Gear ratio- compact- hill climb question (long)

[anakiwa]

Hi-

I'm new to the forum and was looking for help with the gearing on a new road bike. The bike is a custom so I can choose whatever combo of components I want. I live in Vermont in a very hilly area and have decided a compact (34/50) with a 12-27 in the rear would be the best option for 99% of my riding. (My current road bike is a triple (30/42/52) with a 12-25 and I like the gear range but not the triple.) The catch is that last summer I did one hill climb race (Mt Eqinox) and loved it. For that event my exBF changed the small ring on the triple to a 26 so I had a 26 in the front and a 25 in the back- I found I spent enough of the race in the 26-25 that I wouldn't want to do another hill climb without gearing that low. Other considerations are that I have a tri-bike with 10 spd ultegra and would therefore like to stick to 10 spd shimano (likely ultegra) on this bike so I can switch things back and forth. So far the 2 options I've been given include:

#1 Set up the bike with a mountain bike rear derailler so I can switch to an 11-34 cassette in the rear for the hill climb. The catch on this is that there aren't a lot of 10 spd cassettes out there that get this large. Interloc Racing Design makes one but the only review I could find http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/drivetrain/cassettes/interloc/PRD_338786_2484crx.aspx wasn't so promising. The up side of this option is that it's a much easier switch to make.

#2 Set up the bike for regular riding (compact in front) and then plan to switch to a triple for the hill climb. The down side of this is that it's a bigger deal to swap the crank, and potentially the bottom bracket (and potentially more expensive for one day's race). I can proably get away without swapping the front derailler as long as I do the swap right before and after the hill climb (for the hill climb I'll really only need the smaller ring so the shifting on the front isn't so important as the shifting in the rear).

Any thoughts on these options? Or ideas for another way of handling this problem? Any experience with the Interloc shimano compatible 10 speed cassettes?

Thanks very much!

[Veronica]

How much switching of things between bikes will you really do?

I'm only asking because having to have 10 speed shimano seems to me to be the limiting factor.

V.

[anakiwa]

I was thinking of getting a slightly lighter set of wheels for the new bike. It would therefore be nice to be able to use the better wheelset on the tri bike for longer races. It wouldn't be all that often, but I'm more likely to want to swap wheels a few times during the season, whereas the hillclimb situation would be once (at most twice) a season.

[Cassandra_Cain]

How much switching of things between bikes will you really do?

I'm only asking because having to have 10 speed shimano seems to me to be the limiting factor.

V.

I agree with that.

Campi has some good options, like a 13-29.

[DebW]

Personally, I'd be more likely to go with option (2). Or if I went with option (1), I'd swap the RD along with the cassette to avoid that long cage when I didn't need it.

[Veronica]

I don't know what your hills are like or how strong you are, but I do know that when I decided to get a compact double on my new bike, I spent a lot of time looking at Sheldon Brown's gear ratio chart. I wanted to be sure a compact double would have the gears I need. Where I ride is downright hilly, maybe verging on mountainous...

I'm a lazy ultra distance rider. I typically don't pedal down hill if doing 25 mph. On the flat I can reach 25 mph, but it certainly isn't sustainable. So I don't need a huge gear. I went with a 46 - 33 and a nine speed 11 - 34 cassette.

I guess what I'm saying is, think about what you really want this bike to be able to do for how and where you ride. And maybe just buy lighter wheels for your tri bike :D so you can set this bike up as a climbing bike, if you want.

V.

[anakiwa]

Thanks for the help.

Deb- What is it that makes you want to avoid the long cage?

Could I go with a 9-speed on the new bike and still be able to switch the wheels/cassettes back and forth with the other bike (10 spd).

Veronica- thanks for the advice about the gear ratio chart- my ex-BF (we're still pretty good friends) set up an excel spreadsheet with the numbers- I've spent a fair amount of time staring at it. Where I live is quite hilly (and there's a pretty significant one on my way home so many of my rides end with a big hill). I also occassionally will go over some of the gaps in the area (1500+ feet) on longer training rides. That said I'm comfortable on hills and I think all the up and down means that I'm a little better at climbing than I otherwise would be.

In all honesty, the gearing with my current triple (52/42/30 with a 12-25 cassette) probably suits me perfectly. It gives me a relatively low gear for climbing and it's only rarely that I'm pushing the top gears (Like you Veronica, I'm not a maniac on downhills- it's only on that long gradual descent that it gets tempting to see how fast I can go). But I find that the triple often gets slightly out of alignment and I'm having to really jam the shifter to get the derailler where I want it (someday I'll learn how to adjust these things myself, but for the moment I'm dependent on the LBS or the ex-BF- who isn't around as much as he used to be). My tribike has a compact and it's always been so much easier to shift. After studying the numbers I concluded that a 50/34 with a 12-27 would get me almost as high and almost as low and that I should be able to live with that. But it's a good point- maybe I should just stick with a triple- it would certainly solve the hillclimb problem.

So here's another question- anyone have any thoughts on whether an ultegra triple front derailler would shift more smoothly than my current 105 triple front derailler? (or is the higher price simply because it weighs less?)

