650s or 700s?

[busyone]

I've been in bike shopping mode for several months and my biggest dilemma now is wheel size. I currently ride 700 wheels, as do all of the girls that I ride with. The fitter that I'm currently working with feels that at my height I'm (5' 2.5") I could go with 650s or 700s but, 650s may be a better option.
Since I don't know anyone who rides 650s, I'm looking for opinions from anyone with experience. I've gotten many opinions from the bikers I ride with (both guys & gals) but it's all been anecdotal since everyone rides 700s.
Today, the bike I'm trying has 650s.
So here are my questions; What wheel size do you ride? Have you ridden one size, then switched to another and if so, why?
Any you may have would be greatly appreciated!:)

[jenxxs]

Hi,
I'm shorter than you (5' even , rounding up :rolleyes: ), and I now ride a bike with 650s, after starting out with a bike with 700s. The 700-wheeled bike was too large for me, so take that into account when reading the rest of my reply.

When I was looking for my current bike, I decided early on to go for smaller wheels - either 650 or the 24/700 Terry combination - because the frame geometry could be closer to "normal." I didn't have enough personal experience to know for sure that this would be better for me, but it made sense to me that the way to build a smaller bike is to scale down everything if possible, not just a smaller frame on normal-sized wheels.

My experience so far: since the 650 bike fits me much better, I became immediately faster, and I just felt much more comfortable with the bike from the start. So I think most of my benefits come from the proper sizing. However, I can report what seems to be a clear difference between the two bikes - the 700 was a "plusher" ride, whereas on the 650 I feel all the bumps in the road much more even with a carbon fork, which I didn't have on the 700 bike. (Both bikes are steel.) My brother is now planning to switch from 650 to 700, and he's commented that the 700 bikes that he's taken on test rides feel so much better to him. For him, I think again it's a combination of better fit and the 700 wheels/tires giving a smoother ride.

Another factor in the smoothness comparison is that the most common 650 tire size out there seems to be 650/23, versus the common size of 700/25. There are a few brands that make 650/25, and there's even one brand of 650/28 - I can't comment on how much difference that would make, because I haven't tried anything besides 650/23 yet.

Finally, I should say that the smoothness difference was most noticeable on my first ride - I was somewhat shocked after running over cracks in the road for the first time on my new bike. I've gotten used to the difference in road feel, however, and so now I don't even think about it anymore. Kind of like going from a minivan to a sports car?

Good luck with your choice!

[brok]

I'm 5'2 and ride a 47cm with 700 wheels. I love my bike with 700s, but I have never ridden one with 650s to compare. I would go with the bike that fits best and feels the best to you regardless of wheel size - in other words don't base your decision on wheels size because there are many other factors. Good Luck

[emily_in_nc]

I'm 5' 2.5" just like you. I have four bikes:

* Bike Friday Pocket Crusoe folding bike - 20" wheels
* Aegis Swift carbon racing bike - 46 cm - 650c wheels
* Two mountain bikes - 26" wheels

I used to have a Terry Isis with a 700c wheel in back, 24" wheel in front, but sold it.

I wouldn't ride a bike with 700c wheels. Why? Because in order to get the short top tube length I need (i.e., ~19" on a road bike), I would have to have too much toe overlap with 700c wheels. I do have a little bit of overlap even on my 650c wheels, but none on my other bikes (nor on my Terry). I know some short gals put up with it, but I'd rather not. It has almost caused me to fall a couple of times on my Aegis (like when turning sharply at slow speed). To avoid toe overlap in a bike with 700c wheels, the top tube would have to be too long for me. I'd end up having to use a super-short stem, which can lead to handling issues. If you are longer in the torso than me (my inseam is around 28.5" for comparison sake), you might not have this issue.

