childless?

[Nokomis]

This is a bit of a spin off from the menstral cycle thread...

Any others here dealing w/ not being able to conceive? DH and I are trying to work thru infertility - and are currently no longer trying. We've been thru every workup the docs can think of - and have Unexplained fertility. We're now early 30s, have gone thru trying w/ a little bit of assisted/medicated cycles. My menstral cycle is messed up - but again - docs can find nothing techinically wrong in order to fix it. I've also tried a year of accupuncture & herbs with no change. When it comes to baby making we've decided that IVF and Adoption are not for us.

My struggle is learning how to deal with tomorrow - and the thought of Never being a mother. I'm content in today, and if I live day to day things are good. But if I think about the future I crumble & don't know how to deal.

My doc thinks that my cycle issues may be best dealt with by getting pregnant - even though I've told her that is not our goal. I've distanced myself from that thought enough that my brain/logic find it absolutely frighting to consider being a parent. While at the same time, my emotional side craves being a caregiver and nurturer. I also find myself being very resentful and angry? when I see pregnant women or young children out & about w/ their families.

I have no idea who to talk to about this ~ or how to resolve all the emotions.

[LBTC]

Hi, Nokomis

This sounds like a painful experience for you, but also that you are taking the right steps for yourself to accept what mother nature has given you. It's never easy to want something you can never have. There are many philosophies and religions that teach the acceptance and love as the answers to everything, you may find some solace there.

From a more practical point of view, there are a number of ways to feed your mothering, nurturing needs. Pets are, for me and my DH, our children. We care for them in many of the ways that human children are cared for, and have a very similar emotional attachment. Even if you have pets, I would understand if this is not enough for you.

My next thought would be to become a big sister. There are also big couples that can be matched to younger brothers or sisters. I haven't been involved in this program, but have heard great things about it from both perspectives.

There are also lots of charitable organizations out there that help people in all stages of life, with all sorts of different issues. These organizations are always looking for more volunteers, and if you stopped in to your local volunteer registry, you may find the perfect organization for you to put your energies into.

Lastly, you may try to do something which I saw in a news article years ago, that they do in Japan. Apparently there childless couples adopt grandchildren! I've been thinking for years that when I'm in my 50's that's likely something I'll try to do. I like the idea of being involved in developing child's life without being ultimately responsible for them!

Thank you for sharing your troubles with us. I'm sending healing energy your way, with lots of hugs and butterflies. We each have a path custom designed for us. You will learn to thrive on your own path!

Namaste,
~T~

[HipGnosis6]

Ty doc thinks that my cycle issues may be best dealt with by getting pregnant - even though I've told her that is not our goal.


FIND A NEW DOCTOR.

I have PCOS; it is THE leading cause of female infertility and it is often diagnosed by the presence of an irregular menstrual cycle along with insulin resistance or diabetes. Backwards thinking doctors don't know or don't bother to check your sugars or insulin levels in reference to infertility. They also don't know that it is TREATABLE and will often reccomend things like getting pregnant or losing weight as the only way to fix an unknown or improperly diagnosed issue.

If your doctor thinks that getting pregnant will cure your infertility woes, he's clearly one of the people who cheated on his medical exams....

[emily_in_nc]

Hi Nokomis,

My husband and I went through the whole infertility rollercoaster in my 30s: temperature taking/tracking ovulation, "just relax"ing, getting tested, surgery, and finally, two IVFs, the second of which was successful in getting me pregnant (after 8-9 years of trying)...only to miscarry at 12 weeks. It was the worst emotional pain I'd ever had to go through to that point in my life because I'd wanted the baby *so so* badly.

After many tears, arguments, and discussions, we finally decided "enough". It was very, very hard to do that. It felt like failing, and was a huge loss on so many levels. I went to counseling for awhile, trying to figure out how to live with not being a mother. By this time we were old enough (DH is 7.5 years older than me) that we didn't really want to start the entirely different but similarly emotionally draining adoption roller coaster. We were just tired of it all.

