not worth the expense unless you are an elite contender.

Well, I don't consider myself an elite contender, but I have both a skinsuit AND TT booties, and they do make a difference. Depending on the length of your TT, seconds count. For me, the addition of these items and an aero helmet probably saved between 30-45 seconds, which on a 9.75 mile course, is significant. Where these really made a difference though was on the tandem TT attempt.

Great advice, RoadRaven! And thanks for the training tips, too ;).

SheFly

Eden

01-26-2007, 08:54 AM

We'll see how much difference the equipment makes ;)
Truthfully, I will have changed a lot of things, hopefully power is among those things so I won't be able to say its any one thing, but I'm totally tickled.
I've ordered my helmet from the team, so aero helmet check
I got my TT bike last year check (only had the opportunity to race it once last year) check
Just purchased a used disc wheel last night (Hed superlight) and got a front wheel from ebay a while ago (Hed Jet 60), both tubulars.
All I need is one more tire and I'm all set to go. Best thing, I've managed to keep the budget for all of this under $1000, by going used on most stuff.
I can't wait to ride it now. The first TT is at the end of February, its totally flat, and only 8 miles so it should be a real barn burner.

RoadRaven

01-26-2007, 09:10 AM

Well, I don't consider myself an elite contender, but I have both a skinsuit AND TT booties, and they do make a difference. Depending on the length of your TT, seconds count. For me, the addition of these items and an aero helmet probably saved between 30-45 seconds, which on a 9.75 mile course, is significant. Where these really made a difference though was on the tandem TT attempt.

I would be interested to know how much of the 30-45 seconds was the helmet and how much was the booties and skin suit.

I know seconds count - every second counts... (to quote "THE" book)!! - I was just meaning that unless your right up there with your power-output (and it sounds like you are), then you may not see the gains made by equipment because they will be swallowed up by your increasing ability.
Heck, I know what I'm trying to say, I'm just not saying it very well!!! Sorry - might try again tomorrow!

I always wear a tight-fitting jersey with no pockets, but thats as brave as I'm gonna get - think I'd look too darn scarey in a skin suit...

Eden

01-26-2007, 09:30 AM

I always wear a tight-fitting jersey with no pockets, but thats as brave as I'm gonna get - think I'd look too darn scarey in a skin suit...

I soooo wish I had a photo of a woman who races around here.... You wouldn't be afraid to wear a skin suit if this woman were to be showing up at your races cause all eyes are always on her so no one would notice you at all. She wears a flourescent pink full body skin suit. She even wore it on a day it was in the 80's (that's over 26.6 c) for an uphill TT. BTW if it was racing at a higher level she would not be allowed to wear this getup - the rules say your skinsuit can't have full legs, but no one really cares at the 4's level.

Really though don't be afraid of wearing a skin suit. I didn't get one this year because I didn't have one on my clothing order yet and I'd already gotten the total up to over $400... Pretty much no one looks good in them so you wouldn't be alone. My husband's team kit skinsuits (and I think ours too for that matter) since they are black in the shorts area and a light color above make everyone look a little potbellied when the are standing upright no matter how skinny they are, but its not a fashion contest and everyone is more focused on their own race than bothering to look at you (unless you are head to toe in hot pink that is)

RoadRaven

01-26-2007, 10:52 AM

Whew! I suppose it is safe to say that if the TT is indoors, all that aero stuff doesn't matter? That I better work on the power? (Yea, I know, clipless!!! But ya know, it's even more fun to go hard in sneakers... I could tape myself in like in Breaking away, maybe?)

I don't know about indoor TTs, never having ridden indoors at all (though the local club and council are making exciting sounds about a velodrome for this region).

I imagine the aerodynamics are important, but in a different way.

Outdoors you have the wind eddying and shifting, the temperature, cars creating drafts and swirls, inconsistency in road surface, gradations...

Indoors the surface, the air resistance, flatness of course are all consistent...

Any experienced indoor racers shed some light on the aero indoor/outdoor question?

Def clip in pedals/shoes/cleats will improve your speed and power output once you have mastered them. No question.

Eden

01-26-2007, 10:59 AM

I don't know about indoor TTs, never having ridden indoors at all (though the local club and council are making exciting sounds about a velodrome for this region).

I imagine the aerodynamics are important, but in a different way.

Outdoors you have the wind eddying and shifting, the temperature, cars creating drafts and swirls, inconsistency in road surface, gradations...

Indoors the surface, the air resistance, flatness of course are all consistent...

Any experienced indoor racers shed some light on the aero indoor/outdoor question?

Def clip in pedals/shoes/cleats will improve your speed and power output once you have mastered them. No question.

I think Geonz's indoor tt was on computrainers... (or something similar) since you aren't actually moving forward no amount of aero gear will do much of anything :D

As far as indoors in a velodrome goes - yes! aero equipment and positioning will help you! If it didn't the pros wouldn't use it. Even without the inconsistancies in airflow outside you still need to overcome air resistance. Because its safer (no side winds) track racers inside can even use two solid disc wheels. The guys going for the hour record even go as far as to go to a velodrome in Mexico City (I think) because it is the highest elevation velodrome and the air is thinner there. Its debatable whether the decreased air resistance is offset or not by the fact that there is also less oxygen at that elevation.

RoadRaven

01-26-2007, 11:07 AM

I've ordered my helmet from the team, so aero helmet check

Just purchased a used disc wheel last night (Hed superlight) and got a front wheel from ebay a while ago (Hed Jet 60), both tubulars.

The first TT is at the end of February, its totally flat, and only 8 miles so it should be a real barn burner.

I don't have an aero helmet or wheels :(

My partner has the helmet, which he shares with my eldest sons - but my head is too small

We also have only one disc and a couple of tri-spokes - again, my partner and sons are the contenders, so they use them.

My partner did order me some bar-end shifters and together with the bull bars we picked up second hand a couple of weeks ago this will make my bike truly TT specific - I will not be able to road race at all with it. It will mean I do not lose time shifting position to change gears (inevitable on two of the TT courses which have hills) - the only time I will need to get out of the aero position will be at the turn around.

Hopefully this will be set up by the 8th of February - the next ITT the club is having.

Looking forward to reading your race report - don't forget to describe how you feel the gear went - the physical difference but also if it made a diffence to the way you prepared and acted mentally.

RoadRaven

01-26-2007, 11:15 AM

I soooo wish I had a photo of a woman who races around here.... You wouldn't be afraid to wear a skin suit if this woman were to be showing up at your races cause all eyes are always on her so no one would notice you at all. She wears a flourescent pink full body skin suit....
<<SNIP>>
....above make everyone look a little potbellied when the are standing upright no matter how skinny they are, but its not a fashion contest and everyone is more focused on their own race than bothering to look at you (unless you are head to toe in hot pink that is)

Well - flurescent pink I could cope with, its the pot-bellied thing that bothers me, and the muffin that stretches round my back, and the "wings" near my shoulders... I know people wouldn't be looking at me, but I just wouldn't feel comfortable...

I think Geonz's indoor tt was on computrainers... (or something similar) since you aren't actually moving forward no amount of aero gear will do much of anything

As far as indoors in a velodrome goes - yes! aero equipment and positioning will help you! If it didn't the pros wouldn't use it.

LOL Eden... we're both posting at the same time!!!
Yeah, thats right re Geonz... I think she is referring to a trainer as opposed to a race track - I forgot! And yeah, if you aint going nowhere theres no point to being aero...

And yeah, I was sure aero equipment would help indoors... there are just more variables outside.

RoadRaven

01-30-2007, 05:26 PM

Psst... My bar-end shifters just arrived all the way from Blighty today... will be able to use them in next weeks TT and tell you if they made a difference!

I am REALLY hoping so!

Have any of you got bar-end shifters... or made the shift from "normal" shifters to bar-end ones.

