It's official; I suck at climbing

[indysteel]

Yesterday's group ride was rather hilly (for Indiana) and included a rather steep hill about 25 miles into the ride that killed me. Embarrassingly, I had to get off the bike and walk about half of it because my legs just gave out. I started cycling this summer and, because central Indiana is relatively flat, I don't encounter much in the way of hills. That said, there are several "big" rides each year, including the Hilly Hundred--that include some tough climbing and I'd like to improve this part of my riding. Hills should be fun, but as it is now, they scare me.

My weaknesses on climbing seem to be two-fold. My breath gets very "wheezy" when I'm pushing too hard or when I have to get out of the saddle. I try to spin at a faster RPM, but that can be taxing too. Also, my legs get really tired from repeated climbs. I don't know if it's a leg strength thing or a lactic-acid thing.

Help me get in touch with my inner goat. Clearly, I need to seek out hills in my training regimine. What can I do in the off season to train? I have a meeting with a trainer (and competive cyclist) tomorrow at the Y to develop a weight-training program that is geared towards cycling (both to strengthen was is taxed during cycling and what tends to get neglected/inbalanced). I know I need to work on my glutes big-time. Do any of you have any specific suggestions in advance of my training session that I can discuss with him?

I'm also taking two spinning classes each week so that should help too. Any spinning-specific pointers or advice?

Thanks.

Kate

[mimitabby]

Oh please don't be too embarrassed at getting off to walk up a hill.
I do this sometimes too. It isn't worth it to me to burst a carotid artery just so I can stay on the bike going up a hill. Sometimes I get off because i am going so slow that i am afraid of falling over!
and SOMETIMES i get off and walk because I don't want to get overheated.
There are lots of reasons. maybe you can train on hills that are just a little hard for you and when they become easier, tackle a bigger hill?

[Bad JuJu]

I haven't yet gotten off my bike and walked up a hill, but notice that I say "yet"--anything is possible. I sukc at climbing too. I guess it's not so much of a problem because Florida is flatter than many other areas, though not completely flat--we have our share of wall-like hills here, just not so many of them, and no actual mountains that I know of.

So far (again, I emphasize, "so far") I've been successful at gearing way down and spinning up hills, but I am SUH-LOOOOWWWW, and both my bikes have triples, and the touring bike has what I can only describe as a tree-climbing gear.

So I guess it's worth looking at how low your lowest gears are and whether you could do much to go lower, if you need to.

Hill Slugs Are People, Too ;)

[love2bike]

Indysteel,

I too need to work on hills. I had some problems on a hilly day 2 of the Gateway MS 150 this past September. Lots of people were walking up hills, including me.....there's no shame in it! But, I came back determined to do better next year. I'm into my 3rd week of spinning classes and hope this helps. I would be very interested in what weight training exercises your trainer gives you to help with cycling. Let us know what she/he says.

Patty

[Offthegrid]

I'm horrible at hills, which is not surprising considering my weight. I did an MS ride a couple of years ago (before I took a year off) and was actually going up a hill so slowly at one point that I thought I would fall over. If it makes you feel better, I saw some cyclists -- skinny dudes with a biking cap and everything -- walking up one of the very bad hills.

On the plus side, I don't even have to pedal on the downhill and I fly by people. :o

[Nanci]

I'm positive I suck more at hills than you! (Just search for my ride report called "Unto These Hills" if you want proof...)

When I'm in serious hills, like mountains, I've found that A. the more just plain riding time and distance I have put in, the more endurance I have for hill climbing, and B. it's ok to stop for a minute, catch your breath, then continue on riding if you don't want to give in and walk. It takes a _very_ short time to recover. If you have a hard time starting up again, if the hill is steep- plan ahead- watch for a driveway or something to stop in that will let you start off horizontally or even slightly down hill.

It gets better with time-

I have a HORRIBLE time in the morning when the humidity is high- it's hard for me to breathe.

Something else that helps, and it's hard to do, is ride your own hill- don't pay attention to how fast everyone else can go. If you try to keep up at a pace harder than you can handle, you won't last as long as if you'd stuck to a slow but comfortable pace.

Something else that helps is only look at the foot or so of ground in front of your wheel. That way you can't see how much further it is, and can't see the incline! This works great for me.

Oh- I have a triple, and before Six Gap, my mechanic put on a better hill-climbing cassette for me. I think it helped some.

Good luck...