[DebW]

Deb- What is it that makes you want to avoid the long cage?


I'll admit to not having ridden modern long-cage derailleurs, but from my experience of years ago, the longer the cage and the more chain-wrap and the further the top jockey wheel is from the cog, the slower and grindier the shift. For quick, crisp shifts, you want a narrow-range cluster and a RD not meant for anything larger.



In all honesty, the gearing with my current triple (52/42/30 with a 12-25 cassette) probably suits me perfectly. It gives me a relatively low gear for climbing and it's only rarely that I'm pushing the top gears (Like you Veronica, I'm not a maniac on downhills- it's only on that long gradual descent that it gets tempting to see how fast I can go). But I find that the triple often gets slightly out of alignment and I'm having to really jam the shifter to get the derailler where I want it (someday I'll learn how to adjust these things myself, but for the moment I'm dependent on the LBS or the ex-BF- who isn't around as much as he used to be). My tribike has a compact and it's always been so much easier to shift. After studying the numbers I concluded that a 50/34 with a 12-27 would get me almost as high and almost as low and that I should be able to live with that. But it's a good point- maybe I should just stick with a triple- it would certainly solve the hillclimb problem.

So here's another question- anyone have any thoughts on whether an ultegra triple front derailler would shift more smoothly than my current 105 triple front derailler? (or is the higher price simply because it weighs less?)

Since you are getting a custom frame, one thing I would consider is getting braze-on mounts for downtube shifters, and using a DT shifter for the FD. I hear so many complaints about FD shifting on STI levers, and I recently rode a bike with STIs for the first time. I believe that STI levers and FD just don't work well together. DT shifters provide a direct connection to the FD with minimal cabling, minimal cable bends, no springs or levers or cams or indexing. When I worked in a shop, we never had complaints about FDs, and the FDs were probably not nearly as good as today's. Since one doesn't shift a FD that often, using a DT shifter is not a big hardship, and with a friction shifter you can always trim it exactly where you want it to center over the chain. The ergonometrics of DT shifters are far better, using your entire arm in a natural plane to apply the pressure needed to shift the chain to a larger cog - STIs depend strictly on finger strength. Just my 2 cents, and maybe nobody else would agree with me, but I love DT shifters. Though I can't criticize a rear derailleur STI lever for ease of use.

[aicabsolut]

I've compared a 105 triple to a 105 double and I've compared rear ultegra and 105. The double was smoother than the triple, and the ultegra rear was much smoother than the 105 rear. So I imagine ultegra (or better) up front would make you much happier with the triple.

I disliked the triple so much I went withthe double (couldn't afford the bike that upgraded all over). But like yesterday when I did about 3000ft of climbing, I really wished I had a couple extra gears. But then I wasn't a huge fan of how big the middle ring is on the triple (since I wouldn't use the small ring often on most of my rides).

That's a long way of saying yes, upgrading would probably be better. But also just go with whatever is going to be the most functional for your rides. I personally wouldn't want to keep changing out those components.

[anakiwa]

Thanks everyone- these are great ideas.

My (much more limited) experience is also that the triple/STI shifter combo doesn't seem to work so well. I have 2 bikes with bar end shifters and the front deraillers shift beautifully (and one of those bikes is a 15 year old touring bike that's suffered some neglect over the years- even when it hadn't had a tune up in 5 years the triple still shifted perfectly). I was looking at the compact for 2 reasons- weight and the ease of shifting. Deb's idea of a downtube shifter sounds really appealing though.

I've never ridden a bike with downtube shifters (my touring bike has bar end shifters). I'd love to hear some opinions about positioning/ease of shifting with downtube shifters.

Also- anyone out there who has an ultegra triple front derailler with an STI shifter? Does it shift well?

How about thoughts on weight of a triple vs a compact? I'd be picking up roughly 100 grams right? I could probably live with that. Switching one of the STI shifters to a regular brake lever and a downtube shifter would drop a little bit of weight?

[Crankin]

I have an Ultegra triple front derailleur on my Kuota Kredo semi-custom bike. It is perfect. The shifting is smoooth and I have never had a problem. I had both Ultegra and Dura Ace on my front derailleur on my last bike, a Trek 5200. I never could easily shift into the big ring. At that point, I didn't use the big ring that much, but it was a pain. Moving up to the Dura Ace did help. My first road bike, a Cannondale WSD R600 had 105s's. It sucked and I always was dropping the chain, long after I was a beginner. It was hard to shift everything.
My husband actually switched out the cassette from a 25 to a 27,on my Kuota so we could have a couple of smaller gears for the hills we do (we live on one too, and sometimes it is tiresome to know that it is the last thing we have to do on every ride!). I actually don't like that granniest of granny gears, unless I am really climbing a big one (above 10-12%). Then, I'm glad I have it. I was actually thinking of getting a compact double at one time, but since I am 53 and hope to keep riding until I drop dead, I figured that having the triple would be good as i get older. You are obviously racing and your needs are a lot different, but I would go with whatever is the easiest option in most situations. When my son raced, as a junior, he got dq'd from a few races, because of the special rules they have for gearing in junior races. He simply forgot to change the cassette and rode with the "regular" one. I guess I'm saying that is that if you have to think about changing something in a race situation, unless it is part of your regular routine, you could forget.