Any suggestions?

Eden

01-30-2007, 05:44 PM

That was the first thing I changed on the TT bike I bought. For some reason even though it was a dedicated TT bike the person who owned it before me had it set up with brifters on the cowhorns. It made little sense to me to do it that way since in order to shift you had to get out of the aero position. Mine are set up to be indexed for the back and friction for the front. It took a little practice to remember which way to go to shift them, but when it came to the first race I didn't have any goofs. I don't know if it made a difference in my time or not but it was much more comfortable to not have to get out of the drops repeatedly. If you didn't get a pair of aero brake levers to replace the brifters for braking you may want to make those your next purchase. You can get them pretty cheap and they're a lot more hand friendly than mounting brifters out on the bars.

RoadRaven

01-30-2007, 06:03 PM

We got hold of some second hand bullhorns, so they have the brakes but of course no drops.

I am looking forward to using the bar-end shifters for exactly that reason of not getting out of the aero position to change gears.

Hopefully the only time I'll have to change position is at the turn around when I use the brakes!

Good to hear you found them so easy to use - spesh in the first race
Thanks Eden

SheFly

01-31-2007, 06:14 AM

Like Eden, that was the first change I made to my TT bike, and it made a big difference! Not having to get out of the aero position to shift was a huge help. Before I made this change, I would TRY to ride the entire course (which is rolling) in one gear for as long as possible, just to avoid changing position. Much better now.

As for skin suits - Eden is right on this one - NO ONE looks good in a skin suit :D . I'm not sure how much time this has actually saved me, but I feel faster ;) And I still think that for me, it likely made a 10 - 15 second difference.

DH just put new aero bars on my TT bike - now it looks like an alien! He also installed a new drive train and changed my wheels, so the bike is approx. 20 lbs. He claims it should be really fast - I told him that the bike may be fast, but it's the engine that matters ;) .

Can't wait to hear about both of your TTs this month! Our series doesn't kick off until April.

SheFly

RoadRaven

02-04-2007, 08:57 AM

Well, my partner has fitted bull horns onto my bike, and the bar end shifters are on my aero bars.

I took her for a ride yesterday... what a difference!
And like you say, Eden and Shefly, SO easy to use!

It was awesome - I "test-drove" over the Dartmoor TT course (in my goals) and the mid-section of that has some rolling hills.

I could feel/see that it is going to be (relatively) easy to lift my time over this section because I could never quite get the right gear on "normal" bars/shifters... but not having to shift out of the aero position to get through the valley is so very sweet!

Next step will be some deep dish wheels to make them slightly more aero I think... TT suit is still a little way away!!! Not brave enough for that!

Well, I'll ride some more on my Giant today and tomorrow, rest on Wednesday and the first ITT of the year is Thursday.

violette

02-06-2007, 04:18 AM

RoadRaven:

How old are you, what's your maximum heart rate. It all depends on what this is. I'm 38, MHR 180. Would I work at the same rate as you?

SheFly

02-06-2007, 04:59 AM

RoadRaven:

How old are you, what's your maximum heart rate. It all depends on what this is. I'm 38, MHR 180. Would I work at the same rate as you?

Not necessarily. I am also 38 (about to be 39), and my max HR is actually higher than yours - around 186. I have a training partner who is the same age as I am, but has a much lower max HR, and we don't work at the same levels of exertion - she is tiny (about 5'5" and 110lbs), and I am not ;) (5'10", 150 lbs). We have different styles as well - I am a sprinter and great at the TT, but she is an awesome climber.

My point is, that age and HR are not the only indicators of your rate of exertion.

SheFly

RoadRaven

02-06-2007, 07:23 AM

Hey there Violette

I am 42 in August, resting HR of 39, max HR of 186 (I know I have posted lower when previously asked, but in December and January consistently got my HR up over 182bpm.

However, as Shefly says, age and HR max are not the only parts of the calculation.

I suggest you try and work out what your lactate threshold (LT) is. You can do this in a gym/sports lab.... or you can do it by perceived exertion. You will need a heart rate monitor to recognise you LT.

If you do it by perceived exertion, you must find somewhere you can ride really hard and fast... or find a hill you can monster. Keep pushing yourself and the point at which your legs ache so they dont want to work (but before you get to the point of wanting to throw up) will be your approximate LT. As soon as you crest the hill keep moving your legs round and you will find the discomfort goes away as the lactic acid disperses. (If you get to the point of throwing up you have found your max HR.)

Once you know your lactate threshold, you can take anyone's training plan if it is based on percentages of LT, and adapt it for yourself.

Good luck

(Personally, I can't wait til I can afford the luxury of a power tap, I would much rather use that than a HR monitor...but that's another story!)

RoadRaven

02-11-2007, 09:16 PM

TT last Thursday.... lurve my bar end shifters and bull horns... so fantastic!!!

:) :D :) :D :)

A MUST have for any of you TTers out there that dont have them yet!

SheFly

02-12-2007, 04:35 AM

I knew you would love them! And they made quite a difference in your time, too. Now you just need to add a skinsuit :D .

SheFly

hellosunshine

02-24-2007, 10:07 PM

brilliant thread!

im still doing the base work for the 2007 season which will end in a week,getting up to 21 hrs a week.......everyother day i do 10 mins on/off big heavy gear work.

intervals twice a week in the racing season,
race twice a week
RECOVERY RIDES
1 endurance hilly ride of 3 hrs
and also power sprints,where i find a gradual hill of about 90secs "climb" and sprint up it 7-12 times in the hardest gear i can push until my performance drops off.

im also a light weight so twas interesting that the point was made different builds have different things they are good at.im better at hillier events and also the longer distance stuff,10 mile time trials are not my forte.

40 in 13 days max hr 184 resting hr 51. 48kg and 5' 5"

ALWAYS REMEMBER,LOSING TOO MUCH WEIGHT MEANS LOSS OF POWER.

downhilldiva

03-27-2007, 09:26 AM

Thanks so much for all of the great TT tips. I will be trying my first one this spring. I am excited to try some of your workouts and I'll definately be working on my positioning.

RoadRaven

03-27-2007, 10:13 AM

Hey there DH Diva!
Most excellent to hear you are going to give this type of racing a go.
Some people love TTs (erm... me for example?) and some people just don't want to even try.
I look forward to reading your first race report on your TTs this spring (that seems funny to write - its autumn here!) and I am anticipating that you will find it interesting and fun
:)

CR400

03-30-2007, 09:22 AM

Ok, help me with this I read somewhere that it is pointless to buy a TT bike unless you can go fast enough to use it. In the case I read it was 25mph. How true is this statement?

SheFly

03-30-2007, 09:39 AM

Ok, help me with this I read somewhere that it is pointless to buy a TT bike unless you can go fast enough to use it. In the case I read it was 25mph. How true is this statement?

This is a personal choice! There are certain elements of a TT bike that will actually increase your speed. Of course, you DO need to have some power to do that. You're not going to jump from 20 - 25 mph just by going to a TT bike, for example.

I definitely increased my speed when I moved to a TT-specific bike, and added other aero-dynamic components. I am now on my SECOND TT bike (see the new beauty at: http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=14378). I also race on this bike WEEKLY through the season...

You haven't stated what your goals are, so it is difficult to say if this would help or hurt you moving forward. Sorry to seem disjointed, but I really do think the correct answer to your question is "It depends".

SheFly

Eden

03-30-2007, 09:52 AM

Ok, help me with this I read somewhere that it is pointless to buy a TT bike unless you can go fast enough to use it. In the case I read it was 25mph. How true is this statement?

I doubt that is true.... I looked at the some of the TT results from around here and the winners in the 1/2 women's fields are generally doing right around 24/25 mph.

