wheel bearings

[mimitabby]

Deb, or whoever else has a clue here;
I took my bianchi into the shop yesterday because I understand that i have a dried out (or loose, or something) set of bearings in my front wheel. They are going to rebuild it.
My question is, if my front wheel is old enough to need this done, why would the rear wheel be "fine" the guy checked it (took it off the bike even) and said that only the front one needed the work. Seems to me it is as old as the front one is!

thanks
Mimi

[Grog]

Are your hubs scealed?

If not, I've heard this job should be done very year or so for riders who ride a lot, especially if they ride in the rain.

If they're scealed, I have no idea how often they should be re-greased, and if someone can tell me I'd love it!!

[mimitabby]

I don't know if they are sealed or not, do not know how to tell. You can't SEE any bearings, so maybe they are sealed?

[DebW]

Mimi, please let us know if the bearings are sealed or not. If they are sealed, they will eventually go bad and the bearing cartridge will need to be replaced. But a cartridge should be good for at least several years. If they are not sealed, ie. you have servicable bearings, then they need to be repacked at least annually with new grease. Servicable bearings also need to be adjusted so that the cones, bearings, and cups fit together with the optimal clearance - too tight and the bearings don't roll freely, too loose and the rim can wobble side to side causing poor performance and hub wear. Riding on a loose hub would also permit more water entry and contamination and allow the grease to be washed out. So perhaps your front cones were loose and your rear ones properly adjusted. If you do have servicable hubs on this bike and neither have been serviced in over a year, you might want to ask the mechanic to repack both hubs just because. When he said the rear one was OK, did he mean is was as smooth as if it has just been repacked and adjusted, or not binding and not loose and not horribly gritty? Different mechanics could have different standards here, and different standards for their own bike vs someone else's. Or he could want to save you money and only do them if they are really bad vs giving you optimal performance and maximum hub life.

If you really care about your bike, you should be making the decision on when to service your bearings and keeping track of their condition. You should be feeling your hubs periodically - once a month would be about right to see that they are in proper adjustment and adequately greased. When you get your bike back, Mimi, you can assume that your hubs are well greased and adjusted. So get used to what they feel like at that point and monitor for changes in the future. Here are some ways to check out your hubs:

1) with the wheel on the bike, grab the rim and try to move it side-to-side relative to the frame. Do this at 2 or 3 places along the rim. Any movement at all means the cones are too loose and should be adjusted before you ride the bike again.

2) hold the wheel off the ground and give it a spin. It should spin for quite a long time before slowing down very much. This is somewhat subjective, but if you do this often you should notice a difference when the grease gets old or contaminated or washed out.

3) take the wheel off the bike and turn the axle/cone between your thumb and index finger. It should feel very smooth and non-binding. If it feels gritty or doesn't turn freely or has a "washed out" feeling, it needs service.

4) you can also hear your bearings by putting your ear against the rim and turning the axle (don't know if this works with fancy fiber spokes, but steel spokes will transmit sound and vibration to the rim). Try it if you like, but not sure if this is something you can teach someone over the internet.

[mimitabby]

Mimi, please let us know if the bearings are sealed or not. If they are sealed, they will eventually go bad and the bearing cartridge will need to be replaced. But a cartridge should be good for at least several years. If they are not sealed, ie. you have servicable bearings, then they need to be repacked at least annually with new grease. Servicable bearings also need to be adjusted so that the cones, bearings, and cups fit together with the optimal clearance - too tight and the bearings don't roll freely, too loose and the rim can wobble side to side causing poor performance and hub wear. Riding on a loose hub would also permit more water entry and contamination and allow the grease to be washed out. So perhaps your front cones were loose and your rear ones properly adjusted. If you do have servicable hubs on this bike and neither have been serviced in over a year, you might want to ask the mechanic to repack both hubs just because. When he said the rear one was OK, did he mean is was as smooth as if it has just been repacked and adjusted, or not binding and not loose and not horribly gritty? Different mechanics could have different standards here, and different standards for their own bike vs someone else's. Or he could want to save you money and only do them if they are really bad vs giving you optimal performance and maximum hub life.

If you really care about your bike, you should be making the decision on when to service your bearings and keeping track of their condition. You should be feeling your hubs periodically - once a month would be about right to see that they are in proper adjustment and adequately greased. When you get your bike back, Mimi, you can assume that your hubs are well greased and adjusted. So get used to what they feel like at that point and monitor for changes in the future. Here are some ways to check out your hubs:

1) with the wheel on the bike, grab the rim and try to move it side-to-side relative to the frame. Do this at 2 or 3 places along the rim. Any movement at all means the cones are too loose and should be adjusted before you ride the bike again.

2) hold the wheel off the ground and give it a spin. It should spin for quite a long time before slowing down very much. This is somewhat subjective, but if you do this often you should notice a difference when the grease gets old or contaminated or washed out.

3) take the wheel off the bike and turn the axle/cone between your thumb and index finger. It should feel very smooth and non-binding. If it feels gritty or doesn't turn freely or has a "washed out" feeling, it needs service.

