gear question to you mechanical geniuses!

[mimitabby]

Okay. there are these different kinds of gear groups. campy veloce, campy record, shimano ultegra..

If i bought a bike with Campy Veloce, does that mean I would get the same gears as another campy veloce bike? the same granny gear and the same speeding gear? or is that a separate entity? I'm not talking custom bikes.
I'm talking more of off the shelf types of bikes.

Thanks

[Bluetree]

Not sure about the questions you're asking, Mimi, but a LBS has this chart/description of the various levels of Campy and Shimano groups. You have to scroll down almost to the bottom to find it, but I hope it helps.

http://thebikepalace.com/page.cfm?PageID=52

[mimitabby]

Good chart, thanks but that doesn't answer the whole question.

actually, that website has a lot of good info on the gears too!

the gears, they have different numbers of teeth. so if you buy a bike with the veloce gear set, will it have the same teeth numbers as the next bike with Veloce gear set? or are some more set up for flats and some more setup for hills?

[xeney]

I think it depends on if it is the same Veloce components. There is a compact double Veloce now, and when I bought my bike there was a double Veloce option and a triple option. I'm not sure if there are different rear cassettes, but probably there have been changes year-to-year. So if you have a 2002 bike with a Veloce triple setup, it is probably not exactly the same as what you'd buy now, when most bike sold with Veloce components (which isn't many!) have the compact double.

And I know that goes for Shimano, too.

[DebW]

Okay. there are these different kinds of gear groups. campy veloce, campy record, shimano ultegra..

If i bought a bike with Campy Veloce, does that mean I would get the same gears as another campy veloce bike? the same granny gear and the same speeding gear? or is that a separate entity? I'm not talking custom bikes.
I'm talking more of off the shelf types of bikes.

Thanks

No. You can still pick your cassette range and chainring options within a group. Though you are limited to 39-53 double or a 34-50 compact double in chainrings. 10-speed cassette options are:

11-25, 12-23, 12-25, 13-26, 13-29, 14-23

And I don't see why you couldn't mix some Veloce components with another Campy group, or perhaps even some Shimano parts if you wanted to.

[mimitabby]

No. You can still pick your cassette range and chainring options within a group. Though you are limited to 39-53 double or a 34-50 compact double in chainrings. 10-speed cassette options are:

11-25, 12-23, 12-25, 13-26, 13-29, 14-23

And I don't see why you couldn't mix some Veloce components with another Campy group, or perhaps even some Shimano parts if you wanted to.

oh, no, Deb, you're going over to the dark side now!! lalalalalalala
:D

but thank you kindly for answering the question. maybe next spring. hmmmmmmmmm

[DebW]

oh, no, Deb, you're going over to the dark side now!! lalalalalalala
:D


Why, because I said the word Shimano?

That info is on the Campy web site. Just because something is available, though, doesn't tell you what some manufacturer will outfit their stock bikes with.

[mimitabby]

Why, because I said the word Shimano?


no, not at all~ ! because you said i could mix up different types with each other. !! That sounds so far beyond what I could conceive of or understand.
I also had heard that if you were mixing campy with shimano, you needed other special gadgets. If I buy a bike,they're probably not going to sell me half chorus and half veloce.. you just went beyond what i can handle in my brain (can you hear the synapses cracking?)

I just don't want to buy another bike and find out that it doesn't do hills because it has the wrong gears..

[DebW]

Mimi, you need to decide what gears you want before you buy the bike and then insist that the LBS swap parts until you get what you want. Using Shimano shifters on Campy freewheel, or vice versa, requires gadgets. But you could probably use any Campy freewheel with Veloce shifters. Or use Chorus shifters with a Veloce freewheel. But do any part swaps when you buy the bike because then you pay for the difference in price only and the LBS keeps a brand new part to sell.

Back in my day, bikes didn't come with "gruppos". You'd get a Suntour freewheel, a Regina chain, and Simplex shifters. Everything worked together.

[mimitabby]

Deb,
here's the crux of the matter: I havent a clue! what would I want a chorus part mixed in with the Daytona or the Veloce? Why would i want to mix and match?
I am so beginner in this respect. I just want a bike that works well. Someone with your knowledge and sophistication surely could mix and match and come up with something way better at the end. But for me it sounds like a rube goldberg contraption which would forever be seizing up. who am I to second guess
the experts? I am still working on learning the advice you gave me to keep me from knocking my chain off !