Of course a TT bike is not going to suddenly turn you into a speed demon right away either. Everything you change (areo bars, aero helmet, bike, disc wheel, etc.) will likely shave off seconds in a short tt (10 -12 mile) maybe minutes if you are doing long tt's or tri's, so really what to look at is how far back from placing you are. If you are 10 min back from the winner, then work on your fitness. If you are right up there and you are missing out by 30 seconds then equipment just might put you up on the podium. (and practice at the turn around and finish - two places where it is easy to lose precious seconds)
First thing to get - aerobars - this will give you the biggest boost out of any piece equipment you can buy. I'm pretty sure the aero helmet is next. Other things get more tricky. I've heard you can reduce your drag by not wearing gloves as much as putting a disc rear wheel on will do - so pick and choose carefully.
I chose to get a dedicated TT bike more for convenience. I do a fair amount of stage racing in the summer and having to change over the bike (put on aerobars, change the saddle position) to do the TT, then change it back for the crit can be a stress that you just don't need on race day. (Plus I got mine used and it was a really good deal).

CR400

03-30-2007, 01:34 PM

My goals as far as TT are to accoplish as much as I can speed and time wise without a TT bike. I feel that I have to be fast enough to earn it. In other words I want to be strong enough and fast enough to be competitve with myself and others before I lay down the cash. I mean you only use them for that one thing. Right now even a TT bike wouldn't make me competitive enough. Example, 5k slightly rolling TT the best I have ever averaged was 22.58 and 8:24. Even though Monday I did 20.40 and 8:50 at the beginning of my road season. So I am hoping for good things by July. That historically is when I am the strongest and fastest. Tests and races show that I have a high LT, but I really don't know how to develope it. I have problems with high speed tolerence. I can hit and maintain 24 to 26 but only for a mile or so, and of course when I do so my heart rate goes up above 105% of LT.

CR400

03-30-2007, 01:39 PM

Oh I should also mention that my course has two 90 degree turns in it one left and one right. Plus a set of railroad tracks. It may be that I scrub speed while getting around these obsticles. I almost wiped out on monday trying to take the left at 22mph. Regular back roads as well.

Eden

03-30-2007, 01:46 PM

Once you've got a good base in the best way to build speed is to do interval training. It's not fun, but it works... It will help you build the ability to stay up at your LT for longer periods of time too. (if you know your LT that is generally where you shoot to keep your HR near doing TT's but 5K is pretty short... you might want to go a little harder? the shortest TT we have around here is 8 miles or about 13K)

I was doing 4-5 3 min HR Zone 5 intervals with 3 min recoveries between, and 3-4 8 min hill HR Zone 4 low cadence hill intervals once a week each last month. This month I've got hill sprints and Zone 5 hill intervals on the line up. Ugggh, did the sprints day before yesterday and today I'm posting this to put off doing the hill intervals.....

btw - clip on aerobars don't have to be expensive - I have a cheap pair from Performance that I got while waiting for my nice set to come in - well I ended up modifing the Performace ones so much (with a hacksaw...) that I decided to keep those ones rather than hack up the pricey pair. I think they cost about $15... and aerobars are the piece of equipment that will make the biggest difference in your performance.

kelownagirl

03-30-2007, 05:55 PM

Eden - what do you differently with your saddle when you do a TT?

Eden

03-30-2007, 06:03 PM

Some people move their saddles forward and up if they are going to use their road bikes for TT's. I never wanted to mess with my saddle height in case I got it back wrong for road racing, so that's one good reason for the dedicated TT bike.

smilingcat

03-31-2007, 10:41 PM

Hi hellosunshine,

48kilos and 5' 5"... Sounds like you need to put some weight on. Even for a hill climibing specialist, you need more body mass. I've heard number around 2lbs (approx. 1kilo) per one inch of your height. so at 5' 5", you should weigh in around 59kilos? Well I'm sure that rule of thumb needs to be adjusted for women.

and I need to lose about 10 kilos. :( :mad: not that I race. It's just because...

I hated interval training and still hates it. I prefer the rest day :D

Shawn

Grog

04-01-2007, 08:44 AM

Another fine rule of thumb is 5 lbs per inch above 5 feet (or 6 lbs for men).

It corresponds to a BMI of about 21-23 I think.

A climber would want to be a tiny bit below that, but not much.

RoadRaven

04-01-2007, 11:09 AM

CK... if you are interested in TTs you should def get a TT bike...

I mean, if you were interested in playing basketball, would you go play only in your golf shoes because they were the only sports shoes you had? 'Course not...

Having a TT specific bike means that you dont have to mess with the position of your bars or seat - and a big part of doing a TT is being able to output power in the most aero position you can... and that can be tough and uncomfortable to train your body to.

You don't have to spend heaps on a bike to make it your TT bike. We bought a nice Giant TCR Aero 2 on sale for $NZ1500 - thats been the biggest expense. It came with aero bars attached, but I wanted bull horns not drops, so we have picked up from TradeMe (our equivalent of EBay) bull horns for about $20 and redid the front end... we bought an extra long carbon seat post for about $10... I borrow my sons front wheel which has a deep rim...

With my next TT some time away, my partner has just swapped my stem post out for a shorter one... it drops my front end nearly 2 cm and brings it back about 1cm... my profile is much more aero, but I went for a 5km spin on it yesterday and its going to take a few rides to get used to. My thighs tap up into my belly and my right shoulder was feeling the weight of me on it. However, that profile into the wind should gain me about 15 secs into the wind if I dont have to sacrifice my power output. Only time will tell.

I'll ask my daughter to take pix of my road bike and my TT bike so you can see the dif in seat/bar heights.

To choose to race TTs on a non-TT bike puts you at a distinct disadvantage if others are using TT bikes. But remember, a TT bike may make you a little faster initially, but ultimately (as Lance sayd) - its not about the bike. TTs are about shear guts and determination as you battle yourself and rise to your own challenge. Getting aero is not so much about getting fast (although that is the side effect) it is about reducing the wind resistance which is your biggest 'handicap'... even on a calm day.

As for getting faster before you deserve a TT bike - get one now... my averages for a 20km TT are around 31kph... to be up there with the top women in my club I would have to be doing 35-38kph... thats about a 75%-80% increase in my power output. Thats going to take me 2-3 years probably... Get the TT bike, it helps you focus and achieve your goals.

Kelowna, like Eden, I would not want to mess with my saddle on my road bike.
My TT bike's saddle is more forward and pointed slightly more down than my road bike - mainly because I am continuing to drop my handle bars and the leaning down nessecitates some accomodation in my seat.

missymaya

04-02-2007, 08:35 AM

These are some great tips for those of us who want to try a TT. Currently, I'm nearing the end of the school semester, so of course all the big projects are due too, so focusing on competition isn't at the top of my list. But, after the semester ends (in about 3 weeks, thank goodness) I want to give a TT a go. Here are a few questions that I have:
On a TT bike, what is the most aero position to be in (seat position, angle, etc)?
What's your starting position when starting a TT?
Reading all of this info really helps and I can't wait for the semester to end just so I can get started. Thank ya'll:)

Eden

04-02-2007, 08:50 AM

I can't speak to how to fit a tt bike - I had mine professionally fit... but I can talk about starting.

Most TT's you start out being held by a race official. You won't get the fancy starting ramp you see in the Pro races, but someone will stand behind you holding your saddle while you are completely clipped into the bike. This is not scarey! I promise they won't drop you and you won't fall over when let go! If you feel like you aren't being held up straight do ask the person holding to move you - they will be happy to do it. You want to start out with your less dominant leg a bit above the 3o'clock position (this is because you want your stronger leg to be the one pulling over the top for the best starting acceleration). If you have aerobars DON'T try to start out in them. Start out either in your drops or out on your cowhorns if you are set up that way. There will be a second official giving you a count - they'll ususally position you at about 30 seconds to go, and the official will give you the last 5 seconds count out loud and with his hand. When they say go, you will be let go and you'll want to get moving. Most people once they are moving (a few pedal strokes) will stand and get up to speed, then get into the aero bars.

