LBS rant (SadieKate, please read)

[indysteel]

This is kind of long, so please bear with me.

I went to a bike shop today with a friend who was testdriving a new Lemond. While I was waiting for her, I ended up chatting with the owner, whom I'd never met before (it was my first visit to the LBS). In the course of the conversation, I excitedly told him about my new custom wheels and specifically said that they were being built up as we spoke.

Anyway, when he found out that I was using White Industries hubs, he got this funny look on his face and told me that he "hated to ruin the fun" but that the hubs were no good. Clearly surprised, I explained to him that I'd gotten a number of recommendations for the hubs, including one presumably from the builder, and that I'd generally read favorable reports about them. He insisted that they're of low quality and merely appeal to the "chi chi" bike crowd. I told him that my builder--a very experienced one who came highly recommended--didn't seem too "chi chi" to me but whatever.

He further insisted that I would have been much better off with Campy Records or Chris Kings. I told him that (a) I didn't have the $ for CKs, (b) that I'd read conflicting reports about them and (c) that Campy Records don't offer a low-spoke count anymore. He disagreed with me on this last point. He even went so far as to look it up (Guess what? Campy doesn't make a 24 count hub anymore but he insisted that they "are out there.").

I kept trying to make the point with this guy that I'd done my homework but that like everything in the bike world, there are about any many opinions out there as there are cyclists. My point being is that just about every bike product on the market has given somebody trouble at some time. He took that has an insult to his experience and essentially told me that my research and everyone else's collective experience didn't compare to his thirty years "in the field."

Then, when I continued to look crestfallen, he said that that at my weight, I couldn't do much harm to any set of wheels/hubs. He then asked why I'd even bothered with custom and pooh poohed my answer that you couldn't buy 1380 gram factory wheels for the same price as my customs. That, and they're often harder to service. He then had the nerve to suggest that he could repair the wheels when I had problems with them. I told him I'd rather not be told "I told you so" and that I would be going elsewhere.

SadieKate, do you think this guy was just as a-hole, or do I have any anything to worry about? You seem to like your WI hubs a lot. I've read all the relevant posts on www.roadbikereviews.com, and they're generally very favorable.

Putting the hubs aside, what upset me the most is that he interjected his opinion (a) without it being solicited and (b) on a matter that was a done deal. What did he think I was going to do with the information if the wheels were already built? Why ruin my excitement?

This isn't the only thing that irritated me about the guy. I went there with my friend because I have (in my humble opinion) a good understanding about bike fit. So, while he's setting her up on the bike, I ask him about top tube length. He explained that he doesn't worry too much about measurements. He just makes sure that the rider is "comfortable." I didn't respond to this, but had to wonder. Riding a bike for a 5-10 minutes on a testdrive isn't going to tell you everything you need to know about comfort. Riding it for 50 miles after you've already dumped $2,000 on it will, however, but by then it's often too late. I guess that doesn't matter to him. Experience, my you-know-what. He never even looked at her on the bike.

Admittedly, I'm kind of mad (and a little worried about the money I just spent on these wheels). Sometimes dealing with the guys at my local shops is just not worth it. I either get ignored or talked down to. Most of them honestly don't want you to know anything about bikes. Argh!

Kate

[KayTee]

Indysteel, don't second-guess your wheel or the White Industries hubs! You did your homework and the guy is a jerk! Not much of a salesman, either, if he runs off other potential (and knowledgeable) customers like he did you. My DH has White hubs on one set of wheels and has never had a problem, nor has he had to tinker with them other tn regular maintenance (repacking bearing). We have friends who've had White hubs on their tandem wheels for years w/o any issues. Hope your friend is considering a second opinion on bike purchase and fit...at another lbs.

[indysteel]

Thanks for the reassurance Kay. I just read the reviews again from www.weightweenies.com too. Everybody, and I mean everybody on there, lists WI hubs as some of the best, especially for the money and weight. My wheelbuilder (Troy Watson at Ligero Wheelworks) posts on there quite a bit and appears to do a lot of wheels with WI. I doubt very much that he'd use a product over and over again if it wasn't any good. His reputation is ultimately on the line, along with WI's. I think my pride is hurt more than anything. This guy was just a JERK.