[SadieKate]

. . . But you could probably use any Campy freewheel with Veloce shifters. Or use Chorus shifters with a Veloce freewheel

Psst, Deb! I don't think Campy makes freewheels any longer! ;)

[SadieKate]

Mimi, what kind of bike are you considering? What do you want it to do? What do you want it to do differently than your Bianchi?

Different gruppos have different things. Some have 10 speed now. Some are still, I think, 9 speed. Some have different cassette sizes available -- as in the largest cog is 29 speed. Triple or double? Are you gaga for all silver components or do you want carbon? Do you want this bike to have cantilevers?

When you have a bike frame custom built for you or if you have a production frame built up with handpicked components, you have the option of buying a gruppo or buying each part individually. But you really can't intelligently pick which parts until you decide what you want the bike to do (racing, centuries, loaded touring, etc., etc., etc.).

[mimitabby]

SadieKate
I have a 49cm veloce. I have recently discovered just how much nicer it felt to be on a 44cm Volpe. I'm not talking about the shifting here, just the fit of the bike.
I spent a lot to get that Veloce to fit me. all of you heard my pleas and laments, and guided me towards making it a bike that I can ride and enjoy.
So anyway, having discovered this amazing fact, that there IS a better fit for me, I started thinking about a next bike. I found that some other bikes have campy components like my veloce, but i was concerned, would my next bike go up hills as good as my veloce even with veloce components? I guess I was thinking if you bought a bike with the same component gruppo, that it would then have the same gears. Deb said no, this is a separate issue, I need to tell them what gears I want and that i could mix and match my componentry. I don't want to mix and match, I just don't want to end up spending a lot of money some day (next year :D maybe?) to get a bike which isn't right for our hilly rides.
So far, the only bike I have found that appeals to me is the Marinoni Turismo.
If Bianchi made a steel bike like the veloce (in my size) with the cyclocross stuff on it (so I could ride year round here), i would go with Bianchi. But the closest they come is that sweet little Volpe. (I didn't buy the bike, but i named it Pandora...)
So that's where I am today, while it is dark and rainy and when it wasn't i didn't have time to ride anyway.
Thank you Deb and Sadie for your patience while I muddle through trying to understand all this stuff.

[SadieKate]

Mimi, you need to discern why the 44 fits better. Top tube length? Headtube height? Seat angle? Not all bikes climb alike either. The Volpe and the Veloce are vastly different bikes in many ways. Isn't the Volpe the cross bike? Higher bottom bracket, etc.

Have you been on a Marinoni?

[mimitabby]

I have never been on a Marinoni.
A coworker has one, it is very interesting, sexy, etc.
The reach to the handlebars is why the volpe felt better. (the seat felt like a rock slab, which it was...)

the volpe is a cyclocross bike... lots of room for fenders. I like fenders

[HillSlugger]

Assuming all other things to be equal between the two bike (crank length, etc) the only thing you would have to consider for gearing are the crank gears and the cassette gears. Two different bikes with the same gear sizes up front and in back would provide all the same gear ratios. Of course, all things are not equal and climbing, speed, etc would be affected by fit, geometry, etc. When looking at new bikes you'd want to look at the gearing and compare it to what you have now and then decide if it would give you what you need.

When I was shopping for a bike it immediately became clear that a double crank would not give me the low gears I needed, so I limited myself to bikes with triples. When I decided on the Specialized Sequoia I still had the cassette switched from 12-24 to 12-27 to get me additional low gear ratios.

[mimitabby]

thanks MDhillslug.
At least that much I am sure of. My next bike will have a triple. I like triples.
There are mountains in my future and it would be senseless to get a compact double!

[Grog]

If you call the Marinoni shop, you'll probably find someone very useful to explain to you what the different combinations can be on a Tourismo. They have GREAT customer service.

If you want to do mainly hills and steep hills in particular, I'd recommend getting a triple chainring in the front (like 52-40-30) and a cassette with a 25 in the back. Or a compact double (50-35) and a cassette with a 27 or maybe even more in the back. What will affect your performance on the hills is mostly the range of gears available to you, although the reliability of your shifting devices will also matter: if it's a struggle every time you want to change gears, you'll often loose momentum and, if you're like me, get frustrated.