For a lot of people the idea of being held sounds frightening, but remember these officials hold up big guys who are a lot heavier than you - they won't drop you. If you can find someone to practice with a few times it helps a lot , not only to alleviate any fears, but to get the feel of how to start off nice and strong too.

kelownagirl

04-02-2007, 08:08 PM

Anyone seen this site?

http://www.timetrialtraining.co.uk/P1AerobicBaseSchedules.htm

SheFly

04-03-2007, 04:53 AM

You want to start out with your less dominant leg a bit above the 3o'clock position (this is because you want your stronger leg to be the one pulling over the top for the best starting acceleration).

...

For a lot of people the idea of being held sounds frightening, but remember these officials hold up big guys who are a lot heavier than you - they won't drop you. If you can find someone to practice with a few times it helps a lot , not only to alleviate any fears, but to get the feel of how to start off nice and strong too.

Actually, I start with my dominant leg in about the 2 o'clock position so that my first pedal stroke is a full-power push to get me going. I think this is a personal choice, though.

And yes, being held at the start can be intimidating. As Eden says, however, they WILL NOT drop you! Hey - they can hold DH and I both clipped in on our tandem, and that's a lot of weight ;) .

SheFly

Eden

04-03-2007, 07:26 AM

Actually, I start with my dominant leg in about the 2 o'clock position so that my first pedal stroke is a full-power push to get me going. I think this is a personal choice, though.

I just looked in one of my books and indeed it says dominant foot forward. Someone else one once told me that you want your more powerful foot being the one coming over the top so that your second pedal stroke was the more powerful one, as you are not getting too much leverage out of that first push down and you are getting the momentum of that more powerful leg coming over the top. I'll have to experiment with both and see which I prefer - and which gets me started better.

RoadRaven

04-03-2007, 11:13 AM

Most people once they are moving (a few pedal strokes) will stand and get up to speed, then get into the aero bars.

Yup, this is what I do ... and I start with my dominant foot somewhere between 2 and 3 I think...

For a lot of people the idea of being held sounds frightening, but remember these officials hold up big guys who are a lot heavier than you - they won't drop you.

Last year in my first TT and the first time I was held, I weighed 110kg... he held me straight and true and it was all right.

Missy, you ask "what is the most aero position to be in"... I'm afraid all we can do is give you guidelines. Look at some TT races near you or on TV and you'll see people like to get low over the handle bars. The idea with yourself and your bike is to present the smallest surface to the air that you can.

For me I do this by lowering my handlebars, they are much lower than my road bike. My seat nose is also tipped down a fraction more than my road bike for comfort (but not too much or I would slide off).

The rest becomes technique - tuck your knees in, tuck your elbows in... and equipment - get bullhorns to reduce the profile of your handlebars, an aero front wheel will make a bigger difference than a rear one etc etc.

Mostly its about having a go and seeing what you can do. I had the benefit of my partner and sons to "fit" me to my bike. You might want to do what Eden did and get professionally fitted. Well worthwhile.

Kelowna, looking forward to checking out that link... haven't got time left this morning.

CR400

04-05-2007, 06:43 AM

Yeah, it felt a little strange the first time I ever had somebody hold me up to start a TT. It's kind of cool though becuase you get all clipped in and ready then power off the line. I stand too for the first few strokes. Oh also be sure you are in the gear you want to start in before you get to the line. My first TT I was not. I thought I was on my 52 ring to start and half way through I noticed I was on my 42. Needless to say I lost a lot of speed and time with that mistake. I also fell off the course into the gravel and lost time getting back onto the pavement. Of course it had to be a two inch drop and jump to get back on.

hellosunshine

04-08-2007, 06:12 AM

Eden

04-08-2007, 06:17 AM

you time trial on pavements???????

we time trial on dual carriageways and normal roads,the start anbd finish have to be less than 1/2 a mile apart so they are ususally out/back courses or circuits.

only pavements are in built up areas,well thats us in the uk.........

Vocabulary thing I think - here pavements are not the things that pedestrians walk on :D , pavement just refers to any road surface (asphalt, chip seal, concrete)

hellosunshine

04-09-2007, 12:57 PM

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

trousers-pants
curtains-drapes
garbage-rubbish

:)

and prob off topic.xxx

Eden

04-09-2007, 01:01 PM

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

trousers-pants
curtains-drapes
garbage-rubbish

:)

and prob off topic.xxx
:D :D :D

boot - trunk
crisps - chips
chips - fries
brolly - umbrella.....
(I've got my British vocab down pretty good..... )
so what if its OT.... the original post wasn't ;)

CR400

04-13-2007, 06:07 AM

Sorry Hellosunshine, I often forget how truely global the internet community is. I should have said asphalt to be correct. Although where I live most of our trails are paved with asphalt as well. So we can ride our road bikes on them, just dodge or take out walkers. Most of the TT I do are on a road course that are laps around area parks. So I have yet to do an out and back.

hellosunshine

04-14-2007, 03:22 AM

saftest one ive ever done in this country is 4 times around a disuced airfield,ace,but no wind protection!

due to traffic counts invariably sunday tt's have horrid early starts,some 5am.yuk.they are never held sat am but sat pm on some roads are allowed.midweek they tend to start about 7pm after the rush hour,thing is by then im "into"other things like work,i prefer morning racing,well owt(anything)after 9am is fab

RoadRaven

06-15-2007, 10:21 PM

Just purchased a used disc wheel last night (Hed superlight) and got a front wheel from ebay a while ago (Hed Jet 60), both tubulars.

Eden, you got this in Jan, and your TTs started in Feb and i have been meaning to ask ALL year how you have found your HED disc!?

RoadRaven

06-15-2007, 10:24 PM

Kelowna, like Eden, I would not want to mess with my saddle on my road bike.
My TT bike's saddle is more forward and pointed slightly more down than my road bike - mainly because I am continuing to drop my handle bars and the leaning down nessecitates some accomodation in my seat.

I have just posted pix of my RR bike and my TT bike if you want to see the difference in front end and seat angle...

Near the bottom of this page:
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=10176&page=4

Eden

06-16-2007, 12:14 AM

Eden, you got this in Jan, and your TTs started in Feb and i have been meaning to ask ALL year how you have found your HED disc!?

I haven't done a lot of TT'ing so far this year, so I've only used the disc 3 times. The last one was very windy and I was a little concerned about being blown about with the disc (it was a pretty seriously ugly wind - enough that peple were doing over 30 mph (48.3 kph) out, but only 12 mph (19.3 kph) back and I never felt like it was going to take me off the road or anything bad like that), but it was fine. It's hard to say, since really a lot has changed besides just the rear wheel, but it may have even helped since I did better than I expected. From what I understand, in a crosswind the disc can actually act like a sail and help you go forward faster. I'm not a really strong TT'er - middle of the pack at stage races usually - but I still got omnium points for being 11th out of a few over 30 some particpants and I beat some people that I generally consider to be stronger than I am. An omnium race here is a stage race that instead of using your total time, uses a points based on top finishes (1-11 in TT's and crits, 1-14 in the road race I think) in each stage - I actually prefer a regular stage race since its easier for me to make up time in a road race than it is to get points in TT's and crits. I've got another big stage race coming up next weekend that will include a TT, so another chance to get the TT bike and the disc out. Last year I muffed the TT in this race bad, by having my rear wheel skewer come open and the rim drag on the brake for the whole TT - so I really expect to do much better this year :rolleyes:

One thing that I would like to try to do - the speed sensor for the computer that came on the bike is positioned for the rear wheel, so I want to try to get a magnet onto the disc - I think I'll have to try to find something very small and epoxy it on. Right now I can only get cadence, which is OK - I can pace myself with hr and cadence, but I'd like to have speed as well. I guess I could move the sensor to the front fork, but its a funky big aero fork, so it might be hard to get it to stay put.