Nanci

[mimitabby]

When I'm in serious hills, like mountains, I've found that A. the more just plain riding time and distance I have put in, the more endurance I have for hill climbing, and B. it's ok to stop for a minute, catch your breath, then continue on riding if you don't want to give in and walk. It takes a _very_ short time to recover. If you have a hard time starting up again, if the hill is steep- plan ahead- watch for a driveway or something to stop in that will let you start off horizontally or even slightly down hill.


Something else that helps, and it's hard to do, is ride your own hill- don't pay attention to how fast everyone else can go. If you try to keep up at a pace harder than you can handle, you won't last as long as if you'd stuck to a slow but comfortable pace.

Something else that helps is only look at the foot or so of ground in front of your wheel. That way you can't see how much further it is, and can't see the incline! This works great for me.

Oh- I have a triple, and before Six Gap, my mechanic put on a better hill-climbing cassette for me. I think it helped some.

Good luck...

Nanci

what she said. PERFECTLY SENSIBLE, wise counsel!

[ACG]

I suck at hillls too. I am not embarassed at all to shift into the granny gear and just pedal really, really slow. I have had recent breathing issues which I can relate to allergies.

The only way to get better at hills is to ride hills. I'm not sure about spinning class techniques. However when I ride my bike on a trainer I often switch to a harder gear in increments of 5 minutes, which is sort of a simulated hill.

Good luck

[Cassandra_Cain]

Hills can be difficult and really, you do what you have to do to get up there - if walking is it, so be it, absolutely no worries.

Still, a lot of times among riders and in clubs I keep hearing about some people being good climbers as if it were some mysterious or innate ability. Really it just comes down to fitness, persistance, and, simply numbers (p-w ratio).

I hadn't ridden in the mountains in a few weeks, where I'd been doing a lot or work indoors on the trainer and sprint training on the road. Then went out and easily set a PB on the biggest mountain in town. That just reflects an increase in fitness, nothing else.

Pace yourself properly, get (if you don't already have) the right gearing, and stick with it. There's no hill you can't climb with lots of work and determination. :)

[indysteel]

First off, is that a new picture of your dog Bad Ju Ju? I love it!

Second, thanks for the advice. I do have a triple with a 12-25 cassette so I think my gearing is appropriate for climbing. When some of you talk of "mountains," I feel really guilty because all we have in Indiana are hills. Admittedly, some of them are rather steep, e.g., 17-20% grade, but they're all relatively short. Because they're so steep, it's hard to restart if I stop to catch my breatch because you need so much momentum to get moving again.

I try hard to remember that I am a newbie and that I should keep my expectations in check. What's frustrating for me is that many of my friends who ride have been doing so for a long time and take it for granted that it takes time and training to climb well. One friend in particular has done the Triple Bypass twice and climbed Mt. Mitchell. She talked me into the Hilly Hundred and, in so doing, kept dismissing my climbing fears/issues. (I would note that she herself completed the Hilly w/o using her little ring--using instead her 42-teeth middle ring). I appreciated her encouragment, but I think it helps somtimes when people acknowledge that these skills don't just develop overnight, nor are they just a product of innate ability.

Anyway, I'll report back after my meeting with my trainer. Hopefully, if I do a bit of everything in the coming year--weights, actual climbing, spinning, interval training--I'll get better at climbing (and a lot of other things too). Here's hoping!

[Bikingmomof3]

Help me get in touch with my inner goat.

Kate

I loved this! :) I have absolutely no tips. I have not been able to ride for so long I think I forgot how. :( Not to mention, I live in a flat section of Ohio.

Keep practicing, you will master them.:)

[Meaux]

Oh thank God it's not just me. I am terrible at hills. I was so bad that I stopped half way up, and then tried to start again, causing me to fall over and bruise myself horribly. I hate hills right now.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Well Meaux, I think that trying to get going from a standstill halfway up a steep hill is about the hardest thing one can try to do. Don't feel bad!

A couple of times I've tried to get going up a steep hill that started up at a right angle right off a highway, couldn't get any head start rolling or momentum going at all, and just ground to a halt after three or four wobbly pedal strokes and walked up! Somehow I survived! ;) I'm better at getting started up a hill from a standstill than I was a couple months ago though.

[liberty]

I am SOOOO happy we are on the subject of stopping on a hill and starting again! Nanci- thanks for recommending the "pull off in a driveway, or start at a horizontal angle" to get momentum. I have been mulling and mulling over this issue, as I know sooner or later I will be stuck with some monster hill or a stop sign on a hill... Do you turn around and go downhill for a second and swing back around?

Any other recommendations on how to start from a dead stop on a hill?