As DebW pointed out, it's easier to mix and match within a company's offering (Campagnolo or Shimano) but some other matches can be made. It's usually hard or ineffective to skip three steps (e.g. put Tiagra 7-speed shifters with Ultegra 10-speed cassette!) or more, but a lot of bikes have mixed 105 and Ultegra or Ultegra and Durace components. You can save a bit by choosing some components which you consider less critical (dunno, the cassette for example) from a lower ranger and more critical parts (rear derailleur?) in a higher range. Shifters are important but really terribly expensive.

As I pointed out in a different thread, Marinoni will basically prepare whichever bike you want for you based on your measurements and needs and tastes (paint job, especially if you don't trust Mrs. Marinoni's tastes, which I have found at times dubious), for a relatively tiny fee ($100 I think). Every bike shop that sells Marinoni probably has access to this service. Otherwise you can always call them directly and see if you can get that. Or you can go directly to their shop in Montreal and have a great time!!! (And ride back to Seattle to save on gas?)

/End of Marinoni envy.

[indysteel]

Mimi, In my experience in looking at bike specs (and I looked at A LOT of specs before deciding on my Bianchi Eros Donna), most road bikes that come with a triple have granny ring with 30 teeth. So, assuming you get a triple crankset with your next bike, you will likely get the same granny gear that you have on your Veloce. It's pretty easy to ascertain the gearing when you go bike shopping from the specs (assuming the salesperson doesn't otherwise know the answer).

As for mixing gruppos, I'm not sure why that confuses you. Even stock bikes, for instance, mix gruppos and brands. For instance, the Veloce for 2006 came with a Mirage front derailleur. My Eros Donna was full Mirage but for the crankset, which is Sugino. I, for one, switched out the Mirage rear derailleur and Mirage brifters for Veloce when I bought my Bianchi. It was mostly a performance/durability issue for me. I'd like to change out the brakes next year too because the Mirage just don't work as well as I'd like. As others have suggested, it's generally easier (and makes more sense IMO) to swamp Campy for Campy and Shimano for Shimano.

Emotionally speaking, too, I didn't want an "entry-level" bike. I actually would have preferred a full Veloce groupset on the bike, but it wasn't worth the money to change everything out. That, and the LBS would have killed me. They worked with me but were not actually all that happy to have a bunch of entry-level (and unsellable) components sitting around the shop. That said, if you want to swap something out, it doesn't hurt to negotiate with them. Not suprisingly, though, it's a lot more cost-efficient to get a stock bike with the components you like than to upgrade--when you first buy the bike or later. I would have bought the Veloce if it had fit, but I still would have swamped out the compact crank, stem and handlebars. It seems to me that it's hard to find the perfect stock bike. You either pay to change things out or learn to live with the imperfections. As between an imperfect fit and an mperfect component, however, I'd choose the latter.

The point is: both Shimano and Campy offer any number of options for nearly every component. Depending on what you ultimately want/need on your next bike and how much you're willing to spend for it, you can tweak just about anything on the bike (except for its geometry obviously). So, if you find a bike that fits but aren't in love with some or all of the components, they can be changed out. The trick is to know what your really want out of your bike and how the components affect that so that you can make intelligent, cost-effective choices.

Good luck.

Kate

[mimitabby]

Grog, Indysteel, Deb, Sadiekate, mdhillslug,
I hope i get to be your secret sister some day because the caliber of information here is incredible. Thank you.

[Triskeliongirl]

Mimi- your fundamental problem is that you don't understand gearing. First of all, groups, like record, chorus, veloce, indicate component weight and performance. For example Record is for racing so is lighter and more expensive than chorus which is lighter and more expensive than veloce. On the shimano line, it goes durace>ultegra>105. It is often thought that chorus and ultegra are the best values in terms of most bang for the buck. Another consideration, at least in the shimano line is 10spd vs 9spd. 10spd is great for tight racing gears, but 9sp lets you mix and match shimano mountain components (which go XTR>XT>LX). On my bikes, by having a compact double in front, I can use a road casette in back for normal riding and a moutain casette for hilly riding. Casettes (the rings in the back) and chain rings (the rings in front) are interchangeable, you choose different number of teeth for different applications. Swapping casettes is so easy that I even swap them depending on the terrain of the planed ride (i.e. you can own more than one). To choose the gear range you want, go to Sheldon Brown's website and click on his gear caluclator (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/). While gear inches may not have too much meaning to you now, try viewing the results by speed. Input a typical cadence for you, and this will tell you how fast you'll go in a given cadence in a given gear. Then, pay attention to what gears you use on what terrain, to get a sense for the range you need. Turn those numbers into gear ratios so you can start thinking about it that way, since there are lots of different ways to get the same gear ratio.

