Samhain ~ Halloween... my rant for the day... [Archive]

RoadRaven

11-02-2006, 08:46 AM

Hiya... late for Samhain/Halloween

I have read the couple of threads here and it certainly sounds like some of you had a really fun time. We've just "had it" over here in little old NZ and it really bugs me that we have. So my gripe here is with my own country and how we "do" this... not with any others... k?

Advertisers started to adopt the American interpretation of Halloween about 15-18 years ago and now it is huge. The sad thing is that very few people over here have the remotest clue why they are buying costumes and getting their kids to go trick or treating. Devout and evangelical Christians even get into it dressing as witches and such when on every other day they would probably burn me at the stake for my beliefs! Do they realise this is simialr to what Christians would perceive as a "Holy Day" to some?

Its crazy... its hypcritical... its ignorant.

Besides... in the Southern Hemisphere summer is beginning, we should not be observing winter festivals... we should be looking to and celebrating spring and summer. Its Beltane here... but do we celebrate that? Oh no... we adopt aspects of one of the oldest belief systems, we bastardise it with shallow money-making and we give no thought as to why we 'buy' (literally) into it.

*rolls eyes*
We should have just recently celebrated Easter here (Ostara) which before Christians overlayed the observance of the death and 'rebirth' of Jesus, was a celebration of new life - finally the winter was over (hence all the eggs and baby animals). But no, this crazy little mixed up country celebrates the new life and birth in Autumn, just as we head into winter...

We are still a young country... somehow we need to get over the parochial, wannabe-like-the-old-country mentality that colonistion brought and realise we can make our own rituals and festivals...

And guess what - on November the 5th - this weekend - we get to let off fireworks and hundreds of children and animals will be injured because of careless use, and many fires will be started (in fact that begins the moment those things go on sale to the public) and why?
Because a chap called Guy Fawkes tried to blow up the British Parliament - unsucessfully - in 1606
So, for the sake of money (what else is in it except the huge profits made by shops) we remember a terrorist who has nothing whatsoever to do with this country - European settlers had not even found this haven then!!!

Well... when I am in charge of this country... *wanders away muttering to herself...*

IFjane

11-02-2006, 09:12 AM

tattiefritter

11-02-2006, 09:21 AM

Hadn't realised we'd exported Guy Fawkes night - seems a bit pointless anywhere else but Britain (and in Britain too).

I know what you mean about the Americanisation of Halloween, where I grew up in Scotland it was normal to dress up in costumes of your own making, carve turnip lanterns (no pumpkins) and go "Guising" to all your neighbours where you then had to sing/dance/tell a joke to earn some money or sweets. Then it was back home to dook for apples. My mum did it as a child in the fifties as well. I'm not sure if it was a Scottish tradition or not as my grandparents were Irish and I know it is definitely an Irish tradition.

I've since moved down to England and Halloween seems to have been hijacked a bit - its all "trick or treat", pumpkins and nobody making their own costumes any more. The expectation is to be given sweets rather than earn it. There also seems to be a fair amount of older kids spoiling it by trying to get money. My boyfriend never went "guising" so only has the imported American traditions to go on.

As for fireworks...I can hear them going off now and they will do until the weekend. Again as a kid it never used to be like that, we had a neighbourhood bonfire that we collected stuff for, a guy and some fireworks. It obviously makes more sense standing round a bonfire on a cold Novembers night at the start of winter rather than a warm one at the start of summer!

Help, I'm sounding like my mother!

Bad JuJu

11-02-2006, 09:25 AM

It's all about co-opting something for other, often-nefarious purposes. Several centuries ago, the Catholic church co-opted Samhain and turned it into All Saint's Day in an attempt to silence pagan celebrations and lure people into the church. In our own time, capitalist interests have taken over pretty much every holiday there is in (successful) attempts to make money from them. :mad:

I'll admit that I'm pretty caught up in capitalism--you almost can't live in most Western cultures and NOT be--but enough is enough already!

mary9761

11-02-2006, 09:58 AM

I'm wishing the Brightest of Blessings albeit belatedly for Samhain and the new year. I noticed much activity in the last several days and weeks so indeed the veil was thin. As the wheel turns, I am wishing for renewed/improved health for many of us.
Blessed Be,
Mary

Cassandra_Cain

11-02-2006, 10:14 AM

I find it really sad about halloween RR - both in America, and from having lived in Europe.