And if you are clipped in, and the hill is HORRIBLE, HOW do you unclip before you loose all momentum and fall over? Figure you fall over from loss of momentum or from not being able to unclip in time (or a combo of the two).

[alforfun]

I am just glad to see I am not the only one wheezing up hills. I thought it was just that I started this road bike thing at a -cough- later age, and perhaps was suffering from emphysema or some other such lung disease. I too, have walked up some, but persistance is all, and I have improved. Which is good, since there aint no place to ride here in the Hudson Valley without going up a hill

[Meaux]

I am just glad to see I am not the only one wheezing up hills. I thought it was just that I started this road bike thing at a -cough- later age, and perhaps was suffering from emphysema or some other such lung disease. I too, have walked up some, but persistance is all, and I have improved. Which is good, since there aint no place to ride here in the Hudson Valley without going up a hill

Age has nothing to do with it. I'm 27 and riding up hills is probably one of the must painful things I've ever done physically. I hate that feeling of getting out of breath. I feel like I'm never going to breathe again! I look forward to the day I shoot right up a hill. That day will come in 30 years. HA! :D

[miffy'sFuji]

We have a lot of hills here. I started riding regularly in April and could not ride all of the way up the final half mile to my house without stopping. It's an elevation gain of about 230 ft. and ~8-12 percent grade in various stretches.

My suggestions are to take it as slowly as you possibly can (3 mph?) until you can make it the whole stretch. While you are pedaling, concentrate on deep breaths and your heart rate. I don't stand, especially if I have a long haul (and a heavy backpack). My helpful thing is to count to myself. At about 189 I'm all of the way up my hill. = )

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Well just to reassure a few of you....
I started riding 4 months ago at 52. The only exercise I ever did before that was walking about 3 miles a day for about 8 months before starting biking. Despite all that walking...
Nothing prepared me for how out of breath I got when biking up hills in the beginning. I was literally gasping for air, LOUD gasping breaths, and my heart pounding. :( :( :( This happened often, on most hills except for the smallest ones.
My DH (who usually rode with me back in the beginning) was SO patient while I kept stopping over and over to catch my breath and let my heart slow down. Like some of you, i suspected maybe I had asthma too, or heart disease or something!
As the weeks went by though, I gradually began to get less out of breath. My heart didn't race as much. After 2 months I could pedal up some hills I had to walk up before. I needed to stop and rest less often. My awful gasping slowly became just heavy labored breathing.
Now after 4 months, there are just a few hills around where I live that I can't pedal up, *mostly* without stopping. My heartbeat never feels uncomfortably pounding. My labored breathing has now become more like just deep mouth breathing.
And when going up steep hills, it's now usually my legs that will limit me rather than my breathlessness. That's a good thing I figure! :) I know I'm still not even halfway yet to the fitness level I would like to be at- maybe next year!
My DH and I would like to do some touring next year to visit friends in MA, VT, and NH. Right now my longest rides are 40 miles. When I can do 50 or 60 for several days in a row, I think I will be ready for that. Only a few months ago I was exhausted after 10 miles.
Just keep pedalling at whatever level you can. Pedal, pedal, pedal- it happens slowly...really! :)

[Cassandra_Cain]

I am just glad to see I am not the only one wheezing up hills. I thought it was just that I started this road bike thing at a -cough- later age, and perhaps was suffering from emphysema or some other such lung disease. I too, have walked up some, but persistance is all, and I have improved. Which is good, since there aint no place to ride here in the Hudson Valley without going up a hill

Momentary thread hijack....

See I knew there was a reason I liked your avatar here - I have the same bike! :D

Now back to hills :)

[Brandy]

I'm still trying to find my inner goat as well...I want to like climbing so badly, but while I'm doing it, I just keep thinking about how much I want to be at the top...like yesterday! :p That said, I've only been riding since May, so I know that my time will come. I do believe that I came in with an advantage because I had been Spinning for months and months before that and our gym starts a periodization schedule in January. We started with aerobic base building and after that we moved onto endurance and then on to strength...which was basically two months of profiles that focused on strengthening the legs through climbing. I'm convinced that this gave me an edge when I started cycling.

[Dogmama]

First off - a 17 - 20% grade is a mountain!!

1. Hit the botttom of the hill as fast as you can. Momentum is your friend.
2. Shift slightly before you need to shift so you don't blow out your legs.
3. If you are going to stand, shift to a slightly harder gear. When you sit, you'll have the easier gear to fall back on.
4. Ride hills. If you have to go slowly, do it slowly. Speed and endurance will come.