[Triskeliongirl]

Mimi- another warning, I am not sure you totally understand frame sizing/geometry. A 44 cm or 49cm frame only indicates the length of the seat tube, and even that can vary since some manufacturers report the measurement as center of the bottom bracket to top of the seat tube and some as center to center. The reason you have a problem on your bianchi veloce is that both the top tube are too long for you, and the seat tube angle is very steep, which combine to make the reach too long. So, when you buy your next bike, you need to look at the total frame geometry, seat tube length, top tube length, and seat tube angle to assess fit. I am sure what you preferred on the 44cm bike you test rode was the shorter top tube, but that is why I always buy bikes with the top tube length and seat tube angles I need, even though their sizes can vary from 44-51cm. -e

[mimitabby]

Mimi- your fundamental problem is that you don't understand gearing. First of all, groups, like record, chorus, veloce, indicate component weight and performance. For example Record is for racing so is lighter and more expensive than chorus which is lighter and more expensive than veloce. On the shimano line, it goes durace>ultegra>105. To choose the gear range you want, go to Sheldon Brown's website and click on his gear caluclator (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/). While gear inches may not have too much meaning to you now, try viewing the results by speed. Input a typical cadence for you, and this will tell you how fast you'll go in a given cadence in a given gear. Then, pay attention to what gears you use on what terrain, to get a sense for the range you need. Turn those numbers into gear ratios so you can start thinking about it that way, since there are lots of different ways to get the same gear ratio.

I wondered where you had been. :rolleyes:
I do understand some of this. I looked at the pricey-er campi stuff and it's all carbon. I have been to sheldon brown's website and understand the concept.
What i know is i really really like the gearing on my veloce! (that's why i asked the dumb question, was the gearing part of the gruppo Veloce package.


Mimi- another warning, I am not sure you totally understand frame sizing/geometry. A 44 cm or 49cm frame only indicates the length of the seat tube, and even that can vary since some manufacturers report the measurement as center of the bottom bracket to top of the seat tube and some as center to center.
I understand this part a lot better than the other part. (thanks to your tutelage) I just assumed that two Bianchi steel bikes would be similar in their geometry, especially a cyclocross vs a road bike. The cyclocross is supposed to be a beefed up road bike, i thought.

If i go with the Marinoni (someday!) i would also do the Serrotta fit. And you do the fit before you get the bike, so I shouldn't be ending up with yet another bike that doesn't fit me the way it should.
thanks for adding your voice to the education seminar here. Much appreciated.

[SadieKate]

I understand this part a lot better than the other part. (thanks to your tutelage) I just assumed that two Bianchi steel bikes would be similar in their geometry, especially a cyclocross vs a road bike. The cyclocross is supposed to be a beefed up road bike, i thought.Mimi, even two Bianchi road bikes won't have the same geometry. A road bike meant for racing is very different than one built for touring. Even one size to the next will have minute changes to deal with wheel size, etc.

This is why I asked what you wanted to do with the bike. Cross bikes have been adapted for use on the road but they are designed to take off road. One of the things is a higher bottom bracket. You'll feel this when cornering. If you want the ability to add racks and fenders, you don't have to go with a cross bike. A custom road frame can have fender and rack mounts added. Go look at Denise Goldberg's beautiful Peter Mooney bike in the thread on "showing your lugs."

As far as components are concerned, Campy and Shimano aren't your only options. Sugino makes a touring triple crank that many brevet riders (and others like myself) like because you can chainrings of 26/36/48. I'm not a big fan of the stock chainring sizes on Campy and Shimano because they're aimed at the young, strong and, usually, male market. Even some young women I know would do better with smaller chainrings. This would let them run small cassette clusters in the rear.