What should be the ultimate DIY celebration of creativity, individuality, and a subtle challenge at the establisment, is nothing more than just another bonanza for the corporations and comercialization.

I even remember, way WAY back it seems now, when we'd go around all the neighborhoods, just the kids. Now you are more apt to see kids in America trotting inside some shopping mall.

Must everything be transformed into a mere commodity to be bought and sold?

light_sabe_r

11-02-2006, 02:07 PM

Luckily, We haven't reached the proportions New Zealand has... mainly because Melbourne Cup day is next Tuesday and most of us workers are busy getting Lunches (and drinks) organised for that.

I hadn't even heard of 5th November celebrations... Until I saw V FOR VENDETTA...

Australia was a "convict" settlement though. So I guess that means we saved up all our old world holidays for Christmas and Easter in the 1800s thus why none have been big over the last couple of years...

Road Raven, You guys Celebrate ANZAC Day right? that's by FAR the biggest Holiday we have over here from a non-religious, non-commercial point of view.

For the Northern Hemispherians, Australian and New Zealand Army Corps Day, The day when thousands of our fledgling army-men fought and died on Gallipoli's shores because Britain wanted us too! First World War It's the day we remember all the soldiers and honour those still serving our country. A non-denominational dawn service is held, usually on beaches or at the war memorials, under the big Jacuranda trees next to the war memorial, the last post is played many times that day, there's military parades and most people do go out to see the old soldiers and military nurses march. Then there's the Traditional Aussie customs of having barbequed Seafood, (and LAMB) and playing 2 up. Or going down to the local RETIRED SERVICES LEAGUE for a nice counter lunch.

Quillfred

11-02-2006, 08:01 PM

Parts of Mexico have been able to retain traditions in El Dia de los Muertos - Day of the Dead. I have been privileged in the past to participate in this holy holiday time in Oaxaca City - one of the southern states with large indiginous populations.

http://www.mexonline.com/features/daydead-oaxaca.htm

http://oaxacalive.com/muertos.htm

It is a family holiday that is very poignant, where families celebrate their deceased loved ones by building altars of remembrance decorated with pictures of the deceased, crosses, flowers, mezcal/tequila, food, etc.

The holidays start on the 31st up to the 2nd. Families clean and decorate gravesites in a similar fashion and stay up all night reminiscing and celebrating the memories of loved ones. One night is dedicated to infants.

Stores and houses are decorated for the holiday. There are impromptu plays in the street. Small groups of musicians play songs and encourage merriment and dance. There are bands playing in the town square in the evening.

It might sound macabre but it really isn't. Death is grieved, mocked, and laughed at. It is quite a refreshing change to our cultural relationship to death.

May justice and peace return to Oaxaca soon.

RoadRaven

11-02-2006, 10:53 PM

As long as $$ makes the world go round I am afraid there will be no changing it. The rest of us can rant and commiserate with one another. :cool: Glad to "meet" you!

Must everything be transformed into a mere commodity to be bought and sold?

Greetings from DownUnder, IF and Cassandra
Yes, you have hit the nail on the head of course... money money money... its just I feel so disappointed that families who can ill-afford to "buy into" it do... a waste of money - it reminds me of that episode on the Simpsons - was it "Love Day" - a manufacturers wet-dream bought into by people having no idea why they do who then chuck out all the rubbish - that that episode was a point well-made!

RoadRaven

11-02-2006, 10:56 PM

I'm not sure if it was a Scottish tradition or not as my grandparents were Irish and I know it is definitely an Irish tradition.

It is definately part of Gaelic pre-Christian tradition - think stories around Avalon, Morgaine and so forth... this time and these myths and stories are why my first name, Raven, has been chosen both for me and by me.
I am mostly Scottish if you "read" my genes and I have always felt drawn to parts of the UK - even before I was able to identify that I didn't think like so many around me. I look forward to visiting and walking in some of these places and breathing the air and feeling the touch of the magick that is undoubtedly still in the air.