Slowly, ever so slowly, after grieving over the miscarrage and finally deciding not to continue trying, life started being fun again. It took awhile, and there were definite regrets. The loss of a lifelong dream is difficult for a long time, but I miscarried 9 years ago, so I can now speak from a "down the road" perspective.

At 45, I've never been happier or more content in my life. My life is complete even without a child -- 10-15 years ago I could never have believed that. I have wonderful nieces and nephews, but overall am not very "child oriented", preferring to hang out with adults. I have a lot of child-free friends, which helps a lot since they're all happy folks too. I'm getting into so many different activities now (cycling, hiking, mountain biking, gym, running, kayaking, hoping to add backpacking to that list next year) that my mom friends don't have time for since their kids' activities take all their time.

It gets better, I promise. I hope you don't have to walk the childless road if you don't want to, but I didn't want it, and instead of trudging wearily as I was doing years ago, I'm now skipping merrily along it, looking forward to early retirement, traveling, and many happy days ahead. Life is good. Time is an amazing healer and provider of perspective. The infertility roller coaster is all-consuming, but getting off that endless ride and doing some life-affirming things helped me see that there is more to life than trying for what we just can't have, for whatever reason.

All the best to you in whatever path your life takes...

Emily

[CyclChyk]

Altho I don't know the pain you feel about being unable to conceive I can certainly understand your pain. I wish I had some magic words to say to you in order to keep your hope alive, but all I can do is send you a mental hug.

I have a friend who is undergoing the same things as you. She has been artifically inseminated 3 times. None have taken. She has been on various hormones for well over a year, and tho she has not yet become pregnant she now bears the risk of multiple births when it actually happens, if ever. She has been scraped, proded and poked. She feels like a ginea pig and yet she keeps trying. The expense is unbelievable.

She has confided in me that she feels "defective". Like there is something wrong with her or that she has done something horrible to be unable to conceive when all her peers are turning up pregnant and giving birth. (I know of 5 so far this year). But she is a beautiful person and I know there has to be a higher reason for things to be turning out the way they are.

You are in my prayers.

[Bad JuJu]

Just another family-without-children woman checking in with my two cents. (By the way, it bugs me the way the word family has been taken over to mean "with kids"--aren't dh and I a family??? :mad: )

Anyway, DH and I decided in our early thirties (well, mid-thirties for him) that we did not want to be parents, and mostly we've never looked back. I say "mostly" because he seemed to experience a moment or two of regret (though, oddly, I didn't) a few years ago when I started going through menopause. But it was gone in the wink of an eye. Though it does suggest that you want to try to be pretty sure about your decision.

Like Emily, we're not very kid-oriented, though don't generally dislike children--as some people will think you do if you don't have any. But we aspire to be the best aunt and uncle ever, and have always had dogs. And maybe it's a little different because we've both been teachers, and have had an opportunity to do some nurturing in that sense.

Seems like I've heard there are support groups for the fertility-challenged. You might search the internet. On the other hand, know that life can be fun and happy and marvelously fulfilling, even without having children.

[Geonz]

I agree about getting a second opinion... a lady I know struggled with infertility for *years* and then got her blood sugar regular and conceived amazingly quickly.
On the other hand, as a childless 46-year-old, I do a *lot* of nurturing that is only possible for me to do because I don't have kids. (I also find that I simply don't feel that anything is missing from my life because there aren't kids... I truly, honestly don't have the urge and have always wondered what it was like - you have my sympathy if not empathy there!)
I do have family, and there is tons of love in my life in little and big ways; I have consciously cultivated close friendships and/or other have cultivated them with me.
And I have my bikes!:D :D :D

[Kitsune06]