The only downside of smaller wheels is that you have to make absolutely sure to carry a tube and patch kit, or two tubes, as most others you ride with will not have the same size tubes if you get a flat (or heaven forbid, two on the same ride, which happened to me once with my 24" Terry tire!) And, there aren't as many colorful tires available in 650c sizes. Other than that, I like 'em just fine. I think they look better proportioned on small bikes too. 47cm and smaller bikes with 700c wheels look kinda funky to me. Then again, I know a lot of folks think Bike Fridays and Terrys look funky, but I kinda like being different. :D

Bottom line: Don't get too hung up on tire size. Buy the bike that fits you well and inspires you to ride! :)

Emily

[Eden]

I'm 5' even and all of my bikes up till now have always been 700's (I ride a 44cm). I don't have a toe overlap problem on any of my bikes no matter what the wheel size, but I do have quite small feet. I just built up a new bike that I won that came as a 650 bike and not looking a gift horse as they say, I went with it. Today was my first real ride and I can't say I really notice much difference. The fit and feel are suprisingly similar to my other bikes, and as far as road feel - this new one is titanium and it is quite smooth - no road buzz and very dampened bumps. I don't notice any handling issues good or bad. Overall it was quite comfy. For overall ease of access to tubes/tires/wheel changes when racing the 700 is definitely better and my carbon bike, I think, will continue to be my main race bike, but I'll definitely use the 650 ti bike over the winter and for crits that I might not want to risk my carbon one in.

[emily_in_nc]

I'm 5' even and all of my bikes up till now have always been 700's (I ride a 44cm). I don't have a toe overlap problem on any of my bikes no matter what the wheel size, but I do have quite small feet.

Eden, it may be all in the foot size, but I suspect your top tubes must be longer than mine, even in a 44cm frame size. As a racer, you probably ride in a more aero position than me (I ride at about a 45-degree angle), so may prefer a longer top tube. Do you know what length your (effective top tube, if slanted) is? The reason I ask is because at a 19" top tube length, there is no way to avoid toe overlap with 700c wheels and typical seat tube angles (73-75 degrees). My 44.5 cm Terry had a 73 degree STA and a 19" top tube. No toe overlap because of the small front wheel. My 46cm Aegis has a 75 degree STA and a 19.1" top tube, and I have a bit of toe overlap. I wear size 7 shoes, so not tiny but not huge either. If I had larger wheels, it would be unacceptable, though.

Just interested!

Thanks,
Emily

[Bluetree]

I'm 5-1 and also ride on 700c wheels (48cm bike). I 've never had any issues with overlap. I tried out the 650c wheels on a 44cm road bike, but the whole bike frame/size was just too small for me, considering I have a longer torso.
(If I buy a tri bike next year, I will probably go with 650c wheels but tri geometry is a bit different than a road bike.)

I'd say go with how the overall bike fits your body and makes you the most comfortable.

Happy bike shopping!:D

[bluerider]

Hi busyone,

I'm the same height as you and I've ridden both. My first bike was a 47cm with 650c and then I upgraded to my current bike which is also 47cm but with 700c. To be honest, I did so because my new bike came stock with the bigger wheelset. It took about 2 weeks to get "used" to the bigger wheels. To be honest, I really hated the bigger wheels but whether it's true or not, it's helped me stay in the pack longer!

I really liked the acceleration on the 650cs and obviously lighter wheelset but eventually found my groove on the bigger wheels. I have a bit of a toe overlap but I've never crashed because of it. And 700cs don't look funny on my bike!!! :D

At the end of the day, go with what you are comfortable with what fits and what you feel more comfortable with.