In the weight room you want to mimic cycling:

1. Do your exercises with single legs & switch them out. In other words, if you are doing lunges, alternate your lunges. Ditto with leg extensions, hamstring curls,etc.

2. To hit the glutes - bulgarian split squats. This is a great glute exercise. It is basically a lunge, except your back leg is on a support, so you cannot push off with it. It works quads and glutes. Obviously, you cannot switch these out easily.

Back up to a bench, chair, aerobic steps, no higher than knee height to begin. Stand about 3 feet from the bench.

Put one leg on the bench, shoe lace side down. You may need to be next to a wall or something to use for balance in the beginning.

Now, lunge. Do not let your knee go past your toes (or not very much.) Concentrate on bringing yourself up using your glutes.

[indysteel]

Bulgarian Split Squat? I'll have to try that.....

Although I wish all who responded were as good at climbing as they wanted to be, but all the same, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's struggling with it.

Brandy, I am so envious of your periodization spinning class. I will have to talk to the people at the Y where I go about offering something like that. If you have any more specifics, I'd love to hear about it....

Kate

[Cassandra_Cain]

If folks are lifting weights because they want to be more 'toned' or 'buff' or help preserve their bone density, etc - then cool, do it :)

I do not think that weight training, of any form, will help you with climbing on a bike though. Forces in endurance cycling, are quite low - comparable to climbing stairs 2 at a time even.

For sprint and track racing, I think weights can be very useful.

The reason a cyclist has a hard time on a climb is because their body cannot supply what her muscles need in order to keep working at a high rate due to cardiac output and oxygen delivery.

[indysteel]

If folks are lifting weights because they want to be more 'toned' or 'buff' or help preserve their bone density, etc - then cool, do it :)

I do not think that weight training, of any form, will help you with climbing on a bike though. Forces in endurance cycling, are quite low - comparable to climbing stairs 2 at a time even.

For sprint and track racing, I think weights can be very useful.

The reason a cyclist has a hard time on a climb is because their body cannot supply what her muscles need in order to keep working at a high rate due to cardiac output and oxygen delivery.

Interesting....I assumed that weight training to strengthen (at least) my glutes would help. Several of my cycling books speak favorably of weight training (in moderation) to help strengthen certain muscles that are needed to climb but which are hard to actually develop unless you climb a lot. From what I've read, climbing is a function of both aerobic capacity and leg strength? Not so?

[Cassandra_Cain]

Interesting....I assumed that weight training to strengthen (at least) my glutes would help. Several of my cycling books speak favorably of weight training (in moderation) to help strengthen certain muscles that are needed to climb but which are hard to actually develop unless you climb a lot. From what I've read, climbing is a function of both aerobic capacity and leg strength? Not so?

Hi....

You are familiar with Lance Armstrong I take it right? So a few years ago he did a blazingly fast time up in a Time Trial on a very famous and difficult mountain stage in the Tour de France, Alpe d'Huez. If you look at the watts he produced, take into account his cadence, then the 'force' he was putting out with both of his legs was equal to about 55 pounds. There are few adults I know of, who can't do 55 pounds with 2 legs, I mean just climbing stairs requires that much....and more.

Lance reportedly rode up that mountain at around 475 watts or so. You know what though? I am certain you could do 475 watts - just not for an hour or anything close to it obviously, and neither can I!

Also, consider when you sprint you are exerting far more force than on any long climb, so you already have the 'strength' to do those climbs. The reason you, me, or anyone else typically struggles on a climb is because our bodies cannot meet the demands of our muscles - delivering oxygen, fuel mix, etc...and why? Our lactate thresholds, Vo2max, etc aren't developed enough for what we are trying to do.

In addition, weight training doesn't nearly replicate the joint angles and velocities of cycling. That's along the lines of the whole specificity principle, so those gains are not going to be very transferrable.

I'm not telling you weight training is bad or that you shouldn't do it - there are lots of benefits to it.

What I do think is that it won't make you a better climber on a bike. It can make you a better track sprinter or pursuiter - though if you gain weight (from muscle gains), it can then cost you in climbing and other aspects of riding.

[eclectic]

Indysteel : I would really like to know what your trainer lays out for you. We don't have anyone around here to do that for cycling.

Interesting points CassandraCain - some rethinking material

Re: hills - I suck at them too, they are hard and haven't gotten any easier. I was riding one day last spring with a very experienced rider going up one of our steeper hills after already riding 40 miles (my longest ride at that time) I asked him how and when do hills get easy and he said NEVER, they may get easier but never easy.