RoadRaven

06-16-2007, 12:49 AM

My partner and sons say epoxy you could use, but then you have no alternative if you want to take it off.

But what he and my son do with their HEDs is use a small round flat magnet, and tape over it with black electricians tape. Its the same stuff that they use to tape over the valve to make that part of the disc aero too.

I need to read the 'ominum' bits tomorrow - I'm too tired to quite get what you are saying.

I am glad you have had some races on the disc, I have yet to ride on a disc, but I do have some deep dish wheels (Grammo Vipers) I am going to ride for the first time tomorrow

I look forward to hearing about your stage racing next weekend... spesh the TT

RoadRaven

06-19-2007, 11:13 AM

Considering the ridiculous expense of TT booties, and the only fractions of seconds, or maybe a few seconds, that might save (since all that air around pedals is "dirty" anyway) I am wondering about cheap alternatives...

What about socks, for example? Or does the coarseness of the wool or weave defeat the purpose of wearing them over your shoes?

What about a lycra sleeve if I messed about and fasioned one on my sewing machine?

Do you gals think its worth the effort?

Eden

06-19-2007, 12:01 PM

What about a lycra sleeve if I messed about and fasioned one on my sewing machine?

Do you gals think its worth the effort?

Why not - I think the ones you buy are made of lycra - just sew it real small so that it fits nice and snug.
I think I've seen people use socks too - I have no idea if they are as effective.

RoadRaven

06-20-2007, 11:25 AM

Think I'll give it a go... the lycra... it'll have to wait til the study break though, am snowed under at work!

RoadRaven

07-08-2007, 10:47 AM

OK... This week is the week I try and make some TT booties (and mend my winter booties - plastic bags in my shoes are just NOT enough!)

But my question is about being "on the rivet" in a TT.

Watching the boys in the prologue (I LOVE this part of the TdF even though its only about 8km long) I noticed many were on the rivet... you know, sitting right forward on the nose of their seats.

Discussion with the family as we watch and its because you can potentially get more power for your push if you can sit a tad further forward.

Like a good girl I am sitting on the spin bike as I watch and TTing with them (for an hour or so of it) so I scoot forward to see how sitting on the rivet feels... and IMMEDIATELY scoot back...

There's this little matter of anatomy... we gals have a gap where guys dont, and that meant the nose of the seat felt like it was gonna go somewhere it wasn't intended. There's no way I could ride a TT for 40 minutes with that sensation!!!!

So... do gals... indeed, CAN gals... ride "on the rivet"? Do we need a special seat? Would tilting the seat down even more work? Is this a possible thing?

equus123

07-11-2007, 11:03 AM

one thing that i find interesting about that idea of sitting more forward on the saddle for more power - if that's the case then why don't they move the saddle more forward? i really don't see the purpose in sitting on the nose of the saddle if you could just shift it forward so that you're in the same spot but sitting on the normal saddle position. anybody else wonder about that too? it seems pretty "der!" to me. lol

i think i have a very special private area because i can't sit on ANY other saddle than my Terry CrMo cutout otherwise i'm ready to scream within 5 minutes. even though this is the only comfy saddle for me, i can't even scoot forward or else that hurts like crazy. i don't know WHAT my deal is. so when i change my road bike into TT mode (i only have 1 bike), i just shove the saddle all the way forward and tilt down slightly.

RoadRaven

07-11-2007, 11:52 AM

Hi there Equus... you're right... it is very logical to just move the seat forward.

However, the time-trial set-up is governed by strict UCI regs. So the boys in the Tour and indeed all other UCI sanctioned races MUST have the geometry "just so" or they will not be able to race.

So, you say, Raven rides in club races, she doesn't need to have her bike geometry "just so".

Well, my partner and sons ride in BikeNZ sanctioned races - which conform to UCI. Next year I will be entering some of these races too.

Therefore, even though most of our racing (every Saturday) is at club level, and of those races only about 10-15 per year (including Thursday evenings in Summer) are Time Trials, we set up our bikes according to UCI regs so that we can ride in whatever race we wish to without having to make adjustments to our bicycles.

Rules govern seat post angle/position of the nose of the seat... hence why male racers trying to get the most power possible sit "on the rivet" in time trials, and in power efforts during road/bunch race stages. They already have their seats as far forward as they can - but they want every millimetre they can make work for them.

I have not thought about this before when watching women race - and the few dvds I have of women's racing has not shown me women sitting "on the rivet". Surely there is a trick to it?

smilingcat

07-11-2007, 03:15 PM

I'm not convinced that going that forward really helps with power.

Too much of good thing isn't good. little bit of aspirin is good too much will kill you. And I wonder about what effective seat tube angle, or rather the position of the seat in reference to the BB will give you the most amount of power.

On a hill climb, if my body is pushed back a bit, I can get more power into the pedals at the top and at the bottom then if I were sitting in the regular spot. But for TT, I think I prefer to sit bit forward cause it feels like I can sustain the power output with high cadence. I guess only way to know is use a power tap and measure on a hill, flat, & TT rides.

My newest seat, jett130, has a nose that is curved downward so trying to "ride on the rivet" is less worrisome. Its like the seat is tilted down on the nose even though the seat is more or less level (slightly pointing down for me.) Mind you I don't exactly ride right on the nose even when I'm forward.

smilingcat

equus123

07-13-2007, 05:56 AM

equus123

07-13-2007, 06:01 AM

while on the topic of the phrase "on the rivet" - i learned where it's derived from yesterday while watching the Tour. for those who were curious as well...

"on the rivet" = back in the day when riders had leather saddles, they were anchored using rivets around the edges. some of these were placed on the nose so when riders slid forward on the saddle they were actually sitting on the rivets. hence the phrase was coined for whenever a rider is sitting forward like that. nifty! :)

RoadRaven

07-13-2007, 12:47 PM

Yup... on the rivet... it was a good explaination in yesterdays (or is that the day before's - confusing myself with time differences...) coverage.

I think being on the rivet is something that happens when the heat goes on in a race - like when the peloton lifts the pace, or near the end of a TT.

Gonna experiment a bit this weekend - haven't been able to get on the road this week due to weather/early sun sets.

I'd like to see if it gives me more power - remembering that, historically, much cycling technique is based on how it is for men...

RoadRaven

07-23-2007, 02:41 AM

Here... Cancellara's saddle from the prologue...

He has done away with the rivet altogether!

SOURCE:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/tech/index.php?id=/photos/2007/tech/features/tour_prologue_bikes2_07/cancellara_chopped_saddle

Eden

07-23-2007, 09:49 AM

I finally have a bit of what I consider to be a comparison between using and not using my disc/deep wheels on the TT bike.
So this weekend was the TT championship, its really the only long one around (unless you do triathalon) at 40K - most of the stand alone TT's around here are around 10 to 12K.
My hubby and I went out and pre rode the course the day before, since it was supposed to rain hard (ended up dry!) and we didn't want any suprises. The pre-ride I used my TT bike, but had my training wheels on it (Velocity Deep V's). Now we didn't do the whole ride at TT pace, but we did a few fast sections.
What I found was that I really noticed the disc when there was a cross wind. I've always heard that its actually an asset in a crosswind - unless of course its a really strong crosswind and blows you over...., since it acts like a sail - much like when a sailboat uses a crosswind to tack and go faster - and I really do think I could feel the extra boost. Doesn't do much for you in a direct headwind, but the course was really twisty so there were few sections going directly into the wind.
So I definitely think the disc works well, though it's not the lightest wheel available, for relatively flat courses its more of an asset than a hinderence. I wouldn't use it for anything hilly - mainly because of the weight, but also because its older and an 8 speed, fine on my TT bike on the flats and small rollers, but I would want something bigger than a 21 for real climbing ;)

SheFly

07-23-2007, 12:29 PM

I'm just catching up with this thread, so forgive me for being late to the party!