I wish I could steer her elsewhere, but I'm trying not to ruin my friend's excitement about her new bike. I do hope it fits her well. To be honest, she may have to learn the hard way that not all LBS's are created equal. The reason I research things to death before setting foot in a shop is for this very reason. A lot of shops don't want you to know anything and they resent the hell out of you when you do, especially if you are a woman. But it's my body and my money, so I come prepared. There's only one shop in town that I care to deal with because the manager has specifically told me several times that he loves how much I know for someone who's not been riding all that long. He thinks it's cool and doesn't patronize me.

[mimitabby]

nothing is worse than an unsolicited blowhard.
It sounds like the thing that is the worst is that his EGO was so far into the conversation that if you'd said you liked blue better than red he would have told you why red was better than blue.

[CyclChyk]

It is my experience that a person can adjust to any bike fit. My first bike was oversized for me and it was adjusted to accomidate my size. Not knowing any different, I rode it fine and was perfectly content with the bike. That is up until I got properly fitted for a bike that fit me.

The guy obviously has no people skills and is very self absorbed. Sadly this will not prevent him from having a successful bike shop because people go where the bikes are and not many cities have multiple bike shops to choose from.

Don't let his words deter you. Its the whole Chevy/Ford thing. Fans of one hate the other. It sounds like this is the case with your LBS guy. Plus, he apparently does not sell what you were after (which is why you went somewhere else) so he was probably trying to steer you into cancelling your order elsewhere and making your purchase from him. Its all about the sale, ya' know.

Just my .02

[SadieKate]

Indy, RUN do not walk away from that idiot. I don't deal with anyone who starts spouting this stuff in such a situation - even if you hadn't already ordered the wheels. Sales people who tell you what you should do without asking what you want the wheels for first are just jerks.

Chris King is getting some bad rap lately because they're considered too expensive for what you get. They have assumed the unwarranted cult status of a Mercedes in a field of many other equivalent level hubs and price themselves accordingly. Maintenance is stupid - they require special tools to maintain and CK controls the distribution, sale and pricing of his hibs. The bike shop has no say in the matter. Besides, the noise of a CK hub would drive you bonkers over time. Bubba has them on his mtb and they drive us all nuts.

Our LBS was actually quite happy that we went with WI over CK. Campy Record have a good reputation and they are what they are, but if they aren't available in a 24 spoke why go with it? Why build a $500 set of wheels on a set of outdated hubs even if you could find them tucked away in some dusty warehouse corner.

The guy obviously didn't get that pre-built wheels usually don't work well for someone of your weight. I can go on and on.

Basically, you said exactly what I've been saying over the years. Down to the LBS guys liking your willingness to research and come prepared with knowledge.

On the fit story for your friend, I hope she lucks out. You know what was lacking in that effort, or lack there of.

You did good and showed that you were obviously the more knowledgeable of the two. Besides, in the single speed crowd, WI hubs are considered the cream of the crop and while CK is trying to break into that market, the crowd is laughing at him for the exorbitant cost with no discernible improvement in quality or functionality. It's a market that tends to be critical of what my DH just called "rhinestone studded BS."

So, don't worry. You can justifiably be angry. Go have some chocolate and feel superior.:p

I think mimi nailed the guy pretty well.

[Geonz]

Which is more likely - that all your homework was wrong, or that there's a bike shop owner with strong opinions, not necessarily based on current facts about the situation at hand?
Bike shop owners can have big heads and lousy social skills.

[bcipam]

I have a number of friends who regularly build up their own bikes. They all recommend White Ind. (as well as CK). WI is the "Cadillac" component.

Like I said I know alot of bike guys, some who own shops, some who work in shops and many who can tell each a thing or two. Unfortunately it doesn't take any expertise to run or own a bike shop. I hate to say it but he sounds like a real idiot. I agree with SadieKate - run away quickly!

[Triskeliongirl]

This guiy reminds me of a LBS owner here. This guy is such a jerk that when I brought my terry titanium isis in for service he refused to work on her cuz she has a 24" front wheel. Yeh, you heard me. He tried to make me feel so bad about my purchase, when this was the only stock bike out there that FIT ME! My husband said he was just pissed I didn't buy my new bike from him. He is a calfee dealer and while I was very interested in a custom calfee, I didn't trust this guy to fit me properly since he is totally insensitive to fit issues specific to womens bodies. The net result is that I learned how to be my own mechanic so I don't need jerks like him. Enjoy your new wheels and don't frequent this fellows shop if you can avoid it!