Good luck!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I think your height indicates you need a smaller size bike than the "average" 5'4" woman. Put 700 wheels on a small bike and you'll have annoying toe overlap (your toes hitting the wheels at slow speed and tight turns).
I don't think it's fair for you to compare a 650x23 to a 700x25. A wider tire is going to be fatter all around, have more air, and thus plusher ride. What i hear is the 650 tires are generally plusher comfier ride than 700s, if width is equal. 650's come in all kinds of widths, including really wide 38cm.
Here's one good article with some info:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/650b.html

[Eden]

Eden, it may be all in the foot size, but I suspect your top tubes must be longer than mine, even in a 44cm frame size. As a racer, you probably ride in a more aero position than me (I ride at about a 45-degree angle), so may prefer a longer top tube. Do you know what length your (effective top tube, if slanted) is? The reason I ask is because at a 19" top tube length, there is no way to avoid toe overlap with 700c wheels and typical seat tube angles (73-75 degrees). My 44.5 cm Terry had a 73 degree STA and a 19" top tube. No toe overlap because of the small front wheel. My 46cm Aegis has a 75 degree STA and a 19.1" top tube, and I have a bit of toe overlap. I wear size 7 shoes, so not tiny but not huge either. If I had larger wheels, it would be unacceptable, though.

Just interested!

Thanks,
Emily

I'm really short torso and armed so I tried to find the shortest tt around. When I ordered my first small bike, which was the Fuji, the web site listed it as having 650's so it was a bit of a surprise when it came with standard 700's. My Fuji (44cm) has an eff tt 493cm with compact geometry, my Ruby(44cm) has an eff tt of 496cm, also compact geometry. I don't have the specs for the new bike around (It's a Ticycles Hyak 47cm), but I seem to remember that it has the same tt as my Ruby, but is standard geometry. None of them cause me any toe overlap problems, but as I said I have very small feet - I wear a size 4.5 to 5 usually. The Ruby's front fork was designed to prevent toe overlap and in direct comparison with the new bike I think the Ruby may actually have more clearance. Someday I'm going to have to ride them both back to back to really see how they differ as far as handling/cornering go. With fenders on the Fuji every once in a while my toe would rub the fender, but it never caused me any real problems.

[Kathi]

I just built a custom frame with 650c wheels. When I demoed bikes the only one I could find small enough in the brand that I wanted was a 48 cm on 700c wheels. The bike was too big for me, which I noticed, but I couldn't tell the difference between wheel sizes.

If you're worried about a harsher ride run less air in your tires, I run about 90 lbs. I also got handbuilt wheels for my new bike. They were designed for a small 105 lb rider rather than a 180 lb rider. They are more compliant than stock wheels and give me a very smooth ride. I read somewhere that a 650c wheelset will be 25% stiffer than a 700c wheelset of the same build. The builder was in Santa Fe, New Mexico and he has access to a company that makes rims for a light rider.

I have no issues with keeping up with others. Since I got my new bike my friends call me little lightning because I often catch up with them and disappear ahead of them.

[emily_in_nc]

I'm really short torso and armed so I tried to find the shortest tt around. When I ordered my first small bike, which was the Fuji, the web site listed it as having 650's so it was a bit of a surprise when it came with standard 700's. My Fuji (44cm) has an eff tt 493cm with compact geometry, my Ruby(44cm) has an eff tt of 496cm, also compact geometry.

Interesting - thanks for the info! Both your bikes have slightly longer top tubes than mine (yours are ~ 19.4", mine 19.1"), and of course you have much smaller feet. You likely wouldn't have toe overlap on my Aegis like I do because of your smaller feet. You're right, though, the fork rake also makes a difference. That's something I don't know much about.

Emily

[GLC1968]

Emily - I have a 44cm specialized and 6.5 size foot. While it doesn't have toe overlap, it does have a much larger fork rake than my previous Fuji (49cm) did and both bikes have 700cc wheels (the Fuji was too big). I also have a Terry classic with a 24/700 combo on a slightly larger frame (since the tt was shorter, I could ride a 19'). There is a HUGE handling difference between my Terry and my Specialized. The Specialized is sluggish...though I never thought so until I got used to the Terry. Most people don't believe that there could be a difference or that it would be in that direction. A stiff and light aluminum road bike has more sluggish steering than a steel touring bike with thick tires? Yep!