I definitely sit "on the rivet" while TT'ing. I ride a Fizik Arione saddle, and have to point the nose WAY down to be able to do this, but find that it works for me to get the power that I need. Apparently, given my past couple of weeks of TT results, it works.

Eden - thanks for the description on the disc wheels. Apparently I have a new pair of Zipps coming my way (I guess I have been a good girl :D ), and I will be anxious to compare them to the Ksyriums I am using now.

SheFly

RoadRaven

07-30-2007, 11:31 AM

Well, I haven't really had a chance to notice how I sit... I forget to take note and just ride.

Interesting, SheFly, to hear that you do and it is possible. Now the days are getting longer, I will be able to target some serious research time into this. Some seat/nose adjustment might be in need though - don't want to do what i did on the trainer again!!! :p

RoadRaven

11-21-2007, 08:54 AM

Well... on the first page of this thread... I posted a list of specific training rides I tried to do and weave into a fortnightly cycle...

Well, I have long since flagged that and have begun a new schedule about a month ago (post nationals where I was inspired on the TT day and wishing desparately I could join in)

I have decided to focus only on TT training and trust it will benefit my road racing too. TTs are what I love - so why on earth was I trying to train for everything!?

My week day rides are timebound as I work full time and travel (by car most days as I have to take children into town to school) is half an hour each way...

So my week is typically...

Sunday - 30-60km medium intensity ride

Monday - 30-60 minute low intensity ride after work (recovery after the weekend)

Tuesday - 60 minute min interval workout (10-20 mins to warm up, 10 mins to cool down)

Wednesday - rest or same as Monday

Thursday - hill reps on my aero bars about 45-60 minutes (10-20 mins to warm up, 10 mins to cool down)
Being on the aero bars as I climb is key - it requires a much greater power output, and power, after all, is what TTs are about.

Friday - no ride or a gentle 10-15km with my youngest son on the flat

Saturday - race... about 45 min warm up, then 25-40km race, then 15-30min cool down

I had a TT last weekend, and I believe the specific focus is helping. Big improvements (I got second in my grade - about to post a race report...)

I am anticipating having longer rides after the 17th December as that is when I go on leave for !!!!SIX WHOLE WEEKS!!!! so I will be able to really get race fit before some of the events I want to complete in late summer/autumn.

RoadRaven

02-02-2008, 07:02 PM

Pssst... I got an early (REALLY early) birthday pressie from my life partner - he really spoils me

Louis Garneau aero helmet... went for a 34km "test drive" today... sweeeeet...

Can't wait to use it in a TT. It fits tight on my head and has a little ratchet at the back to tighten/loosen it.
We shifted my speedo forward on the aeros so it sits between my wrists and I can glance down without moving my head.
The tail snugs in between my shoulder blades so I can just feel it which will help ensure I keep my head in the right place and don't do the "dipping" thing which negates the use of an aero helmet at all.

Very excited, but my next TT isn't til the 14th...

I did a 10km burst over rolling hills which I did in 24:45mins in January. Today, under similar weather conditions I did it in 23:50mins. Not sure how much was the aero helmet, and how much was the psycholgy of feeling fast in a fast hat, but 55seconds over 10kms is quite a difference
:)

Starfish

02-02-2008, 07:51 PM

Not sure how much was the aero helmet, and how much was the psycholgy of feeling fast in a fast hat, but 55seconds over 10kms is quite a difference :)

whatever works... :p;)

SheFly

02-04-2008, 05:44 AM

An aero helmet is one of the key pieces of equipment to help make you faster in a TT. I now have all the fancy-schmancy gear, but the helmet and the aero bars are the things I can point to that really made a difference (besides training ;)).

Nice bday gift for sure, and the LGs are nice - that's what I have too!

SheFly

RoadRaven

02-05-2008, 09:34 AM

Thanks for the smiley faces Starfish :p I hope it works... maybe its just a $300 way of making me think I'm fast ;) as well as psyching out those near me in ability... but I do still really like my fancy new hat!

SheFly, I have read so much about aero helmets, and of course the key thing is holding your head still in the best position for aerodynamics - and it seems so many people move their head about it negates any benefits. I have been working hard on keeping my head still and low into my shoulders whenever I train for, or complete, a time trial, so I hope I can "do the right thing".

My partner and some of his training partners as well as some of the LBS guys reckon a TT suit makes you faster than an aero helmet... I dunno... I think I would feel so uncomfortable in a TT suit I would slow myself down because I wouldn't be focused.

I do wear a pocketless snug jersey, and I don't wear gloves, so hopefully that gives me the second or three a TT suit might afford over 18-20kms...

7 days til I get to test my LG in a club TT... am looking forward to it!

What colour is your LG, She Fly? Mine is the silver one - it matches my TT bike beautifully
:)

Eden

02-05-2008, 10:08 AM

My partner and some of his training partners as well as some of the LBS guys reckon a TT suit makes you faster than an aero helmet... I dunno... I think I would feel so uncomfortable in a TT suit I would slow myself down because I wouldn't be focused.

At a bike race everyone is so focused on themselves no one has the time to worry about how everyone else looks in their skin suits (unless you show up in a full body hot pink one :p ) that said, I think the aero helmet will make a bigger difference than a skin suit...
In a couple weeks I'll finally get to try mine out! Hopefully this year I'll have stronger legs to match too :D (I have my long awaited Giro - yeah!)

RoadRaven

02-05-2008, 10:52 AM

I know that everyone is focused on themselves... but the problem would be I would be so focused on myself that I would worry about distracting others from their focus. I am sooooo considerate!
hahahaha...

So, seriously, what date for your next TT Eden, if its only a few weeks away?

And have you had much of a chance to train on your disc? I have decided I don't like disc wheels... they are heavy if the course has any slight hills (and you know me by now... I am not so fast on hills (still working on it...)

I have still not dropped enough in weight to use my last year's birthday pressie - Grammo Vipers (which have a 90kg weight restriction on them) - deep dish wheels and so sweet to look at. But I use my partners tri-spokes and he uses my front Viper with his Zip on the back... so we are both happy.

Looking forward to hearing about it - don't forget to post a race report please... there aren't many of us here that TT and although I can read TT reports on other boards they are usually by males and their speeds are so far from what I can achieve and the way they report is somehow, intangiably, different to the way our reports are written here...

Eden

02-05-2008, 11:20 AM

First race of the year, coming right up on Feb 24th.
It's a shortie - 9 mile (14.5 km) flat TT - so really it might be too short to really see much of a quantitative difference from the helmet... I did do the same course last year (hopefully I have the results somewhere so I can compare this year to last)

I don't really train on the disc - its a tubular, so its a real PITA to change the tires... I'd hate to be training on it and get a flat, so if I train on the TT bike I do it with regular wheels. The disc is a bit heavy, but I think on a flatish course its well worth it. Rolling is OK, but for very hilly I'd leave it off. I use my road bike for hillclimb TT's - its just lighter all around and you don't get going fast enough to take advantage of aerogear anyway on a hillclimb.

I'm going to talk you into a skinsuit someday :D I don't know how much of a difference it really makes, but d*mn it feels good (fast) to wear one...

RoadRaven

02-08-2008, 10:13 AM

Hey there Eden - I didn't mean training all the time on the disc, rather just trying is out in different winds to see how it feels.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear in what I was asking.
You def wanna make tubbies last asap - and never want to get a flattie in a race!

I have regular wheels to train on too - now I am used to them, the tri-spokes only go for actual TTs.

*ignores comment about skin suits*
lahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlahlah.....

Starfish

02-09-2008, 04:11 PM

Please forgive me if this has been asked. I tried searching, but it didn't get me what I was after...

