Cadence/Speed/Hr Q

[crazycanuck]

Hi,


I just purchased a new fancy shmancy Polar CS200 Odometer/hrm/cadence cyclo computer. I did my first commute with it this morning and would like to ask a couple of questions. If the answers are in a certain thread that I haven't scanned through, please let me know. I swear i've done a few searches on TE for the answer to my question but haven't found the exact answer yet.

One example is: I was at 28km/hr and my cadence was 93. As i'm still lost on cadence, can you tell me if that's about right? I know my cadence stayed around the 88-99 mark.


A q about heart rate-I was once told it's 233-your age..i think? I think I was in my target zone this morning as the computer kept beeping at me when it hit 155.

Thanks again.

c

[SadieKate]

I'm not sure what you're looking for in comparing speed to cadence. Cadence is simply the number of revolutions per minute. Depending on the gear you are in your speed with differ.

You can use this calculate to estimate your mph in a certain gear and cadence. http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/

If you are asking about the proper cadence - each of us is different. The old adage is to target the 80s-90s, but this is also different based on the terrain and your body. RBR had a good little test from Max Testa on determining whether you're a spinner or masher. Need to go find links here also.

Go through your Polar book. The software should set up the computer with the max HR based on your age and gender but that is just an estimate. Each one of us has a difference max HR. To get accurate you need to do a field test. I think roadbikerider.com had one. Sally Edwards has them. Every coach who works with an HRM has one. Someone will post a link.

[maillotpois]

Masher here... :cool:

[SadieKate]

http://www.roadbikerider.com/255e.htm

Excerpt: HIGH-CADENCE PEDALING

Pedaling cadence is individual. Don't copy high-cadence riders like Lance Armstrong until you determine if that's your most efficient style.

As a result of Lance's success with fast pedaling, many recreational riders and racers have spent inordinate amounts of training time trying to spin faster. The thinking goes: If Lance does it, I should do it, too.

But not so fast. Like most cycling techniques, rapid pedaling is appropriate for some riders but not for all riders. Just because it works for Lance doesn't mean it will work for you.

For perspective on this issue, I talked with Allen Lim, the doctoral graduate from the University of Colorado who has been studying power output in cyclists (see chapter 3). As a result of his studies, he has formulated what might be termed Lim's Law:

"A fast spin isn't a technique for producing power. It's a result of having power."

In other words, Lance doesn't spin fast in order to increase his wattage at a given heart rate. Instead, he spins fast because he has so much power that he can afford to ride at a faster cadence, thus sparing his leg muscles and transferring the strain to his cardiovascular system. It's an important distinction.

The heart muscle doesn't fatigue like leg muscles do. Spinning fast on early climbs in a long race means that Lance has plenty of leg power left when it's needed near the end.

So, Lance pedals fast because he has more power than his competitors. To restate Lim's Law, fast pedaling isn't a training technique to help you gain power, it's a byproduct of being powerful.

Fine. So how do you determine what cadence is best for you? Take the test described below in Try This on Your Next Ride.

7. Try This on Your Next Ride o^o o^o o^o o^o o^o o^o

Take Testa's Test to find your best climbing style and cadence.

Max Testa, M.D., is a former pro team physician who now directs a sports medicine clinic in Davis, California, owned by Eric Heiden of speedskating and cycling fame.

According to Testa, the key to discovering your most-efficient cadence is to pay attention to what happens
when you're about to blow on a climb.

"What fails when you're trying to keep up on a climb?" he asks. "Do you shift to a lower gear and spin fast because if you go to a bigger gear and grind your legs die? In that case, you need strength. But if, when you use a smaller gear and spin, your breathing goes out of control, you need more cardiovascular conditioning."

Try Testa's Test when you're doing hill repeats:

---On the second or third time up the climb, when you're warmed up but not yet tired, stay in the saddle and push as hard as possible. Near the top, at the point when you begin to lose power and your pedal stroke gets ragged, shift to a harder gear and try to maintain the same speed. Pay attention to what happens.

---Recover, then do the climb again. This time when the going gets tough, shift to an easier gear and try to spin. Compare your sensations and your speed.

Done on several days with rest between sessions, this experiment should tell you whether you're more efficient as a spinner or a grinder. It should also reveal if you need to work on leg strength and power or cardiovascular conditioning in order to become a better climber.