I'm awaiting the arrival of a new Terry Isis which will have 650s, so I'll be able to offer an additional comparison by the end of the week (Yipee!). I loved how my Classic felt/fit so much that I wanted a 'go fast' bike from Terry.

I also agree with Lisa. You cannot fairly compare the ride difference between a 700x25 and a 650x23. Both of my road bikes have 23's and while I think they ride fine, my husband switched from a 700x25 to a 700x23 for one ride and HATED them. He promptly went back to the 25's for the smoother ride. He said the slightly reduced rolling resistance was not noticible enough to put up with the rougher ride.

[mimitabby]

gosh all you guys have little feet.

(size 8-9)
mimi

[Bluetree]

gosh all you guys have little feet.

(size 8-9)
mimi

We have Happy Feet :D

(size 6)
Joy

[Lucky 13]

Hi. I've been riding a 650c on a Cannondale 2.8 aluminum R500, 43cm for the past 5 years. I'm told that it was not originally made for a woman, but for a small man or perhaps small teenager. I'm 5'2 and needed a quite a bit of adjustment from the handlebars, stem, and seat. It fits like a glove. As far as ride, I feel every pebble on the road. Because I am commuting now and need to sometimes roll through the pot holes of Boston, I switched to a hybrid with front shocks and a couch for a seat...a totally different beast, no comparison. I now feel like I am riding the Bismark!

I've done a handful of multiple day charity rides on the 650c and packed wisely. I always carried an extra tube and TIRE with me because I was told that the roaving bike mechanics probably wouldn't carry 650c with them. I remember one charity ride I did and found a woman close to tears because she kept getting flat tires. Come to find out the tire itself was cut and everyone that passed her was riding a 700....couldn't lend her a tire. She was ready to sag. I came along and saved the day(my claim to fame that day!) and gave her my extra tire. Away she went to finish the days ride...smiling.

Good luck

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

gosh all you guys have little feet.

(size 8-9)
mimi

Size 9.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Hi. I've been riding a 650c on a Cannondale 2.8 aluminum R500, 43cm for the past 5 years.....As far as ride, I feel every pebble on the road.

Hey Lucky,
You don't say what width 650c tire you are riding on. If you can put a wider (fatter) size 650 on your bike, you will feel a much cushier ride. You might want to find out how wide a 650 your fork and brakes can accomodate. Or just look to see if there is still some space and get the next width or two up from what you have and see how that feels. Even just 3cm could really make a big difference in the feel of the ride. Remember when your tire is wider, it's fatter all around, not just in width. That gives you a very slightly taller bike but more importantly gives you a lot more air to ride on. More air=more shock absorption.

[Lucky 13]

Hi Lisa.

Thanks for your suggestions. I currently have a 23-571 on. Yes, it's true that a wider tire would give a little more give. The fork is another issue.

Cheers.
Lucky

[Triskeliongirl]

I'm awaiting the arrival of a new Terry Isis which will have 650s, so I'll be able to offer an additional comparison by the end of the week (Yipee!). I loved how my Classic felt/fit so much that I wanted a 'go fast' bike from Terry.

I will be really interested to hear how you like this bike. When I ordered my 2005 titanium isis, I ordered the 17.5 rather than 19" to get the shorter top tube and 73 degree seat tube (i can't be set up on a 74 or greater sta like on the newer 19" frames). In my experience I can't be set up on most of the smaller sized 650 or 700c wheeled bikes, cuz either they steepen the seat tube too much for me (which only lengthens the reach since you need to slide your saddle back 1 cm per degree of STA to get the same position), or they have so much trail that the handling is too sluggish. So, I just picked up a 2003 steel isis, 19" but with the 700/24" wheel, 73 degree STA, 49 cm TT) for a song on ebay that I sent to a framebuilder to install s/s couplers and am building as a travel bike. In fact, she shipped today so I will let you know how I like her.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Hi Lisa.

Thanks for your suggestions. I currently have a 23-571 on. Yes, it's true that a wider tire would give a little more give. The fork is another issue.