What kind of HRs do you women tend to average when you are either training for or racing in a time trial of, say, 10 miles?

I know it will vary...that each person's lactate threshold and fitness are different, etc, and everyone's a different age, etc. I'm just curious.

I just spent about 2 hours on a ride with an average HR of 154 (about 85% of max) and lots of longish stretches at about 164 (about 91% of max). I got in some intervals close to max on hills.

I found myself wondering what kind of HR I would be shooting for holding onto for, say 10 miles, if I attempted a beginner's time trial?

Eden

02-09-2008, 07:22 PM

I shoot for right around or just above my LT.

RoadRaven

02-09-2008, 09:49 PM

Yup... I'm like Eden... try and lurk at or above my LT.

Typical HR pattern in a TT as follows...

In a TT I usually leave with such a rush of adrenilin that my HR seems to spike up to about 168-175 which is approaching my max, but after about 500 metres it settles and I then I wind myself up til it is sitting on 156-158bpm
158bpm is my lactate threshold as measured in a sports lab in 2007.

At the turn-around, or the half-way point in distance, I wind myself up more. I know I can sustain a good power output several beats above my LT for about 10km or 18mins and if my body is responding well I try to keep my HR at 162-165 for the last half of the course.

In the last 2kms I try to lift the speed/power output more and my HR often sits at about 168bpm for the last 1km of the ride - thats 10beats above my LT.

My distances for TT are between 18km and 25km long. 18-20km TTs are ideal for me, but I am still having trouble pacing myself over 25km... that extra 5km makes a significant difference.

Starfish

02-09-2008, 10:34 PM

Eden

02-10-2008, 07:13 AM

So, RR, you had your LT tested in a lab...how about the rest of you?

I feel very sketchy about setting my zones. I tend to use a combination of percentages I have read about it training books, the number I see on the monitor during really hard efforts when I'm gasping for breath (which I assume to be near my max), and sort of a perception of where I am regarding HR when I do rides that leave me pretty sore after.

Have any of you in Seattle been tested, and if so, where?

Is LT the same regardless of type of exertion...such as flat TT vs. climbing?

I feel like I am always guessing about to set my HRs. This has been bugging me for awhile.

I have been tested. (at Real Rehab http://www.realrehab.com/pages/services_summary.php#metabolic) I was though, not particularly suprised at what my LT is, as I had been racing for a year before I did the testing and I knew what type of output I could sustain for longer periods without burning myself out completely (which basically is your LT) What I had been naturally TT'ing at was my LT.

I think you may be underestimating your max. VT (ventilatory theshold - when you start gasping) can have nothing to do with LT or Max HR. I reach my VT (breathing hard enough that I cannot talk in full sentences) somewhere in my hr zone 4 - probably around 85% of my max and have definitly hit it at 90% of max. I don't think you nessessarily need to have a whole fancy VO2 test just to get your max hr though - there are self tests you can do on a trainer. I don't have the time to look it up right now, but I have a book with a good test in it (I got an accurate measurment from this). When I get back this afternoon I'll look it up for you. When you really hit your max, you'll probably know - you'll want to fall over or throw up.... The test I have is a bit more gentle - it's a submaximal test, but it still works.

I personaly do find that I can hold a higher hr on a hillclimb TT than on a flat one - typically 5-7 hr beats higher.

mudmucker

02-10-2008, 07:33 AM

Starfish, I also have a couple of self-tests. PM me if you want me to send them to you. The ones I have are from Chris Carmichaels's Food for Fitness book. With his method, he has the person do some specific high intensity cycling (or running) sequences and uses average heart rate to determine heart rate intensities that correspond to training different energy systems. He uses AHR because they're indicative of a true response to the entire duration of the effort.

If Eden has seen this one, she may be able make more of a comment on as a comparison of other self-tests.

Starfish

02-10-2008, 08:24 AM

Thanks, you two. I actually have the Carmichael book The Ultimate Ride, and he describes doing 2 x 8 minute (or 3 mile) efforts and taking the average of those two...using that rather than actual max HR. I did that one a year or two ago, and I always wondered if I was using a high enough number for setting my zones.

I mention the gasping part because I seem to have a tough time, either on the trainer or in spin class, pushing myself to what I think my actual max might be. Whereas when I am out on the bike on a really hard, steep hill, it is all I can do to keep from falling over and it seems like my lungs will just burst if I keep trying to get more air in.

I'm feeling very insecure about my HRs and setting the zones. Sometimes I feel like I'm working too hard for a given workout, and others I doubt that I'm working hard enough.

Thanks for your help.

mudmucker

02-10-2008, 11:35 AM

He calls it the CTS (Carmichael Training System) field test and I'm sure it's the same. Yes it's 2x8's or a 3-mile and taking the average. He says (from empirical data) that this average is usually just slightly above lactate threshold and claims it is very close to a person's lab tested lactate threshold. The information in your book is probably similar. What I like about the Food for Fitness book is that he explains how to eat, the way fuel usage changes as intensity increases and helps you to apply it to your own training and nutrition. He ties this all in, including nutrition, with periodization.

In answer to your PM, I have found that it was a little harder to find my "spot" in the very beginning of the season when I did the test. I don't train to race and I typically don't train regularly for biking come late fall through early winter but just do other things. So in early spring when I start up, it it takes a few runs, like maybe the first 5-7 rides to get that groove back with bike fitness. It's then after that the number that I achieve from the test actually works out well. I keep a close eye on it and if my AHR is higher along with a difficult perceived effort for a particular ride I feel it later in terms of fatigue and/or recovery so I tend to trust it.

Then of course there are those days riding when your body revolts and doesn't want to do things as well as the day before. Or I can leave feeling really crappy and have a great ride. In these instances I do trust the number and sort of hold to it. If I'm doing hill intervals I ignore everything and go by how I'm feeling. I'm usually surprised how my body responds and I see improvement by sometimes, 2 rides later.

As an athelete I know my body well though. So I'm of the opinion that I'd ignore what others say about you working hard enough.

Eden

02-10-2008, 01:57 PM

I mention the gasping part because I seem to have a tough time, either on the trainer or in spin class, pushing myself to what I think my actual max might be. Whereas when I am out on the bike on a really hard, steep hill, it is all I can do to keep from falling over and it seems like my lungs will just burst if I keep trying to get more air in.

I think you're not alone - I (and many others) find that indoors, on a trainer, feels much harder than the same effort outside. You've also been training for a couple of years now, and as you get more fit, it becomes harder and harder to reach your actual max.

Starfish

02-10-2008, 02:10 PM

it becomes harder and harder to reach your actual max.

On some weekend that you have scheduled for recovery, if you would like to come over and pace me up Hurricane Ridge, I'm guessing I would find it pretty fast. :p I could buy you and your hubby a beer after, though. :D

Seriously, I think I need to start riding with people. I dread it 'cause I'm so slow.

OK, I guess this is getting OT for time trialing. Thank you for all your info! :)

Starfish

02-10-2008, 02:16 PM

I think you may be underestimating your max. VT (ventilatory theshold - when you start gasping) can have nothing to do with LT or Max HR.

How important, then, is it to know one's max? Is the LT the more important thing to use when training, given that we want to increase it over time?

Eden

02-10-2008, 03:52 PM

How important, then, is it to know one's max? Is the LT the more important thing to use when training, given that we want to increase it over time?

If you are using hr to train, your zones are based off of your max, so that does set the tenor for all of your training. If you are a little off it might not affect your training so much, but if you are off by a lot you can be working too hard or too easy (depending on which way you are off of course). In general your max is your max, its genetically set and really does not affect how fit you can become. LT is basically the percentage of your max that you can sustain and LT is trainable, so you can raise it. It is desirable to have your LT as close to your max as possible.