[maillotpois]

Take Testa's Test to find your best climbing style and cadence.



Max Testa, M.D., is a former pro team physician who now directs a sports medicine clinic in Davis, California, owned by Eric Heiden of speedskating and cycling fame.



According to Testa, the key to discovering your most-efficient cadence is to pay attention to what happens

when you're about to blow on a climb.



"What fails when you're trying to keep up on a climb?" he asks. "Do you shift to a lower gear and spin fast because if you go to a bigger gear and grind your legs die? In that case, you need strength. But if, when you use a smaller gear and spin, your breathing goes out of control, you need more cardiovascular conditioning."



Try Testa's Test when you're doing hill repeats:

*

On the second or third time up the climb, when you're warmed up but not yet tired, stay in the saddle and push as hard as possible. Near the top, at the point when you begin to lose power and your pedal stroke gets ragged, shift to a harder gear and try to maintain the same speed. Pay attention to what happens.

*

Recover, then do the climb again. This time when the going gets tough, shift to an easier gear and try to spin. Compare your sensations and your speed.

Done on several days with rest between sessions, this experiment should tell you whether you're more efficient as a spinner or a grinder. It should also reveal if you need to work on leg strength and power or cardiovascular conditioning in order to become a better climber.



potatoes, anyone....?

[crazycanuck]

Thanks SK.


I guess I was asking about proper cadence & I think you've answered my q.:D

I think just need to trust Polar on the HR settings. I've not used anything like it before....

I am still playing around with the cycle computer item and will have some more fun when i get home tonight.

c

[SadieKate]

An article by velogirl on estimating heart rate zones.

http://www.velogirls.com/resources/publications/heart.htm

[crazycanuck]

Thank you so much for the info ladies.

Again, I apologize for my TE search skills...:) :o

C

[SadieKate]

Oh no. I searched on the world wide web. I just knew where to look for credible info.

I'm a big fan of the newsletter from the guys at roadbikerider.com. Its free, funny and informative. What more can you ask for?

[maillotpois]

Wow - I was finding the RBR quote and posting it at the same time you were SK. It just took me an additional minute to get it in there.....

Great minds. Or something.

[Cassandra_Cain]

You know, after having a power meter now, I don't think I could go back to HR.

I've found it wildly unreliable, although I've started to spot some of the factors.

I'm mentioning this as the original poster, she asked about heart rates and all.

Good example....didn't get a good night of sleep? your HR will be higher than normal even if you keep the workload the same. riding high at altitude? your HR will be lower and so will the stroke volume, lowering your VO2 max - thus your performance. not drinking enough water or are dehydrated? yeap, HR gets affected. Worrying? uh-huh, more HR fluctuation.

In each of these cases, if you went strictly by HR, you'd end up altering your riding without needing to.

If I couldn't use a PM, I would honestly use RPE as I find that's much more consistent. Also it keeps you from having your rides being governed by a number on a watch which isn't always indicative of your condition.

A good compromise is to use both your HRM and RPE....if you are riding at a given pace and your HRM reads high, think about how you feel - does it agree with what the HRM says?

If you are interested, you can read more about RPE here:

http://www.sportfit.com/sportfitglossary/RPE.html

I think cadence was clearly explained above. Just an additional word about that....riding at a higher cadence, say 100 vs. 80, will result in a higher heart rate for the same amount of work. The caveat is, if you ride at the lower cadence you may end up fatiguing yourself faster. You'll find what range works for you - you'll naturally tend to pedal in it consistently.

[SadieKate]

Wow - I was finding the RBR quote and posting it at the same time you were SK. It just took me an additional minute to get it in there.....

Great minds. Or something. Probably the "or something."

[Veronica]

Good example....didn't get a good night of sleep? your HR will be higher than normal even if you keep the workload the same. riding high at altitude? your HR will be lower and so will the stroke volume, lowering your VO2 max - thus your performance. not drinking enough water or are dehydrated? yeap, HR gets affected. Worrying? uh-huh, more HR fluctuation.

In each of these cases, if you went strictly by HR, you'd end up altering your riding without needing to.



When riding at altitude or dehydrated your expectations of your performance should be altered.

V.

[Cassandra_Cain]

When riding at altitude or dehydrated your expectations of your performance should be altered.

V.