I practiced hills everytime I went out this summer to build up my endurance. they never really got easier but eventually I never had to walk

One of the things I really learned over the summer is how and when to shift, how and when to stand up and timing when riding rollers (one hill after another)

shift before you think you need to - as soon as your cadence drops and you feel pressure shift down. Even in my lowest gear there are some hills around here that I can't spin up, I just do the best I can.

If I have a down hill first I get going as fast as I can then shift down as soon as I feel myself losing speed on the uphill.
- I pretty much start in my front big ring and about 3/4 up in back
- then I shift my front ring, not my back until i get to granny
- then i start shifting the back as needed.
- Depending on how much I have left of the hill adn how much energy I have left I stand to "top it off" (if it is a long grinder -1/2 mile or more I just sit and pedal)

As a last resort and if there is no traffic I have been known to switch back (like slalom skiing) across my lane of traffic ( I NEVER go into the oncoming lane going up hill)

Mentally I think : "this is only (5,10,15) minutes, of my life, it will soon be over - hills end" contrary to WIND :eek:

I figure if I am only going 6mph that is still faster than I can walk!

[aicabsolut]

I had my first encounter with what looked like some pretty decent hills a few weekends ago--and lots of them over a 25 mile loop (only 5 miles or so about 11 miles in gave my legs a break). I had gone up one long twice hill a week before, but nothing like this. My breathing did get shallower than I'd like, and I had a couple moments of panic where I thought I'd have to stop and didn't know how to do that without falling. I also discovered my poor standing and pedaling skills just made me go SLOWER when I stood rather than giving me more power. I didn't have a computer, but my overall time was better than I thought, considering I am conservative on the descents.

What helped me was forcing myself to keep a breathing rhythm, even if it bordered on gasping. When you are putting that much energy into your muscles, if you make sure you take deep breaths, you really don't need to gasp, but you've got to focus. I'm not sure how to explain it, but it was like when I used to sprint in track. At sprinting pace, I'd breathe slower than at just a fast run. More forcibly, but slower. I couldn't keep up that effort for long running, but while I was still trying to enlist every muscle to get me up a hill on a bike, that kind of effort was something I could sustain minutes longer than sprinting...it still felt predominantly anaerobic at times, but like more of a slow burn than an explosion of energy.

I want to second the advice only to look a little in front of you, not way up the hill. Take some breaks in smaller gears, but remember that a bigger gear will get you there faster. Sometimes, that's motivation enough to keep your legs spinning fast enough that you don't have to downshift. So is the panicked feeling that you might not make it. I was more afraid of toppling over in the event I had to give up and stop than I was of the rest of the climb, so I made sure I didn't stop. Adrenaline is a wonderful thing. Luckily, I haven't encountered a mountain.

[indysteel]

Just to add more to the dialogue. From VeloNews "training" archives:

Why can't I climb?

Dear Joe,
I'm a recreational roadie who spends some time on a mountain bike as well. I've been actively riding for four years. I put in 100-150 miles a week, with mostly mixed rides - by virtue of living in remote Wyoming, I don't get many flat, easy spins!

Here is my challenge. I feel fit, but I cannot climb hills. I'm 5'11", approximately 160 pounds, resting HR of 44, no chronic illness, and I can't ride up hills! I do well on the flats between any rises, which means I make my pulls when riding with a group, I can spin around 22-24 mph, and am reasonably comfortable at that pace for many miles. But as soon as the pitch increases I shut down.

My primary riding partner, an ex-pro, has quizzed me about what my body feels like when this happens. Basically, I shut down. I don't feel pain, but I cannot continue riding at a strong pace. My muscles feel like they are not getting enough oxygen and my RR goes very high (never measured). I slow down to a slower pace, and push hard to the top - once there, I can pick my pace back up and have to fight to get back to a group. This has not improved, even with many miles on my bike and with consistent riding.

So, do I just need to train differently (strength, cardio), eat differently (change my intake before riding), hydrate differently, lose weight, or is there some underlying cardiovascular issue that could predispose me to being a sloth on the hills?

Thanks for taking a stab.

J.R. in Wyoming

Dear J.R.,
Your inability to climb well can be improved if you find the key limiter and incorporate an objective plan to improve your fitness in progressive stages.