4) you can also hear your bearings by putting your ear against the rim and turning the axle (don't know if this works with fancy fiber spokes, but steel spokes will transmit sound and vibration to the rim). Try it if you like, but not sure if this is something you can teach someone over the internet.

Deb, it's my Bianchi, they are definitely serviceable bearings. !
thanks! (again the problem was definition and ignorance on my part)
he will probably rebuild them if the bearings need replaced. While i was there the (young) mechanic did all of these things that you suggested (except the ear against the rim) and that's why he decided that only the front one needed work.

That's why i was asking, why would the front one need work but not the back one? they've both been rolling the same amount of time!

From your answer, I can see that i need to call him this morning and tell him i want them both repacked, not just the front, THANKS!

[Grog]

Deb: so what does this mean for non-serviceable, scealed hubs? If they were built okay to begin with, they'll be fine for ever? Never need to be reopened?

[mimitabby]

let me hazard this one.
It means when they wear out you have to buy new ones.

That's one of the beauties of campy components, they are rebuildable. When one small part wears out, you don't have to throw the thing away.

[DebW]

Deb: so what does this mean for non-serviceable, scealed hubs? If they were built okay to begin with, they'll be fine for ever? Never need to be reopened?

They won't be fine forever. But when they go bad, instead of removing the ball bearings and adding fresh grease, you remove a bearing cartridge and replace it. Bad bearing cartridges feel really bad.

[Grog]

They won't be fine forever. But when they go bad, instead of removing the ball bearings and adding fresh grease, you remove a bearing cartridge and replace it. Bad bearing cartridges feel really bad.

So what would be the expected lifespan of a bearing cartridge?

[DebW]

So what would be the expected lifespan of a bearing cartridge?

I don't have alot of experience with them, but I think they should last several years, maybe 3-5 years or more. Maybe others have some direct experience.

[Grog]

I don't have alot of experience with them, but I think they should last several years, maybe 3-5 years or more. Maybe others have some direct experience.

Thanks Deb for the precious info.

Mine are a cause of no problem so I'll leave it at that!

[DebW]

I do have a set of cheap Performance sealed bearing hubs. They've been used mostly for commuting off and on over the last 15 years and they still feel super smooth. 3-5 years is probably a low estimate even for someone who puts lots of miles on their wheels. The good thing about the cartridges is that when they go bad, they won't damage any other part of the hub. If you ignore a servicable hub long enough for the bearings to get pitted, it will pit the bearing surface of the hub body, and then the whole hub needs to be replaced.

[mimitabby]

To my everlasting relief, the older gentleman at the LBS is working on my bike. He called me last night and told me the bearings were great but the cones were shot. He does not have campy parts, would i find another shop that does? (he could order them but would have to buy a dozen or more... etc)

The whole reason I took my bike to him is that he is easy to get to and a great mechanic. Sigh.. now i have to go to ANOTHER LBS and get the parts and bring them back to him. DH said. Well, you know he's not a Bianchi dealer... argh!! (good old DH gets another I told you so)
I thought
good mechanic=good mechanic. RIGHT?

I also told him, "if the front cones are shot, since the rear wheel is as old as the front wheel, maybe you could look at it too?"
he said, "yes, that's a good idea"

[DebW]

Mimi,

Yup, that's why you repack your hubs periodically or at the first sign of non-smoothness - so you don't have to replace parts. The cones go first, then they will wear pits into the bearings, then the bearing will wear pits into the cup surface of the hub body. If the hub body gets damaged, you have to replace the whole hub.

You might be able to mail order some cones if you can't find them locally. This place looscrews.com (http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi?c=Hub&sc=Cones&tc=Campy%20Front&id=93045468602) has a few Campy cones. I've also gotten brand new Campy cones on eBay.

[mimitabby]

Mimi,

Yup, that's why you repack your hubs periodically or at the first sign of non-smoothness - so you don't have to replace parts. The cones go first, then they will wear pits into the bearings, then the bearing will wear pits into the cup surface of the hub body. If the hub body gets damaged, you have to replace the whole hub.

You might be able to mail order some cones if you can't find them locally. This place looscrews.com (http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi?c=Hub&sc=Cones&tc=Campy%20Front&id=93045468602) has a few Campy cones. I've also gotten brand new Campy cones on eBay.

Now for the evil question. how do I know what kind of cones I need?
(this is why i am probably going to have to hand carry the old parts to the LBS in the most congested part of the city on Sunday)

[DebW]

Do you know the hub model (Record, Super Record, Chorus, etc) and the year it was made? Many Campy hub models share the same cone dimensions, so they're not too hard to find. Also, I believe you will find engraved on the flat outer surface of the cones some numbers which will specify a diameter (inner and/or outer, not sure if both) and a tpi (threads per inch). If it's says Campy and matches those numbers, you should be good. Also a good idea to take the axle with you to be sure the threads match.