Yeah but if you are using your HRM as a guide and not by RPE or Power, then you'll have no way of knowing any better. If the original person wants to ride above say, 150 bpm, and she's having trouble getting past 140 while at 6000 feet - what does she do? Try to get up to 150? Or does she ride at 140? How is she going to know the workout is having the desired effect if all she does is look at the HRM? Without RPE, it is just a number.

Nor would you know how much your performance is altered just by, whereby there is a fairly clear relationship between VO2 max and altitude which you cannot measure by HR.

[doc]

An article by velogirl on estimating heart rate zones.

http://www.velogirls.com/resources/publications/heart.htm

CrazyC

The heart rate calculation of 220 - age is complete and total nonsense. It is not based on any science and should be ignored. (It is loosely based on the fact that newborns have a normal heart rate up to 220 - which is true. To which there is nothing to say but "so what". This has abolutely nothing to do with the maximal exercise heart rates of adults.)

You can find lots of discussion here about testing for your own max heart rate with maximal effort.

[Veronica]

Yeah but if you are using your HRM as a guide and not by RPE or Power, then you'll have no way of knowing any better. If the original person wants to ride above say, 150 bpm, and she's having trouble getting past 140 while at 6000 feet - what does she do? Try to get up to 150? Or does she ride at 140? How is she going to know the workout is having the desired effect if all she does is look at the HRM? Without RPE, it is just a number.


They are all just numbers.

I don't know how you could ride without thinking about your perceived exertion, unless you're totally disconnecting from your body as you ride.

BTW my experience at altitude has been the opposite. My HR gets higher, not lower.

V.

[SadieKate]

The heart rate calculation of 220 - age is complete and total nonsense. It is not based on any science and should be ignored. (It is loosely based on the fact that newborns have a normal heart rate up to 220 - which is true. To which there is nothing to say but "so what". This has abolutely nothing to do with the maximal exercise heart rates of adults.)

You can find lots of discussion here about testing for your own max heart rate with maximal effort.


Go through your Polar book. The software should set up the computer with the max HR based on your age and gender but that is just an estimate. Each one of us has a different max HR. To get accurate you need to do a field test. I think roadbikerider.com had one. Sally Edwards has them. Every coach who works with an HRM has one. Sheesh, doc, thanks for making it look I said the 220 thing was a rule set in stone.:confused:

[doc]

Sheesh, doc, thanks for making it look I said the 220 thing was a rule set in stone.:confused:

SadieKate - Please do not take that at all personally. It is one of my pet peeves (i.e. it's my issue not yours). The 220 - age thing is offered up like law all over the place and I try to debunk it whenever I can. Used to be one could find the 220-age poster in every gym and in every aerobics class room etc.

As for perceived exertion, now that has been studied. Research has shown that when the exerciser can no longer speak in sentences, that is, he/she has to take a breath every few words, they have passed their anaerobic threshold.

What others have said about HR varying with altitude, a night's sleep, dehydration etc is also true. But perceived exertion will be still be "correct" despite those individual and day to day changes.

[Dogmama]

Crazy C - I always adjust HRM's upwards by 10-20 BPM. According the the scales, my 75% is 139BPM. As Cassandra & Veronica have said, my perceived level of exertion is different - I feel like I'm just getting warmed up at 139BPM. I perform best at 155 - that HR feels more like 75% to me.

Your mileage may vary.:p I think those of us who are more fit can handle a higher heart rate. I have no scientific basis for that other than my own gut feeling. :D

I love gadgets, but for me, I need to make sure I'm not turning my cycling into a science project.

[crazycanuck]

Thanks ladies,

SK-I understood what you meant by max HR but couldn't respond as i was lurking whilst at work...
Doc-that's the number I was referring to(220) and now understand it could be/should be/can be bunk.

Dogmama-you could be right about me turning my cycling into a science project...some days it seems that way...

I guess the main reason for me asking about cadence is I wonder if i'm improving or not. As i normally cycle on my own the answer lies only with me.
It's just annoying having people fly past me when there's a strong headwind along the swan river cycle path..

Perhaps my thread should have been about cadence & headwinds....:o

c

[Dogmama]

Perhaps my thread should have been about cadence & headwinds....:o

c


"Spin, spin, spin in the wind!"

[maillotpois]

Is that like "Roll, roll, roll in ze hay!" ?

[Dogmama]

Where wolf?

[maillotpois]

There wolf!

(In your avatar.... he's SO cute!)