The expectation is to be given sweets rather than earn it. There also seems to be a fair amount of older kids spoiling it by trying to get money. My boyfriend never went "guising" so only has the imported American traditions to go on.

And this is what happens when you don't give the kids the 'full' story - or at least one of the interpretations of why they might say trick or treat... for example; one of the stories says that if the Druids came to your door asking for a child for initiation (though Priests told people that Druids used children for blood sacrifice) then you would not be favoured by the Druids (or, the Priests would say, the druids would put an evil curse/spell on you). So the child was the treat - the dis-favour was the trick.
If children do not have understanding, then I guess it is inevitable in the capitalised West that it becomes "all bout me and what I can get"

Parts of Mexico have been able to retain traditions in El Dia de los Muertos - Day of the Dead. I have been privileged in the past to participate in this holy holiday time in Oaxaca City - one of the southern states with large indiginous populations.

Ah… and this is it… something is celebrated in all cultures I can think of to acknowledge the start or moiddle of winter, it usually incorporates reverence for the dead… so why forget our past in the flurry of commercialistation – for where is the future without that – and why turn either death, or the rythym of the world (our seasons) into a commercial enterprise?? It is always wonderful to hear people celebrating in old ways, and even incorporating it into new ways (when I think Mexico, I think a high Christian population – and yet old ways are not lost simply because of new ways). In this country, when missionaries brought Christianity, the old Goddesses and Gods of this land were not forsaken by Maori, and in fact are still acknowledged without conflict beside Christianity

RoadRaven

11-02-2006, 10:59 PM

Hadn't realised we'd exported Guy Fawkes night - seems a bit pointless anywhere else but Britain (and in Britain too).

I hadn't even heard of 5th November celebrations... Until I saw V FOR VENDETTA...
Australia was a "convict" settlement though. So I guess that means we saved up all our old world holidays for Christmas and Easter in the 1800s thus why none have been big over the last couple of years...

Well, an left over of our colonial past and one of the last "jewels" in the crown. I think UK immigrants to Oz had a definate advantage in extablishing their identity.

In NZ people longed for and missed the "old country" and even our radio and tv announcers as recently as 15 years ago had to talk with plums in their mouths.

Newcomers from the UK to Oz were pleased to leave the Old country behind - so many having being treated shabbily, so made there own identity.

The way these two countries have evolved despite being settled at the same time is quite different and I think we are getting more and more different culturally. With family here and in Oz I find it fascinating.

And yes, Tattie, ANZAC Day is big here - though for a while it seemed to lose support as the old people died, but in recent years the number of young ones (my children's age) turning up on for the Dawn Parade and remembering not only the old soldiers, but also the pointlessness of so many wars.

RoadRaven

11-02-2006, 11:06 PM

I'm wishing the Brightest of Blessings albeit belatedly for Samhain and the new year.

My last post in this series of relpies...

Yes, blessings for Samhain for those in the north, and for Beltane for those in the south…

Well met, those of you for whom this thread carries meaning

~Raven~

Dogmama

11-03-2006, 02:21 AM

they created some more - bosses day, administrative assistant's day, yada yada yada.

Brought to you by Hallmark.

I briefly watched a piece on the History channel about witches. They failed to say that women were the doctors and had the healing powers which led (in part) to their demonization by the male Christian leadership.

They also failed to note that after the infamous witch burning, Europe was beset by the plague - caused by burning the cats that caught the rats that spread the plague.

It's the rule of three in action.

Bad JuJu

11-03-2006, 05:19 AM

[COLOR="darkorchid"]It is definately part of Gaelic pre-Christian tradition - think stories around Avalon, Morgaine and so forth... this time and these myths and stories are why my first name, Raven, has been chosen both for me and by me.

Very interesting! The Raven in native Alaskan legends is a trickster figure--shape-changer, world-changer, always making some mischief. Is the Raven in Celtic legend similar?

And I find ravens themselves fascinating--their intelligence and their voices are remarkable.