In most cases cyclists looking to climb better need to improve force and muscular endurance. You first need to have sufficient force in order to push hard on the pedals as the grade of the road increases. Ideally, the force-specific workouts are started within the preparation phase and end within the base phase. You can build force in the weight room with a cycling-specific routine and periodized program. Force can also be developed on the bike with low rpm (below 70 rpm), seated hill (or headwind) efforts. If you do force work on the bike, begin with two-minute efforts and progress, over several weeks, to six-minute intervals with full recoveries. Staying seated will also develop your hip flexors, which can help your climbing economy. Be cautious with these intervals if you have knee issues, or do not do them at all.

After you have developed sufficient force you can start to incorporate muscular endurance workouts by starting with six-minute intervals at heart-rate zone 3 (10-15 percent below lactate threshold). Gradually increase the number of reps within a workout over several weeks. Your goal is to progress to one solid effort of 45-60 minutes of zone 3 intensity. Once you have reached this goal, develop a workout once a week that incorporates heart-rate zone 4 (within 10 beats of lactate threshold) into six-minute intervals, with two-minute recoveries. This will dramatically improve your climbing ability if you have first developed force, economy and muscular endurance.

You need to determine which basic ability is lacking and what level of intensity you need to emphasize. The best way to improve your climbing is with a program that covers many months, starting with a preparation phase, moving to a base phase, and ending with a build period.

You mention body weight as a possible limiter. While I'm sure losing a few pounds might help, I don't think your 2.2 pounds per inch of body weight (you are 5'11" and 160 pounds) is of major concern. Assuming endurance is not an issue, and you have problems on climbs even early in a ride, this leaves the possibilities of economy (skills), force and muscular endurance to improve.

Thanks for inquiring with us. Good luck with your training.

Dirk Friel

[Cassandra_Cain]

I've read the trainingbible and am familiar with the Friel's (joe & dirk) methods. I definitely have issues with some of the things they suggest....both the idea of having riders put huge amounts of LSD training as a way of gaining fitness and this issue with weight training. The latter is the subject here, not the former so I won't get into that.

Also cadence is one component of power, but hardly the end all be all. There is no best cadence, and you'll notice riders doing TT's will use a high cadence to make their best power, while on climbs it typically lower, and in crits it is entirely different too. Training at 50, 80, or 100 is, in of and by itself - key phrase - not going to make you any fitter, though it can improve your leg speed or economy if those are issues.

Forces exerted in endurance cycling are very low - I didn't arbitrarily decide that or make it up, it is simple physics. I can give many examples of this via any of a number of my power files on long mountain climbs - and you can tell me if the forces were high.

If people want to lift weights, great, there's much in favor of the activity but IMO, it will not make you faster on a bike, except on a track!

Ok on to other topics, have fun with those hills! :)

[alforfun]

All I know is, I do lift weights. I can run up four flights of stairs at work without breathing hard. However....it is NOT FUN going up hills, but I think you get better mostly just by biking. At least thats the way it appears to me. So....hopefully Ill get more biking in before the big freeze sets in.

[bacarver]

Struggling up a hill vs sitting on a couch doing nothing.
Walking up a hill vs smoking a cigarette.
Being slower than the others vs swilling beer.
Being a "newbie" vs not even owning a bike.
Riding only 10 miles vs being unable to walk up a flight of stairs.
Coming in last in a race vs being addicted to junk food.

No matter how often I fail to measure up to my ideal bikie image, I will always be proud of myself because I'm out there doing my best to stay healthy and active.

We're out there because we believe in the power and freedom our bikes give us. We should measure ourselves only against our abilities and not others.

Bike on!

Barb

[Dogmama]

C-Cain - Lance lifted weights when he wasn't racing. Big weights. Since I started doing serious weight training, my climbing has improved remarkably. I was always pleased with my ability to climb, but now I can blast up hills.

I found the following articles that support weight training and cycling performance. This is from the Journal of Applied Physiology:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/5/2285

The conclusion is:"These data do not demonstrate any negative performance effects of adding heavy-resistance training to ongoing endurance-training regimens. They indicate that certain types of endurance performance, particularly those requiring fast-twitch fiber recruitment, can be improved by strength-training supplementation."

This was in pub med:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=1886483&dopt=Citation

The conclusion is: "These findings indicate that strength training improves cycle endurance performance independently of changes in VO2max. This improved performance appears to be related to increases in LT and leg strength." (LT= lactate threshold). So, apparently they found that strength training does increase lactate threshold.

I think you'll find that competitive cyclists do strength training in the off season. The theory of specificity is important, but augmenting training with other modalities is the rule rather than the exception. Case in point: Lance increased his ability to cycle in thin mountain air by sleeping in a special tent that reduced the amount of oxygen he received. The theory of specificity would require him to endlessly blast up mountain hills.