[DebW]

I've used both downtube and bar end shifters, so I'll try to describe the comparison. If you're running both as friction shifters, the mechanics and function are pretty much the same - both provide a direct linkage to the FD. But bar ends need longer cables with more bends so your shifts will be a bit slower. Bar ends use your last 2 fingers to operate and put your arm in an awkward position IMO. DTs use your thumb-index finger on the lever though the shift is actually done with arm and wrist motion, which is strong and won't fatigue easily. DTs require that your hand has to leave the bars to shift, so on occassion you'll have to delay a shift due to bumpy roads. That's generally not an issue (unless you are racing). If you were happy with bar ends, you could probably be happy with DTs as well. You'd save a little weight with DTs over bar ends and have fewer cable failures. Either should work well for you, so maybe your comfort is the best guide.

[Veronica]

I've never used down tube shifters. But I love my bar end shifters. And I haven't had any of the problems Deb described with them. Plus by using bar ends or DTs you can mix up your gear. It doesn't all have to be Campy or Shimano.

V.

[emily_in_nc]

I've used Ultegra 9-speed triples (30-42-52) on two road bikes, both bought new. One had STI shifting, the other bar-end. The STI bike was always somewhat difficult to shift up in front (especially to the big ring), despite numerous adjustments. It seemed to get out of adjustment easily, and the most common problem was an inability to get it to shift to the big ring, or it would shift up but drop back down. The bike with the bar-end shifters works great to shift in the front. Never a problem at all.

I have another bike with a compact double (34-50) and Campy Chorus 13-29 in the back. I have been very happy with this setup; it's worlds better than the Ultegra STI. There were a couple of times on long rides, though, where my forearm or hand got tired enough that I had a hard time manipulating the lever to shift up, but that only happened at the end of rides, so it was not the shifting; it was me. It does take more hand strength than bar-ends but is distinctly better than the STI triple.

All just my experiences... good luck making your choice!

Emily

[Fredwina]

my experience with SIT triple is that they are more finicky. i.e. A Clean chain / chainring will shift cleanly, but the slightest bit of dirt will have you frustrated.

[anakiwa]

I have another bike with a compact double (34-50) and Campy Chorus 13-29 in the back. I have been very happy with this setup; it's worlds better than the Ultegra STI. There were a couple of times on long rides, though, where my forearm or hand got tired enough that I had a hard time manipulating the lever to shift up, but that only happened at the end of rides, so it was not the shifting; it was me. It does take more hand strength than bar-ends but is distinctly better than the STI triple.
Emily
Did this bike have downtube shifters?

Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

Just to clarify- I don't do any real road racing. I do a few triathlons every year and a low-key local time trial series (using a bike with an aero set-up, not the road bike I'm looking into replacing). The only other bike race I did last year was the hill climb race- but as I mentioned in the original post I really liked it and want to be able to do that sort of thing again.

I'm still wondering about the comfort of the downtube shifters? Is it a much longer reach than the bar end shifters? I suppose I could try the downtube shifter and if I don't like it, it should be easy to switch to a bar end shifter.

I know I'm getting really off the original subject, but does anyone have any experience with shimano's short reach STI shifter (ST-R700). I'm thinking of the rear derailler now. Does the short reach one shift as well as the ultegra? Or would I be better off with the ultegra and a shim. I have small hands and would really like to do the short reach one, but on shimano's website the instructions for the R700 are grouped with the 105, making me wonder if it would shift as well.

[SadieKate]

I can only compare STI short reach (same as Ultegra at least until last year) and Campy Chorus triples. Campy is easy, clean, fast and accurate - and not finicky. Ultegra? Well, let's just say it only stayed on my bike about 6 mos.

Think carefully about downtube shifters. I am not slamming the technology but you'd be setting up a bike with older technology and harder to find components that could be hard to support. You might need to be the one with the knowledge for what to use and how to maintain. Some people just want to drop off the bike at the shop and pick it up when it's ready. Not every shop has superb mechanics that will know how to work on anything you want. Sometimes the mechanic is a highschool kid that doesn't know anything about older parts or have the interest in working on something that doesn't look like the bling of the future.

Does the new bike have triple compatible levers already?

BTW, I swap cassettes all the time but I'm not racing. I just live with the long cage derailleur and chain.

[anakiwa]

Does the new bike have triple compatible levers already?.
The new bike doesn't exist yet. The plan is to put in an order for a custom bike this winter so I can have it in the spring. So I can basically put together whatever combo I want.

Since all the bikes I have use Shimano, I'd lilke to try to stay with Shimano compatible parts- you guys sure seem to like Campy though.

[Velobambina]

My 'cross bike has campy chorus components with the compact double crank. My Bianchi also has campy while my other bikes have shimano. The campy components are so much nicer--easier, smoother shifting and when I have to trim, much more precise. Campy hoods/shifters/brake levers seem to fit my small hands better, too. Eventually, I will swap out the shimano components on my Luna Eclipse for campy. If you're going custom, I vote for campy.