Help me identify this bike

[Tuckervill]

I saw it at a junk shop on the way somewhere. A few hours later, in the dark, I shined (shone?) my headlights on it, only to find I was shining them in some guys living room! But he came out, and looked it over in the headlights, noticed the lugged steel frame and offered the old man $50 for it. It fits, as far as standover, etc.

It's been ridden/made rideable recently, because it has a Wal-Mart saddle and a Slime tube in the front tire. There are absolutely no markings on the frame to indicate who made it--I think it could have been repainted at one point, but it's still hard to tell. Here are the components, in case it helps:

27" wheels
Suntour Sprint front derailleur
Suntour Gt Rear derailleur
Dia Compe brake levers
Suntour downtube shifters (still have the rubber covers)
Nitto Universaide 105 bars
Freewheel I think says Chair and "Made in Japan" on it.
Sunshine quick releases on both wheels.
Looks like the reflectors are new.
Brake calipers are center-pull, but I can find no name on them anywhere (I haven't taken them off, yet.

I intend to do the rustproofing mentioned in the recent vintage bike thread, and will probably repaint.

Pics:

[KnottedYet]

From the shapes of the lugs, my first thought is Schwinn Paramount or Waterford?

Can you give us a close-up of the bottom bracket lugs?

Can you see the serial number on the underside of the bottom bracket? Waterford and the older Schwinn serial numbers can be tracked through the Waterford website.

You can also post pictures of the frame details on the Waterford forum and ask for help from the Waterford folks identifying the frame.

The brake cable routing is very odd. Please post a couple of close ups of the lugs on the frame, and I bet DebW would be able to identify it. How about a picture of the headbadge area? Does it still have a headbadge? (I can't tell from the pic)

Excellent purchase!

[Popoki_Nui]

The brake cable clamps bespeak of a 70's era or earlier frame; by the early-mid 80's even most low end frames had braze-on cable guides. The brake calipers may well be Dia-Compe along with the levers.
As suggested, closeup pix of the headtube/fork crown area, and the crankset, would be helpful. Finding the serial number is another good suggestion. The location and composition (BB/downtube locations, number of digits/letter-number combination etc) could be the key.
Another thing you can try: get close alongside the frame and look at a the frame tubes from a shallow angle, using different lighting. You *may* see remnants or a shadow of the original decals in/under the paint.
Hope you can post some closeups!

~Sherry.

[Tuckervill]

Nope, no head badge, which was the first thing I looked for. There is rust on the bottom bracket, that I'm a little concerned about. Would that be where the serial number might have been located? I could never find the serial number on the John Deere bike my son is building, either. See pics.

*the bike was upside down when I took the picture of the lugs on the bottom bracket...that's why it's a little disorienting!

[DebW]

From the components, it would be a middle-of-the-road kind of bike, price range around $150 in 1975. Certainly not a high end Paramount, and any other Schwinn didn't have a lugged frame. So probably European or Japanese. Can you see a brand name on the crankset? Are the rims steel or alloy? You might pin it down to the country of origin by measuring the bottom bracket shell width and figuring out if the fixed cup has left or right threads and the cup diameter and tpi. French, British, and Japanese headsets are also of different sizes. The head lugs are an odd shape that I don't recognize, and that probably means that it's not a Raleigh or Motobecane. BB lugs are pretty standard.

[KnottedYet]

DebW is my guru!! :D

[Tuckervill]

with all this sluething around. Lovin' it.

Two more pics. I'm not able to use the flash because it bounces off the white paint too much (doh! I could use the ZOOM!). These may be a little blurry.

Thanks, y'all.

[Tuckervill]

Thanks, Deb. My hunch has been from the beginning that it is Japanese, because of all the Japanese parts. It's not really important to know, really. I can figure out the BB stuff without knowing, but it's sure be easier if I did. And it's kind of like knowing who built my 110 year old house. It's just interesting.

Nashiki is a name that came up often in connection Nitto, but I can't tell if they made bikes this old.

I'm going to hunt around on bikeforums.net, too.

Thanks,
Karen

[Tuckervill]

The brake cable clamps bespeak of a 70's era or earlier frame

That's what I thought, too. They remind me of the bike that saved my life in 1978. (there's a thread around here, somewhere.) I think those clamps are lovely. Familiar.