[Bad JuJu]

This guiy reminds me of a LBS owner here. This guy is such a jerk that when I brought my terry titanium isis in for service he refused to work on her cuz she has a 24" front wheel. Yeh, you heard me. He tried to make me feel so bad about my purchase, when this was the only stock bike out there that FIT ME! My husband said he was just pissed I didn't buy my new bike from him. He is a calfee dealer and while I was very interested in a custom calfee, I didn't trust this guy to fit me properly since he is totally insensitive to fit issues specific to womens bodies. The net result is that I learned how to be my own mechanic so I don't need jerks like him. Enjoy your new wheels and don't frequent this fellows shop if you can avoid it!
Sounds like an LBS guy in northern New Jersey (about 15 years ago) who told me there was no bike that would fit me and I ought to just take up tennis or something else. Not only did I never go back there and consequently spent my cycling dollars somewhere else (ordered a Terry from another LBS, not 10 miles away), but I told my all my friends never to shop there. Not a good business strategy!

[7rider]

For some reason, bike shops can have this whole "If you didn't buy it from me, it must be crap" mentality.
Yeah - I did think of the Ford-Chevy analogy. Also, the cliche "Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody's got one."
You did your research. You made a sound, reasoned decision. He doesn't have to like it, but it would have been nice of him to keep his yap shut. An offer to service is legitimate - but an "if you have problems" vs. "when you have problems" would have been a little better.

[guest1]

OK, we all agree that your LBS guy was a jerk! I have experienced this too with a shop mechanic, not the owner, of my LBS. He ditched my wheelset and frame choice because it was not what they sold. It pissed me off, but no one else in shop has put down my choices, and at times giving praise and positive feedback (after doing research on their own on the products I purchased). So, I have learned to stay away from the "negative guy" and only deal with those willing to give me the respect I deserve.

I have been to other shops and they have not given me the time of day and I immediately walk out -- along with my money! I have also learned NOT to agrue with any LBS person. If their opinion is different from mine, I simply smile and ask "Why do you say that?" and let them speak. I sometimes learn info, small or large, other times it goes in/out and I never think about it again. Like everything else in the world, cycling has a thousand different options with a thousand different opinions. It is not the different opinions that matter, but how we process and respond to the opinions!

Do your research ... keep your opinions strong ... shop around ... spend your money where others respect your choices ... run, don't walk, when being an intelligent woman is a threat to the shop's ego!! Oh, and remember to smile -- it gets them everytime!! :p

Suzanne

[wannaduacentury]

This is kind of long, so please bear with me.

I went to a bike shop today with a friend who was testdriving a new Lemond. While I was waiting for her, I ended up chatting with the owner, whom I'd never met before (it was my first visit to the LBS). In the course of the conversation, I excitedly told him about my new custom wheels and specifically said that they were being built up as we spoke.

Anyway, when he found out that I was using White Industries hubs, he got this funny look on his face and told me that he "hated to ruin the fun" but that the hubs were no good. Clearly surprised, I explained to him that I'd gotten a number of recommendations for the hubs, including one presumably from the builder, and that I'd generally read favorable reports about them. He insisted that they're of low quality and merely appeal to the "chi chi" bike crowd. I told him that my builder--a very experienced one who came highly recommended--didn't seem too "chi chi" to me but whatever.

He further insisted that I would have been much better off with Campy Records or Chris Kings. I told him that (a) I didn't have the $ for CKs, (b) that I'd read conflicting reports about them and (c) that Campy Records don't offer a low-spoke count anymore. He disagreed with me on this last point. He even went so far as to look it up (Guess what? Campy doesn't make a 24 count hub anymore but he insisted that they "are out there.").

I kept trying to make the point with this guy that I'd done my homework but that like everything in the bike world, there are about any many opinions out there as there are cyclists. My point being is that just about every bike product on the market has given somebody trouble at some time. He took that has an insult to his experience and essentially told me that my research and everyone else's collective experience didn't compare to his thirty years "in the field."

Then, when I continued to look crestfallen, he said that that at my weight, I couldn't do much harm to any set of wheels/hubs. He then asked why I'd even bothered with custom and pooh poohed my answer that you couldn't buy 1380 gram factory wheels for the same price as my customs. That, and they're often harder to service. He then had the nerve to suggest that he could repair the wheels when I had problems with them. I told him I'd rather not be told "I told you so" and that I would be going elsewhere.

SadieKate, do you think this guy was just as a-hole, or do I have any anything to worry about? You seem to like your WI hubs a lot. I've read all the relevant posts on www.roadbikereviews.com, and they're generally very favorable.