I can sit in the drops longer because I do bench presses & tricep exercises. I can climb longer because I do squats which strength my glutes and lower back. When my muscles don't quit, I can work on my lung capacity. And I become a better cyclist, and a LOT better at climbing hills. And, I wasn't a bad hill climber to start with (she says modestly!)

[Kathi]

I'm piping in here mainly because I know the type of hills you are talking about. I used to live in Cincinnati and have done many miles in the Southwestern Ohio, Kentucky and hilly parts of Indiana.

Many of the hills you will encounter are "rollers" which means they are short downhills with short uphills. It's tempting to coast down those hills but don't. Keep your pace by spinning down them. This will give you enough momentum to make it up the other side. Like Eclectic said, when you start to lose momentum start shifting your big chainring. You may spin a little and think you are in the wrong ring but your speed will catch up. Then start to shift the rear cassette.

Hill climbing takes practice and timing the shifting. If you have a heart rate monitor use it and learn what your hill climbing heart rate should be and use it to pace yourself.

Yes, I agree that hill climbing is strength and endurance. I recently did Bicycle Ride Across Tennessee and Cycle North Carolina. Neither ride was particularly hard hill wise but I'm recovering from ACL surgery this past Feb and didn't get to build my endurance for the hills. I made it through the 80+ days of Brat, (with a meltdown at 60 miles everyday) but on the first day of CNC the hills were much harder and I began walking more and more of them. After 44 miles I gave up and sagged in. I was devastated! The only other time I sagged in on a tour was this year on Candisc and that was due to 20+ mph winds.

From that experience I learned that I didn't have the endurance and power I had before my injury. It was a very hard pill to swallow because I'm a fairly good climber and came to terms with hills many years ago. But I felt like I'm a beginner again and having to start all over. My only consolation was that I was 7+ months from a pretty tough knee surgery and I still need time to build my endurance.

Don't get discouraged with hills, they will become easier as you get more experienced. Just remember that they are more techinque than anything. I look back at the hills I walked many years ago on the Horsey Hundred in Georgetown Ky and wonder why I had to walk them.

You have lots of opportunities to do some great organized hilly rides in Oh, Ky. and Ind. The cycle clubs in Cincy, Louisville, Lexington have some great rides. The Dayton, Oh cycle clubs have some good rides too with fewer hills.

A used to be good hill climber.

[Cassandra_Cain]

I guess you wish to continue this discussion, so be it.


C-Cain - Lance lifted weights when he wasn't racing. Big weights. Since I started doing serious weight training, my climbing has improved remarkably.

Lance Armstrong also trained 20+ hours a week, lived and breathed cycling - are you going to do that because he did? I should add, Carmichael and company are coaches, not exercise physiologists...


I found the following articles that support weight training and cycling performance. This is from the Journal of Applied Physiology:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/5/2285

The conclusion is:"These data do not demonstrate any negative performance effects of adding heavy-resistance training to ongoing endurance-training regimens. They indicate that certain types of endurance performance, particularly those requiring fast-twitch fiber recruitment, can be improved by strength-training supplementation

Do you realize that fast-twitch fiber recruitment is minimal at sub-threshold intensity? And unless you are blasting up a 20 second hill, you are not going to be climbing above threshold for very long.

I was also clear in my statements that weight training is beneficial for track racing because in that discipline, fast-twitch utilization is much higher.






This was in pub med:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=1886483&dopt=Citation

The conclusion is: "These findings indicate that strength training improves cycle endurance performance independently of changes in VO2max. This improved performance appears to be related to increases in LT and leg strength." (LT= lactate threshold). So, apparently they found that strength training does increase lactate threshold.

Yes that was in pub med but you either forgot or chose not to mention, this part:

"....18 healthy untrained males between 25 and 34 yr of age were randomly assigned to either strength training (N = 10) or control (N = 8)..."

So if you are posting on a cycling forum and talking about riding hills, lots of miles, etc - I have to believe you do not qualify as 'untrained' and definitely not sedentary. Moreover, for such a person, virtually any activity will improve their fitness over doing nothing.



I think you'll find that competitive cyclists do strength training in the off season. The theory of specificity is important, but augmenting training with other modalities is the rule rather than the exception. Case in point: Lance increased his ability to cycle in thin mountain air by sleeping in a special tent that reduced the amount of oxygen he received. The theory of specificity would require him to endlessly blast up mountain hills.