Geonz

11-03-2006, 06:01 AM

RoadRaven I am ashamed to say I am from that country that has managed to commercialize every holiday there is, and when they got tired of that they created some more - bosses day, administrative assistant's day, yada yada yada. As long as $$ makes the world go round I am afraid there will be no changing it. The rest of us can rant and commiserate with one another. :cool: Glad to "meet" you!

IFJane, where do you ride in Madison County? You've got me pining for boulders and hills (I lived in Culpeper for a few years, and have been sneaking up to our cabins in Madison County since I was a wee baby, though I'm lucky to get there once a year now that I'm out on the prairie) Side roads, or mountain biking, or...? (Please pardon hijacking of post...)

Tater

11-03-2006, 06:16 AM

Merry meet,
I don't participate in the Halloween thing and many other Christian holidays for exactly the reasons posted here, specifically the commercial one! It seems like nowdays, every holiday is out to make money. Halloween (Samhain) is barely over and Christmas stuff is everywhere! When my brothers and I were young, our parents made sure to stress that it wasn't all about what kind and how many goodies were under the tree on Christmas morning. That is the total opposite of what I see today. Maybe that is why I feel much more comfortable with and continue to celebrate the Pagan tradations.
Blessed be

RoadRaven

11-06-2006, 09:16 AM

Yes, Dogmamma ( and IF)... the widely-held meaning of "witch" has been brought straight to you from the fear of male priests 'way back when', a new religion keen to take the unnatural power from women and which viewed women as evil (the original sin, the temptress - look what they did to the disciple Mary Magdalane) - we have the power to create life, we can bleed copiously every month and not die - and back then many women had knowledge of healing, and this knowledge is being found and shared again - amongst men and women, Christian and Pagan alike.

JuJu... in North America, the Raven often appears as a God but in Celtic understandings, the Raven is a signatory creature... the Raven is often associated with powerful Goddess figures.
The Celts believed the Raven to be one of three oldest animals (the other two being the trout and the stag). The Raven is a creature of wisdom (there is a saying/blessing wishing the "wisdom of the raven".
Ravens are associated with death transitions in Celtic lore - Raven is the carrier of souls between the spirit world and the earth plane. Raven can foretell the beginning of a new life, but usually is associated with the transition from life to the next place we travel.

Tater... like you I am sad at the commercialisation, and like your parents, my partner and I stress that these commercial events are actually not about buying more stuff. Their birthdays are when the money is spent.

bcipam

11-06-2006, 12:23 PM

I hadn't realized that our Halloween was now being celebrated outside the USA. How sad. Personally it's one holiday I can do without. I guess as a kid I enjoyed it - who wouldn't enjoy getting candy and sweets that would last a year but now the holiday is just well, too entirely commerical. My neighborhood "dresses up" its houses almost like it's Christmas time (and don't get me started about that!).

As an evangelical christian I don't get all weirded about the holiday celebrating pagan symbols and rituals - Halloween has long since advance from that - it's now just a great big event for candy makers and those who make home decorations. Kids have no idea what the holiday really means. It's sad to realize especially since the USA is the fattest nation in the world, that we celebrate a holiday by giving out candy to little kids who probably eat too much junk food and dont get enough exercise as it is.

SO NZ, so sorry for exporting the holiday. I feel your pain. :(

Bad JuJu

11-06-2006, 02:24 PM

JuJu... in North America, the Raven often appears as a God but in Celtic understandings, the Raven is a signatory creature... the Raven is often associated with powerful Goddess figures.
The Celts believed the Raven to be one of three oldest animals (the other two being the trout and the stag). The Raven is a creature of wisdom (there is a saying/blessing wishing the "wisdom of the raven".
Ravens are associated with death transitions in Celtic lore - Raven is the carrier of souls between the spirit world and the earth plane. Raven can foretell the beginning of a new life, but usually is associated with the transition from life to the next place we travel.
Thanks for that new info, RR. I've always been very interested in North American raven lore--it's intriguing to hear how other cultures have "interpreted" the raven. From your description, it sounds somewhat like the Irish banshee. Hmmm.....