Putting the hubs aside, what upset me the most is that he interjected his opinion (a) without it being solicited and (b) on a matter that was a done deal. What did he think I was going to do with the information if the wheels were already built? Why ruin my excitement?

This isn't the only thing that irritated me about the guy. I went there with my friend because I have (in my humble opinion) a good understanding about bike fit. So, while he's setting her up on the bike, I ask him about top tube length. He explained that he doesn't worry too much about measurements. He just makes sure that the rider is "comfortable." I didn't respond to this, but had to wonder. Riding a bike for a 5-10 minutes on a testdrive isn't going to tell you everything you need to know about comfort. Riding it for 50 miles after you've already dumped $2,000 on it will, however, but by then it's often too late. I guess that doesn't matter to him. Experience, my you-know-what. He never even looked at her on the bike.

Admittedly, I'm kind of mad (and a little worried about the money I just spent on these wheels). Sometimes dealing with the guys at my local shops is just not worth it. I either get ignored or talked down to. Most of them honestly don't want you to know anything about bikes. Argh!
Kate

Sounds to me he did his job which is to second guess yourself. I wouldn't worry about the wheels too much, it is just "his" opinion. and I hope your friend doesn't buy a bike from his shop. Run far, run fast. This guy will take you for a ride. Test ride elsewhere and continue helping your friend with your tried and true knowledge. Enjoy those wheels. Jennifer

[Triskeliongirl]

Yes and there are good bike shops out there, just hard to find. Harris Cylery in MA had no problem selling me a bike but unfortuntaly they aren't local. Finally i did find a local shop I like. I went there cuz I was having trouble locating a laid back enough seat post for my brooks finesse saddle. Not only were these guys able to help me, but they asked me 'how do you know so much about bikes'(as I told them my woes in finding a frame in my size with a slack enough seat tube angle for my long femurs, etc.) and liked my gadgets so much they took down info. on them so they could stock them in their shop (they loved my carradice sqr slim bag and bar end miror). Turned out they are even brooks dealers. I didn't even know I had a local brooks dealer before ordering from Wallingford. The only problem with this shop is they are pricey, but I will still go there before the shop where they treat me rudely. We can speak quite loudly through our pocketbooks.

[CyclChyk]

....Also, the cliche "Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody's got one."

Belly buttons??? Ohoh, my potty mouth has gotten that part wrong all these years :eek:

[Mimosa]

Hi Indysteel,

I would also go by what the reviews say, not what the LBS says. It sounds to me like he doesn't know what he is talking about. I had the same situation over where I live. For my new bike I started looking for a good LBS around here. Some LBS stores just told me so much crap, it's like they were doing "let's tell this girl a whole bunch of crap because she can't tell the difference". Ha! With forums like this (love you girls) and those review sites I can get a prettuh good idea about what's crap and what's not. In the end I have 2 LBS stores, one local for the small stuff (bike gear) you occasionally need and one LBS further away for my bike. I gave the local guy the option to order me that bike but he wouldn't do that, his loss, I will spent my $3250 somewhere else where I can get what I want, even if I have to drive 45 minutes for it. The local guy wasn't pissed but he didn't really like it either because he thought I would never go to his shop anymore.

Can't you get you friend to go to another store (one you have super experiences with) for a second opinion??? Just to let her feel and see with her own eyes what the difference in LBS is?

[Bikingmomof3]

The bike store sounds a lot like my local one, which I refuse to spend money in. Their attitude is one of, "you did not buy your bike here, we will not help you, only tell you our beliefs". I found a lovely bike shop about 45 minuites away, not close, but wonderful.

Ignore what the owner says, he sounds like a jerk.

[btchance]

Belly buttons??? Ohoh, my potty mouth has gotten that part wrong all these years :eek:

me too!!

Also, go with your homework. You read up on the wheels, talked to people, so trust what you know, not what one guy at a LBS said (especially since he didn't treat you friend right either).

[indysteel]

After thinking about it more this weekend, I think I rubbed this guy the wrong way from the moment we met. After expressing some of my opinions about fit, I think he took the attitude that "this girl thinks she knows what she's talking about. Well, I'll show her...." What a little man to feel threatened by me.

I sometimes wonder whether I'm just "imagining things" when it comes to dealing with certain LBSs here in town, but your responses are consistent with my own experiences. I tend to think there are two basic mentalities among LBSs. There are those guys that think it's cool that you know something about bikes and that they want you to know more. They assume a positive role in your bike education. I can think of a couple of guys--the guy I bought my bike from and the guy that did my fitting--that fit into that category. They were great to work with, and I owe a lot of what I know to them.