I planned on buying a new road bike in March. Since my son is building up the John Deere, I thought it would be fun to do one at the same time, and I had been taking cursory glances at garage sales for a few months. It's a rare thing to see any kind of '70s road bike anywhere around here, so I thought I'd snatch this one up. Should be a learning experience, anyway. I can always sell it.

Karen

[KnottedYet]

I had a white Nishiki in the late 70's. I loved that bike. It was my first "real" bike, and I rode it everywhere. Can't remember what happened to it, think it got "borrowed".

[Lifesgreat]

OK, I looked at my 1976 Raleigh Grand Prix (all original ex. seat and pedals, BTW, and will be undergoing some renovation/TLC this winter), and your lugs are different than its lugs. So you can rule that one out :D

I'm such a BIG help. . .

[Popoki_Nui]

Can you make out any brand on the headset? Bottom bracket cups?
Those headtube lugs, and the fork crowns look very, very familiar. In fact, my late-60's Falcon has the exact same fork crowns.

[East Hill]

Tuckervill, have you been able to date any of the components via the vintage Trek website? The crown fork lugs look familiar to what I have on my old beater World bike (apparently made for Schwinn in Taiwan), but the rest of it doesn't look familiar. As others have said, the fact that it has clamps for the cable makes it pre-1980s. It does have DT shifters, so it must be a little more upscale.

Having said that, I don't think it's a Nishiki. Nishikis should have a serial number on the bottom bracket. It's an easy format to date (with the exception of my oddball numbered Nishiki Pro). Nishikis were originally headbadged as American Eagle, certainly as early as 1971. But you should be able to find a number of the bottom bracket if it's a Nishiki.

East Hill

[Tuckervill]

The headset? Like the nuts, etc., that hold the stem and fork on? I know what a headset is on a mountain bike, but I'm not sure on this one. Would this be something I would have to take apart to see?

The stem says Nitto.

I've been waiting for daylight so I can see a little better in the sunshine. Hope I find something. :)

Thanks for everyone's help.

Karen

[Tuckervill]

I'll check out the vintage Trek website.

I wish I knew what to look for as far as the serial number. It should be obvious on the bottom of the bottom bracket, no? I couldn't find one on the John Deere, either. And there's that big rusty spot on the BB. I seem to recall people stealing bikes and scratching the serial numbers off them when I was a kid. Maybe that's why this is rusty.

Karen

[DebW]

I wish I knew what to look for as far as the serial number. It should be obvious on the bottom of the bottom bracket, no? I couldn't find one on the John Deere, either. And there's that big rusty spot on the BB. I seem to recall people stealing bikes and scratching the serial numbers off them when I was a kid. Maybe that's why this is rusty.


You could be right about the serial number being ground off, and the resulting rust on the BB. They normally don't rust up that badly.

It was normal to find lots of Japanese parts on European bikes by the mid to late 70s, but not in the early 70s. What you have is intriguing because the Suntour Sprint and GT derailleurs were early models, superseeded by the V-GT, and I don't know of those being used on European bikes. European bikes in the early 70s were using Huret and Simplex shifters. Though Diacompe brakes were standard on Motobecanesthroughout the 70s. The crankset is also interesting, as it's cotterless. Low end 10-speeds from Europe didn't go cotterless until the late 70s. I'm leaning towards Japanese on this bike. Japanese bicycles available in America would have included: Nishiki, Centurion, C. Itoh, Fuji, Panasonic, and Sekai.

If the headset is labeled, there may be some writing on an outside cup, but the threading specifications would probably be inside. If the bike is Japanese, the frame cup outside diameter would be 30.0 mm (European would be 30.2).

[Maureen Valley]

I just sent this pic to my brother....the biking guru in Minnesota. Let's see what he says. He has a Trek shop up there.
Maureen

[Maureen Valley]

My brother's verdict on the bike is 'it's a low end 70's Asian ...'

Uh...I'll spare you the rest.

He suggests it's worthless.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Hugs to all:
Maureen

[Tuckervill]

Tell your brother I already knew all that, but thanks anyway. :)

Karen

[KnottedYet]

It may be worthless, but it's cute! Could be a lot of fun to play with.

[Tuckervill]

Yep, I love my mutt dogs, too! :)

I've really been fighting the urge to "take over" on my son's John Deere. (That's why he hasn't gotten very far--just got it sanded last week. But if I take over, what will he learn?) So, I thought if I had my own bike to work on, we could work side-by-side and he could learn stuff that way. And his project wouldn't become my project by default. He'll be much more proud if he does it all himself.

Karen