[mimitabby]

thanks for the suggestions, Deb, I do know it's a 2002 veloce,
and i have tons of specs for the bike but (sorry) i have no idea which are for the wheels. I will cut and paste here:

This bike has a great steel ride and has all
italian campy components. The bike is currently for sale on ebay
please go the following address to bid! The following is a list of the
components on the bike: Type: 18/27-speed road Size: 49 Colors:
Celeste; Dark Blue/ Yellow Frame: Bianchi Reparto Corse SL Chromo
Lite: Double-butted chrome-moly steel alloy, TIG-welded and
heat-treated. MegaPro down tube with variable section; ZFS (Zero-Flex
Stay) rear-triangle design. Vertical dropouts. Fork: Bianchi carbon,
CrMo steerer Headset: YST G-Force Threadless Bottom Bracket:
Campagnolo Veloce cartridge, 111mm Handlebars: Salsa short and shallow
Stem: ITM Forged, 90-degree on 27-speed Crankset: Campagnolo Veloce,
30/42/52 Chain: Shimano Hubset: Campagnolo Veloce Spokes: Stainless,
double-butted Rims: Mavic CXP-21, 32 Saddle: Bontrager Tires: blue
verestein fortezza tires F. Derailleur: Campagnolo Centaur R.
Derailleur Campagnolo Veloce, 9-spd Shift Levers: Campagnolo Veloce
ErgoPower Casssette: Campagnolo Veloce, 13-26, 9-spd Brakes/Levers:
Campagnolo Veloce; Veloce ErgoPower levers Seatpost: Bianchi alloy,
27.2mm Grips/Other: cork grip with specialized gel inserts

[DebW]

The only relevant line is:

Hubset: Campagnolo Veloce

If the bike is an '02, you probably have '02 hubs, though perhaps they could be '01.

Here are the '02 Veloce front cones:

Campagnolo New style '02-'03 Veloce ,Mirage front cone
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HU407Z71-Campagnolo+Melocemirage+Front+Cone.aspx

Other Veloce front cones that also fit Chorus, Athena, and Mirage.

Campagnolo Front Cone CH/AT/VL/MI (before '02?)
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HU407Z72-Campagnolo+Front+Cone+Chatvlmi.aspx

The pictures look like perhaps the wrench flats are a different shape before '02, but that may just be perspective. Compare carefully with the old ones.

[mimitabby]

that sounds good. so if they don't have veloce in stock, they might have the better ones for just a few dollars more.]

Thanks Deb!

[DebW]

The part number is FH-VL004 (Veloce front cones 2002-2003)
http://www.smartbikeparts.com/search_details.php?itm=HU9801&PHPSESSID=9421c8175df1f65fc361b7e48b5746b2

The 2001 Veloce front cones would be 20-HB-CH004
http://smartbikeparts.com/search_details.php?itm=HU9790

Looks like they changed the design between '01 and '02, with '01 Veloce cones being compatible with Chorus, Athena, and Mirage, and '02 Veloce being compatible only with Mirage because Chorus went to sealed bearings in '02. If the '01 Chorus and the '02 Veloce cones are the same dimensions, buy the better Chorus cones.

[mimitabby]

thanks, Deb I'm printing it out.

[mimitabby]

I have the cones now, you can see where they are pitted and worn all along
the curved neck part.

I called the fancy bike shop and they are confident that they have them in stock.
It's too bad, i wanted to give the little guy my business, but i didnt expect to have to get the parts for him too!
He checked the back and said the back wheel is sealed but the bearings are in great shape.

[mimitabby]

well, confidence is unfortunately not enough to get the job done

they do not have the stupid wheel cones that i need for my bianchi so THEY have to order them. The wheel cones did not look like either picture that you
sent m to, Deb, (the same two he had in HIS catalog) he called Campagnolo and they said "oh, yeah, those ancient things" they'll order them
That means at least 3 more visits to LBS's before i get my bike back.

an interesting aside. when the mechanic looked at the damage to my cones he said it was probably because the hub was originally too tight. so what does THAT mean?

owell

[DebW]

an interesting aside. when the mechanic looked at the damage to my cones he said it was probably because the hub was originally too tight. so what does THAT mean?


I wasn't aware that cone damage looks different from a hub being too tight vs too loose vs lack of grease vs grit contamination. The only cone damage I've seen is small pits in the bearing track (the circular wear line where the bearings roll). Probably the whole bearing track wears rapidly if the cones are too tight.

When a hub is put together, the cones are screwed in on the axle until they are holding the ball bearings in place between hub cup surface and cone. Then lock nuts are tightened against the cones with a keyed washer in between to keep them in that position (not as simple as it sounds because tightening the lock nut moves the cone). The tightness of the cones is critical - too loose and the hub and rim can wobble relative to the bike frame, too tight and the wheel doesn't turn freely. The correct tolerance also allows the grease to coat the balls effectively and avoid metal-to-metal wear. After a hub is repacked, it should be checked after a couple hundred miles to see that the cones still have the proper tightness - sometimes they loosen a bit or feel different after the grease has broken in.