Then there are those guys that think you have to know everything about bikes to know something. They further think that the average person is too dumb to figure it out without their help. That's a load of you-know-what. I appreciate their experience and acknowledge that they have a lot to teach me, but the truth is that bikes aren't rockets. They're actually fairly simple, mechanically speaking. That's why so many people successfully do their own wrenching. You don't need to work in a shop for 30 years to know a lot about bikes, especially with the wealth of internet resources that are out there.

My friend did buy the bike and rode it a couple of times this weekend. So far so good. I hope it fits her and serves her well. I'm not sure he spent enough time with her to make sure the bike is the right size, but she seems happy and comfortable on it. And unlike this guy, I'm not interested in spoiling her fun.

[Offthegrid]

There are shops that will treat you nice even though you didn't buy your bike there. AllezGirl's LBS double checked my fit, measured my bike, ordered me new parts and spent hours installing them for only $40 labor. But I also spent more than $400 on parts and accessories and would recommend them to anyone.

I was convinced my stem was too short, but it was actually the saddle that was bothering me. I was always trying to push myself farther back on the seat, and I equated that to the stem being too short. Shop could have profited by selling me a stem, but said it was the perfect size for me and didn't pressure me to buy a new saddle (although I did). With the new saddle, the top tube/stem feels dead on.

You'll have the last laugh by not going back there and not recommending the shop to others.

[IFjane]

Indy - Regarding the way the guy "fit" your friend to her bike - I had a similar experience with my own LBS when I bought my old road bike. Knowing little or nothing about fit, I trusted the guy at the shop. He checked my standover, eyeballed my knee/toe alignment & asked if, when in the drops, I could see the front hub. That's it. At first I loved the bike & it did take me many thousands of miles, but eventually I began to have chronic aches and pains that were later attributed to the too-long TOP TUBE. Eventually I found a bike shop I love - it is almost 60 miles from my house but I will not go anywhere else again! I now have a bike that fits, and the comfort that comes from knowing that the people I now work with know what they are talking about (the owner of my LBS also wrenches for the Ironman series).

[light_sabe_r]

The solution to this quandry is simple.

Scout your LBSs for women staff. (no I'm not being sexist, It's coming from experience here)

I seriously lucked out when purchasing my road bike, I got a guy first who was a bit OVER my desires in what I wanted in my road shoes... then the girl who'd finished with her customer interupted him and kicked him away! I was really lucky cause she was a triathlete who had the same tastes in shoes I did. (The shimano's weren't our first choice, but the pearl Izumis were digging into the top of my foot I was sure I was getting a BLISTER after only 2mins of wearing them!)

So what If I bought the socks and other things with my road bike and shoes... She gave me such good service I'd happily go back there.

And the guys aren't all that bad either. ^_^ I'll be going back






Just depends on who you get. The girls tend to be better salespeople and actual riders themselves. The guys are riders too but the girls know all the problems we seem to have.
You're more likely to buy more with a woman sales rep but I think it's worth it for the levels of service.

But yeah indysteel, Just because you're not a man doesn't mean you can't research. Just let all your riding friends know who he was and what shop he was at. Word of mouth is by FAR the best advertising. And if you let them know then then the chances of them shopping there drop considerably.

[spokewench]

The bike store sounds a lot like my local one, which I refuse to spend money in. Their attitude is one of, "you did not buy your bike here, we will not help you, only tell you our beliefs". I found a lovely bike shop about 45 minuites away, not close, but wonderful.

Ignore what the owner says, he sounds like a jerk.

I JUST dont understand why LBS take the attitude if you didn't buy your bike there, they won't help you???

They don't make that much money selling a bike - they do make a bunch of money doing repairs (MOST) and selling bike clothes, shoes, etc. They are just BAD Business People!

[stacie]

I can't begin to tell you how many people told me what an idiot I was for buying my custom bike. I'll admit to being really nervous and questioning my decision after I had made it. Then she arrived. The finest bike I've ever thrown my leg over. You did the research and you bought what was right for you. This guy is upset that you didn't buy from him. Some people will just try to spoil it. Haven't you ever been to a new hairdresser and they say, "My word, poor dear. Who has been doing this to you?" They just want you to feel like they can fix you and everyone else is the enemy. Ride those wheels girl. You're gonna sweat it until they arrive. But they'll be great. stacie