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. Altitude tents are used to boost hematocrit - EPO does the same thing, so would living in Leadville - riding up or down hills, in of itself, would not accomplish a boost in hematocrit.


I can sit in the drops longer because I do bench presses & tricep exercises. I can climb longer because I do squats which strength my glutes and lower back. When my muscles don't quit, I can work on my lung capacity. And I become a better cyclist, and a LOT better at climbing hills. And, I wasn't a bad hill climber to start with (she says modestly!)

You believe in weight training and I am not suggesting you or anyone else stop. It will not make you a better endurance cyclist though and you are more likely to pick up an injury in the gym than on your bike. Weights will not improve your lactate threshold or Vo2max - and those are precisely what are needed to improve sustained power output.

For all the weights you do, the amount of force you need for endurance cycling is no more than climbing a set of stairs. In addition, when you do any kind of sprint you generate far, far higher forces than you ever would while doing any kind of sustained climbing - you are already strong enough to climb. The limiting factors are not strength but insufficient capillarisation density and mitochondria as well as insufficient oxygen delivery and stroke volume.

Finally, here's some science for you:

Åstrand, P-.O., and Rodahl, K. (1986). Textbook of work physiology: Physiological bases of exercise. Singapore: McGraw-Hill Book Company.

Bassett, D. R., Kyle, C. R., Passfield, L., Broker, J. P., and Burke, E. R. (1999). Comparing cycling world hour records, 1967-1996: modelling with empirical data. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 31 (11): 1165 - 1676.

Bishop, D., Jenkins, D. G., MacKinnon, L. T., McEniery, M., & Carey, M. F. (1999). The effects of strength training on endurance performance and muscle characteristics. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 31: 886-891

Coyle, E. F., Feltner, M. E., Kautz, S. A., Hamilton, M. T., Mountain, S. J., Baylor, A. M., Abraham, L. D., and Petrek, G. W. (1991). Physiological and biomechanical factors associated with elite endurance cycling performance. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 23 (1): 93 - 107.

Fagan, C. D., & Doyle-Baker, P. K. (2000). The effects of maximum strength and power training combined with plyometrics on athletic performance. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 32 (5). Supplement abstract 659.

Harris, G. R., Stone, M. H., O'Bryant, H. S., Proulx, C. M., & Johnson, R. L. (2000). Short-term performance effects of high power, high force, or combined weight-training methods. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 14: 14 - 20.

Hawley, J. A., and Noakes, T. D. (1992). Peak power predicts maximal oxygen uptake and performance time in trained cyclists. European Journal of Applied Physiology and Occupational Physiology. 65 (1): 79 - 83.

Jones, A. M., and Carter, H. (2000). The effect of endurance training on parameters of aerobic fitness. Sports Medicine. 29 (6): 373 - 386.

Luecke, T., Wendeln, H., Campos, G. R., Hagerman, F. C., Hikida, R. S., & Staron, R. S. (1998). The effects of three different resistance training programs on cardiorespiratory function. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 30 (5). Supplement abstract 1125.

McArdle, W. D., Katch, F. I., and Katch, V. L. (1991). Exercise Physiology: Energy, Nutrition and Human Performance. Malvern (USA): Lea and Febiger.

Passfield, L., and Doust, J. H. (2000). Changes in cycling efficiency and performance after endurance exercise. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 32 (11): 1935 - 1941.

Rich, C., & Cafarelli, E. (2000). Submaximal motor unit firing rates after 8 wk of isometric resistance training. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 32: 190 - 196.

[Dogmama]

C-Cain, perhaps I did not make my post clear. I never meant to say that weight training can replace cycling, just that it is an excellent adjunct to cycling. Elite cyclists weight train in the off season, so apparently their coaches agree.

As for the other points, PM me if you want to continue this conversation.

[texascyclist]

bacarver...YOU SAID IT ALL!! My DH is a much stronger rider than I am. He constantly pushes me to go faster, climb better and finish quicker. I have explained to him many times than I did not take up cycling to be competitive but to enjoy it and reap the benefits of a healthier lifestyle that come from biking.

As far as hills go, when starting a climb, I look just in front of me, not up ahead. I find that if I look ahead I dwell on how much further it is until I reach the top. If I look just in front of me (while relying on my memories of childbirth....breathe, breathe, push, push :eek: ) I find the climbs are easier and seem to go quicker, even if I'm only going 5 mph....lol! I'm not sure why that is, I just know that this is what works for me. On occasion I have had to get off the bike and walk too, but I don't let it bother me. I look at it this way, walking or riding I'm still exercising. :D