Bad JuJu

11-06-2006, 02:27 PM

Isn't it great how many different beliefs are represented in this thread? So far, I see a couple of pagans, several Christians, at least one atheist, and I don't know what else. And NOBODY is flaming or being flamed! That's my idea of something to celebrate.:)

Cassandra_Cain

11-06-2006, 02:32 PM

latelatebloomer

11-06-2006, 03:22 PM

This seems like a perfect time for us all to sing that Dar Williams song about the Christians & the Pagans (in one family) having Thanksgiving dinner together (but this time only pumpkin pies are burning.)

I love Halloween.* Of course, I live next to a cemetary, call my little place Goblin Farm, and am very clear that if I lived in "olden days" I'd have been burned the first time anyone heard me talking to animals... & plants!

(*I live in a tiny rural village, so it doesn't get crass.)

Geonz

11-06-2006, 03:36 PM

I thought it was Christmas... wasn't there a tree? Now *that's* a song that brings tears to my eyes :-)

I was a teensy bit disappointed that almost everybody at my friend's Day of the Dead party dressed scary, but then I debated with myself about trying to pretend to be from a culture you aren't vs. absorbing just a little bit of it into your own...

latelatebloomer

11-06-2006, 06:28 PM

Could've been Christmas. I tend to quote off the top of my head. Margot caught me passing off Julian of Norwich for Hildegard deBingen. The depth of knowlege on this forum is apparently boundless!

RoadRaven

11-07-2006, 09:09 AM

Lyrics here for those interested - it is more fun to listen to the song if you can though...

Amber called her uncle, said We're up here for the holiday,
Jane and I were having Solstice, now we need a place to stay.
And her Christ-loving uncle watched his wife hang Mary on a tree,
He watched his song hang candy canes all made with red dye number three.

He told his niece, Its Christmas Eve, I know our life is not your style,
She said, Christmas is like Solstice, and we miss you and its been awhile,
So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
And just before the meal was served, hands were held and prayers were said,
Sending hope for peace on earth to all their gods and goddesses.

The food was great, the tree plugged in, the meal had gone without a hitch,
Till Timmy turned to Amber and said, Is it try that youre a wtich?
His mom jumped up and said, The pies are burning, and she hit the kitchen,
And it was Jane who spoke, she said, Its true, your cousins not a Christian,
But we love trees, we love the snow, the friends we have, the world we share,
And you find magic from your God, and we find magic everywhere,
So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
And where does magic come from? I think magics in the learning,
Cause now when Christians sit with Pagans only pumpkin pies are burning.

When Amber tried to do the dishes, her aunt said, Really, no, dont bother.
Ambers uncle saw how Amber looked like Tim and like her father.
He thought about his brother, how they hadnt spoken in a year,
He thought hed call him up and say, Its Christmas and your daughters here.

He thought of fathers, sons and brothers, so his own son tug his sleeve, saying,
Can I be a Pagan? Dad said, Well discuss it when they leave.
So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
Lighting trees in darkness, learning new ways from the old, and
Making sense of history and drawing warmth out of the cold.

RoadRaven

11-07-2006, 09:11 AM

LateLate... I compiled a CD from our collection which I called "Pagan Pride" for friends last year as a gift for Summer Solstice... not all with reference to pagans, some just about how wonderful this world is - its a folk-rock mix...

It began with Dar's song "The Christians and the Pagans" (no-one else in NZ seems to have heard of her... thanks to Joan Baez who has "introduced" to us many artists we may never have heard because she sings their songs or includes them at her concerts because she recognises their talent and wants others to know... people like Dar, and Richard Shindell and Lucy Kaplansky)

Some other songs my compilation CD also includes;
'Gypsy Fair' by Hothouse Flowers ...you'll find some freedom there...

'The Whole of the Moon' by Jennifer Warnes ... I pictured a rainbow, you held it in your hands...

'Calling the Moon' by Dar Williams (Richard Shindell also sings a good version of this) ... I promised the fields I'd return from now on...

'Golden Feather' by Robbie Robertson & the Red Road Ensemble ...howling like coyotes at the naked moon...