So, I repeat my question. What distance, what type of terrain, how long the hills, how steep the hills, etc. What gearing is on your Bianchi? What gears do you use the most? Do you constantly switch between the middle and the granny? Are you going to be doing any brevets? Will this be your only bike or will you be keeping the Bianchi?

[Grog]

As far as components are concerned, Campy and Shimano aren't your only options.

SRAM also offers interesting options now.

[mimitabby]

What do i want to do on my bike? oh, everything. :D

I want to ride to work (8 miles), I want to go around the burkegilman trail with my girlfriends(20 miles), ride to Vancouver(200 miles), ride to my mother's house, (22 miles)...go on club rides (50 miles).

95% of my riding will be on roads, unless they run out; and that happens.
Here in Seattle, we normally have about 60 full-sunny days a year, so I need to have fenders. Most every ride I do (except the burke gilman) involves lots and lots of hills. I am probably not doing more than the one race a year, and that was a long distance race anyway, so I don't really need a racing bike. I like the feel of steel.

I hope that answers the question.

Grog has totally blown my mind with the talk about Marinoni. If I wasn't getting ready to leave the country, i'd call them today just to flirt with the idea. I had no idea you could tell them what chain rings you wanted.

That Sugino gruppo does sound interesting.
thank you. (Now shall i start eating the chocolate i got from my secret sister or...?)

[indysteel]

Thanks for the compliment Mimi. Can someone explain the Secret Sister thing to me BTW (not to hijack this thread).

Back to the thread. The Sugino set up previously mentioned is interesting. SadieKate, you indicated chainrings of 26-26-42. Is that a mistake? I'd love to have a set up--either as a double or triple--where my big ring was a 42. That's my middle ring currently, and I'm in it 99% of the time. I'd like to think that I'll someday make good use of my big ring, but I'm not right now.

Kate

[SadieKate]

I originally said 26/26/48 but meant 26/36/48.

For those of us in hilly country, running a 40 or 42 middle chainring means we may be constantly shifting between the middle and the inner rings. By lowering the entire chainring range, you can stay in your middle chain ring more. This gives you really great options of 1) using a smaller cassette cluster in back when you have rides that are mostly flat - lots of minute differences optimal for flatland riding and 2) a big platter size cassette for huge mountain rides or loaded touring - mtn cassettes usually have a very small cog so you get a bigger gear at the top of the range. You should go to Sheldon Brown's site to play with the gear calculator there.

Peter White and Yellow Jersey both sell the Sugino crank.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/cranx2.html

I've been watching a lot of women lately, and in non-race situations, they are very rarely in the large 52 chainring unless they are going down a long hill where they are actually pedaling to produce more power. I frequently see people in their big chainring and completely cross-geared. I get the heck out of there so I don't have to pick up the pieces when they break a chain.

If you want a 42 on the outer, you'll probably need a mountain bike crankset. I'm not sure how small you can go on a compact double road crank.

[mimitabby]

I originally said 26/26/48 but meant 26/36/48.

For those of us in hilly country, running a 40 or 42 middle chainring means we may be constantly shifting between the middle and the inner rings. By lowering the entire chainring range, you can stay in your middle chain ring more. This gives you really great options of 1) using a smaller cassette cluster in back when you have rides that are mostly flat - lots of minute differences optimal for flatland riding and 2) a big platter size cassette for huge mountain rides or loaded touring - mtn cassettes usually have a very small cog so you get a bigger gear at the top of the range. You should go to Sheldon Brown's site to play with the gear calculator there.

Peter White and Yellow Jersey both sell the Sugino crank.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/cranx2.html

I've been watching a lot of women lately, and in non-race situations, they are very rarely in the large 52 chainring unless they are going down a long hill where they are actually pedaling to product more power. I frequently see people in their big chainring and completely cross-geared. I get the heck out of there so I don't have to pick up the pieces when they break a chain.

If you want a 42 on the outer, you'll probably need a mountain bike crankset. I'm not sure how small you can go on a compact double road crank.


okay, i am doing my homework. on my bianchi now is a 30/42/52 in the front and a 13-26 in the back. You're quite right, I will probably never get it to the fastest gears. But I'm not sure i want mountain bike gears either.
A strong consideration for me is that I am doing okay on the hills here with this configuration, so as long as the top end wasn't so much lower that I ran out of gears, it would be great to have MORE USABLE gearing on another bike.