Cheers.
Lucky

Well, it's the same for 650's as it is for 700's: a 700c x 23 tire is going to give you a much harder bumpier ride than a 700c x 28 or so tire. I'm proposing that it's more likely that you are experiencing a bumpy ride because of having 23c skinny tires than it is because you are riding 650's.

[Eden]

Well, it's the same for 650's as it is for 700's: a 700c x 23 tire is going to give you a much harder bumpier ride than a 700c x 28 or so tire. I'm proposing that it's more likely that you are experiencing a bumpy ride because of having 23c skinny tires than it is because you are riding 650's.

Ummmm there are a myriad factors that have their affect on ride - frame material/design, tire width, tire pressure etc. I have 3 bikes, 2 different wheel sizes, but all 23c width and 3 different materials. The ti/650 has the smoothest ride with the least road noise and most bump absorption, followed closely by the all carbon/700c bike and lastly of course the aluminum/carbon fork/stays/700c bike. Oh - I almost forgot the Marin - all aluminum, wide tires - 700 x 35c, rides like a tank......I can take it over any bump or through any pothole I want to but I feel it plenty. I think I need to let some air out of the tires

[GLC1968]

I will be really interested to hear how you like this bike. When I ordered my 2005 titanium isis, I ordered the 17.5 rather than 19" to get the shorter top tube and 73 degree seat tube (i can't be set up on a 74 or greater sta like on the newer 19" frames). In my experience I can't be set up on most of the smaller sized 650 or 700c wheeled bikes, cuz either they steepen the seat tube too much for me (which only lengthens the reach since you need to slide your saddle back 1 cm per degree of STA to get the same position), or they have so much trail that the handling is too sluggish. So, I just picked up a 2003 steel isis, 19" but with the 700/24" wheel, 73 degree STA, 49 cm TT) for a song on ebay that I sent to a framebuilder to install s/s couplers and am building as a travel bike. In fact, she shipped today so I will let you know how I like her.

I was a bit worried about the STA as I believe my 19' classic is a 73 degree and I love it. But the 19.5 tt on the classic is a bit too short for me unless I'm happy sitting quite upright (I have short legs/long torso/short arms). My 19.5 tt Specialized feels right in length, but it's got a 76 degree STA which really works on the girly bits on long rides (and makes the tt feel longer as you mentioned). I figured the 74 degree STA with the longer tt on the 19' Isis should be right. I just hope that 74 feels as much improved over 76 as I am guessing!

I'll definitely let you know how it works out! :)

[Triskeliongirl]

FYI, I too felt too bunched up on my 19" classic as it is packaged, but found when I put a longer stem on it (10 cm) and long reach drop bars (nitto noodle) it is perfect, and lets me feel more balanced on the bike than if I had a longer TT with short reach stem and bars. I am sure the 19" new isis will work for you, and yes, the 74 degree seat tube angle will give you a 2 cm shorter reach for the same size TT than bikes with 76. For me though, even with a 73 degree STA I had to search really hard to find a laid back enough seatpost, and push my saddle back as far as it will go to get a good KOP, so the 74 was just not an option. I also struggled with this decision (17.5 vs 19 Isis). At least terry lets you return the bike for a refund/exchange if you aren't happy, so you could always size down if necessary. A good shop should also swap out bars and stem if necessary to customize the fit. But, if you were able to get a good KOP on a 76 STA then you will have no problem on 74 (lucky you!) and the bike will definitely look better. Please let us know how you like it!!

[lucye]

My first post here! Bumping this thread up to see whether things have changed much in the 650 vs 700 wheel discussion over the past four years. Debating on what to get for a custom build...thanks in advance!--lucy

[LeicaLad]

I'm currently exploring 650B to use on a vintage frame that is on its way to me now.

It they will fit (to be seen), I'm going with Grand Bois 42cm tires. The fans of this tire say it is even better than the Bismarck (see above).

I hope they'll fit!!!