'Fleur de Lis' by Richard Shindell ...I adore thee Mother Mary but would change me back to a witch...

'Cup of Wonder' by Jethro Tull ...we accept your invitation and would bring you Beltane's flower...

'Solstice Bells' by Jethro Tull ...joyful as the silver planets run...

'Jack o the Green' by Jethro Tull ...he drinks from the empty acorn cup...

'Fire at Midnight' by Jethro Tull ...build a little fire this midnight, its good to be back home with you...

'Acres Wild' by Jethro Tull ...come with me to the Winged Isle, Northern father's Western child...

'Lights of Louisianne' by Jennifer Warnes ...set her dancing on the mantle like a piece of star...

‘This is me’ by …when dreams were movies god made for me…

‘Ghost Dance’ by Robbie Robertson & the Red Road Ensemble ...we shall live again…...

latelatebloomer

11-07-2006, 06:13 PM

and on top of all that, you thow in Ghost Dance. I think I have a crush on you.

mary9761

11-07-2006, 06:43 PM

I have always liked Enchantress by Gypsy, which I see is FINALLY available on CD. I may have to try to get it as I'd worn my tape out. "Bring Back the Light" was alway one of my favorites as well as the title track "Enchantress". "Bring Back the Light" has been used in Winter Solstice ritual several times.

Quillfred

11-07-2006, 07:08 PM

Have you ever heard of Loreena McKennitt? "All Souls Night" is the first song I ever heard by her. It actually got some airplay here on the FM radio.

http://www.quinlanroad.com/explorethemusic/thevisit.asp?id=80

Several of her songs seem to fit on your CD. You can listen to songs by navigating on the link above. She is a Canadian women who rarely tours. I was able to see her once.

Hope you enjoy. :D

Lise

11-07-2006, 07:32 PM

I briefly watched a piece on the History channel about witches. They failed to say that women were the doctors and had the healing powers which led (in part) to their demonization by the male Christian leadership.

They also failed to note that after the infamous witch burning, Europe was beset by the plague - caused by burning the cats that caught the rats that spread the plague.

It's the rule of three in action.

How wonderful to stumble upon this thread! I wish I'd found it last week. I am a midwife, and one of the things I remember and celebrate at this time of year is the memory of my predecessors who were murdered for standing up for women and children, for healing when healing was politically inexpedient.

I am of Northern European ancestry. I don't doubt that Samhein was a holy day to my ancestors, as it is to me. I work primarily with Mexican families, and have absorbed some of their traditions. I honor the divine in the Virgen of Guadalupe/Tonantzin, I celebrate Dia de Muertos. If you're ever in Chicago at this time of year, please go to the Mexican Fine Arts Museum. They have a wonderful Dia de Muertos exhibit up from late September to early December.

It makes sense to me that this is when the new year begins. We cycle through, touch spirits with those who went before, and move on to the new year. I'm grateful for the richness that learning about Samhein and Dia de Muertos has brought to my life. My sister calls me a "Polyreligion Monotheist". I took one of those internet tests, and came out essentially as I was raised--Presbyterian in my values! As Juju commented, I love it that this thread has comments from many points of belief, and all of it respectful. I bow to you. Blessed be. L.

LBTC

11-07-2006, 08:30 PM

I'm glad this thread keeps rising to the top. I'm still trying to "find my voice" on this subject.

In the meantime, though, I wanted to honour each of you for your respective beliefs and for being so accepting of each other.

I knew that I hung out with a great group of gals!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

mary9761

11-08-2006, 10:57 AM

I LOVE Loreena McKinnett, I actually saw a local dance troupe do All Souls Night as a dance piece and other related songs as well. It gave me goose flesh as they came out first with lit torches in a fully darkened theatre, they built up into a spiral dance and the power was phenomenal! The memories still give me wonderful shivers. I have many of her CDs and really enjoy the middle eastern flavour a lot of her music has as well.

I too am very glad I saw this thread and that everyone appears to be quite tolerant of our differences. The most important thing is that our love of cycling brings us together where we may never have otherwise met.