Knowing your measured LT is useful in a TT for pacing, but I think if you do a few you get to be able to feel it. They don't even have to be organized - just pick a stretch of road that you can go for 10 or 12 Km on without really stopping - you can have a turn around, most TT's have a turn around point midway, and ride as fast as you can while maintaining a relatively steady pace. If your speed falls significantly before you are finished, you've likely exceeded your LT. Like mudmucker said, some days you might not even be able to reach it without burning out, so listening to your body is important too.

Now of course in a competitive TT, when you get close enough to the finish you actually want to exceed your LT and try to time it so that you reach the end at just the point where you have nothing left. You don't want to go too early and peter off before the finish or go too late and still have steam after you cross the line. Figuring out that sweet spot is a lot harder.

As far as climbing Hurricane Ridge - Its a great ride and I do want to come and do it again some time - though I'm generally not allowed to go out and climb mountains on my rest days :D. There's actually a more weekend days this year without races than there have been in the past, so I might be able (urrrr - allowed....) to do it again this summer - and my A races are both climbing races, so I expect to have some longer climb workouts. If we decide to head your way I'll drop you a line when we make our plans.

Starfish

02-10-2008, 05:27 PM

I'm generally not allowed to go out and climb mountains on my rest days

You would if you were doing it to pace me without dropping me! ;):D LOL

Anyhow, thanks you two...this is very helpful in giving me a handle on these things. I'm wondering if I should make an appt at Real Rehab for the HR stuff and for my body fat. Would be fun to get tested for both now, and again in, say, October.

LainiePants

02-10-2008, 07:56 PM

Great thread. I too am interested in giving TTs a try. I actually have one in mind that's two weeks from now. I haven't really been training too much over the last couple months, and definitely not for a TT, but I figure it couldn't hurt to try. Plus it will be a good chance to race myself into shape ;) Need to figure out the LT though. I'm guessing it's aroung 170. (does that sound too high?) Think I may have to tryout the Carmichael test and see how it goes.

Starfish, I totally understand your frustration with figuring out HR zones. Don't know for sure what my max HR is, though I think it's probably true that it varies with activity. Back when i used to run (last year) I got my HR up to 195. But since then on the bike I've only ever reached 187. Though i suppose it's next to impossible to ever reach one's true HRmax anyway, right? Maybe in a life or death situation...

Starfish

02-10-2008, 10:10 PM

Though i suppose it's next to impossible to ever reach one's true HRmax anyway, right? Maybe in a life or death situation...

I don't know...when I was in my teens, some of the swim team workouts came mighty close for me, I think.

aicabsolut

04-02-2008, 10:56 AM

Yeah, you can hit it, but it's hard.

Don't be surprised about a run/bike HR difference. Generally, for the same level of perceived exertion, HR will always be higher running than cycling. Just because.

Starfish, I aim for a TT heart rate between 175-187. A lot of that depends on the terrain and temperature. For longer TTs where I'd do less warmup, I'd be on the upper end for the first part until I essentially completed my warmup.

I'm going a bit O/T here and am going to talk about DOING TTs instead of doing interval training, LT training, or whatever in preparation for them. The training I think is best has a lot to do with strategy and mental toughness.

I'm a pretty good time trialist and getting better at it all the time. I don't train for time trials, though, and I don't think I need to, personally, unless you count attacking or sitting on the front to set the pace in a race practice as I turn on the suffering :p.

Time trials are more mental than anything. Other than that, you've just got to be fit and have a short recovery time. That way you can "recover" without taking it easy. Short hills out of the wind or some downhill sections will feel like recovery even though you're still going FAST. It helps me to switch up my cadence and gearing sometimes. Get in a strong rhythm for a long section and then change it up when terrain changes to soft pedal a bitwhile still keeping the pace up. In my last time trial, my speed vs elevation graph shows that I accelerated up most of the hills just because it would be windy on descents at the bottom between rollers, so by changing things up, I would really hit the hill and slow down but steadily increase my pace the whole way up. Sometimes that would mean spinning 115rpms by the top, where I'd be ready to shift into harder gears and grind away.

Generally, being a good soloist means that the flatter TTs will be better for you, because you can suffer in the wind alone harder and longer than most. However, if you've got a good soloist mentality and focus, even hillier terrain will still work for you, because some people would need someone to chase to stay focused or to push themselves harder. Good soloists also will excel the longer the TT as more of the competition gets shelled. But how do you get to become a better soloist?

Train by yourself with your computer and heart rate monitor. Get an idea for climbing zones and flat zones where you are working hard but can go forever. Experiment with your aero positioning, so ride in your TT setup alone if you have one. Pay attention to what you think is your comfortable cadence and then on the same terrain, see what happens to your speed if you change the gears up one cog in either direction. After noting any speed changes, how sustainable is it to be in whichever gear makes you go faster (this could be the easier gear)--either by making you tired or your ability to keep focused on a faster cadence.

Pay attention to your face and body and breathing. Do not spend any extra energy tightening your shoulders, grimacing, or gasping. Sometimes, I have to just tell myself to relax, take a deep breath, and shake my head. The grimace is for the final push ;). You must look relaxed when you pass your minute-man.

Pay attention to your hydration and calorie needs and get used to eating and drinking under that kind of stress if the TT is going to be long enough. Do this without taking much of a break, if any. Do not sit up. Do not wait too long so that you consume too much and then feel sick when tucked.

Finally, break up the TT into manageable chunks. I prefer 4ths. For me, it goes something like this: Go go go the first 1/4. Then tell myself I have to keep this up till the 1/2. I'm not even 1/2 way, I can't feel like dying yet. Sometime from 1/2 to 3/4, depending on mileage, I know I will start to lose focus. I may have gotten re-warmed up by this point and am feeling pretty good. I will be mindful of the terrain on the last 1/4 and whether I can see my minute man yet. This is where I have to work more on keeping myself in the game mentally. I watch my speed and cadence even more. I pay more attention to whether my body is relaxed. I do not let up if I can help it, but I try to maximize recovery in those places I mentioned earlier. Then in the last 1/4, it's time to really suffer. At about 2.5km to go, maximum effort. And then from 500 meters all reserves are spent with any possible remaining sprint kicking in at 200 meters.

Starfish

04-03-2008, 07:14 AM

AicaB, thanks. That is all quite interesting and helpful to read.

I was talking to my coach, and I am thinking of switching up my focus this year because of ALL the snow (and now more gravel and sand) in our hills, as well as the possibility that our one mountain for sustained climbing might get shut down to bikes for road work.

Kinda thinking this might be the year of working on power in the flats.

RoadRaven

04-28-2008, 02:37 AM

Great thread. I too am interested in giving TTs a try. I actually have one in mind that's two weeks from now...

So didja? didja? didja?
Have I missed a race report on this? Or did you not get a chance, Lanie?

Though i suppose it's next to impossible to ever reach one's true HRmax anyway, right? Maybe in a life or death situation...

When you want to throw up, you are almost at you maxHR. My understanding is that when you do throw up, you are there :p

Pay attention to your face and body and breathing. Do not spend any extra energy tightening your shoulders, grimacing, or gasping. Sometimes, I have to just tell myself to relax, take a deep breath, and shake my head. The grimace is for the final push . You must look relaxed when you pass your minute-man.

This is so important, I will just stress it again too.
Not only are you more effective if your muscles are "relaxing" into the effort (as opposed to tensing themselves into ineffectiveness) but the pschological advantage over your minute-man and whoever else you may pass is huge. Think about how easy Lance Armstrong made almost every ride look, even though we all knew he must be suffering.

And good advice about breaking the TT into chunks. Ride the course if you can. Know the distances. I know the first quarter landmark and I have a time-goal in my head for the half-way/turn-around.
I also know the landmark 5km out from the finish line, and 2km out and 1km out. I use these last landmarks to up my power output - even though I think I am giving it everything, I can usually find a little bit more...