GF and I are currently childless.
I don't suspect this will change too soon, but she wants to, someday, and you know... I think I dread and fear this more than anything else in our relationship. I do *not* want to be "that horrible person who left her GF because she couldn't handle parenthood" or likewise "that horrible person" who "wasted" her time by being with her until then, and leaving her single to ponder parenthood with someone she didn't know as well. She says my concerns are 'stupid' and that I'll 'change my mind' once I hit my mid to late 20s... I'm not so sure. I just know how people tend to look back and say "You knew how you felt in the first place- why are you suddenly bringing this up now?!" when the time to make an actual decision on something comes.
I'm just not into kids... and I wish she weren't either, but I can't change that. She says "Well, who will take care of you when you're old?!" ... I will, and my savings will, or no one will... such is life. I'm not going to have a kid to try to change that. :rolleyes:
My nurturing needs tend to go toward my pets and my partner.
It's not that I don't think there's enough love in me to go around, but that if I did have a child someday, I would want to adopt... there are a lot of children out there who need that kind of steady, real love... why make my own?
I'm sorry I have no real words of wisdom or experience to give you, except that family is family and love is love. You and your husband don't love each other less for this, and that's *the* most important thing. You two should focus on being happy together, doing things together, and enjoying your lives together.

[CyclChyk]

Anyway, DH and I decided in our early thirties (well, mid-thirties for him) that we did not want to be parents, and mostly we've never looked back............On the other hand, know that life can be fun and happy and marvelously fulfilling, even without having children.

My DH and I as well decided very early in our relationship that we did not want to be parents. Not that kids aren't great, its just they are not great to us unless they belong to someone else. Once in awhile my DH and I will get a twinge of regret for not having a child. But it only lasts for a very small moment.

And I completely agree with JUJU as our life is fun and happy and fulfilling. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I also agree with KIT that adoption is such a great option. I know someone who adopted a baby a year and 1/2 ago and they love that baby as tho it were their own flesh and blood. Sure its expensive, but if you want something badly enough you find a way.

[Steph]

((((Nokomis))))))
My best friend has struggled with infertility for years. She dreamed of a big family. Even though she did have one child with treatments, she still feels a big void from repeated failures to conceive since then. She is 36 now. Just the other day when I told her about one of our friends who is pregnant at 36 and didn't want to be, she went down that road of feeling left out again. She would like to try the treatment where they put the sp*rm directly into the tubes. She knows that her husbands motility is low. I agree with the other posters about getting 2nd or even a 3rd opinion. I think that for most women there is just something wired in us to want to nurture and love and have children. The feelings you described are feelings I have heard her express so many times. I will pray for you.

[crazybikinchic]

I was having issues with the not being a mommy. My situation is different. I have a beautiful daughter. She is now in the hands of the Lord. She had a genetic disease that took her young. Don't get me wrong, I had 2 wonderful years that I would not trade for the life of me with her, but she was my 1 in 4 chance of having a child with it. There are other health issues that again are passed to children coming into play here, but my decision to not have more children is as it is. We opted to get a puppy in order to help with the issues that I was facing and I have to say that he has helped a lot. He is like a child in many respects, he demands attention, he loves unconditionally, he is happy to see me when I get home, I also have found a great running partner. I'm not saying he is the cureall, I am saying he has helped. I still don't feel like a mommy and I have my days that I do not deal with it as well, but again, my dog has helped.

[Aggie_Ama]

I have a "friend" on another board going through the same emotions. She has been open about her struggle for the last two years. One of the things that has really helped was couples therapy. Her husband and her have been able to face the grieving process infertility brings. Just a thought.

[Nokomis]

thank you all - this is always a supportive & healing place to be!

I am on doc #4, if I include my acupuncturist. This is the first doc who told me she'd take my spotting seriously - but after 3 visists I got the "dont know what to do with you" shrug.

As I tried to convey, I'm doing very well in the day to day & with the life that DH & I have together. The difficulty is baby envy, and watching close friends bring their little ones into the world. I'm also convinced there is a boom - cuz they're everywhere! :p

We've got the pets, I've done a bunch of volunteering but had to step away this year... but still can't quite let go of the baby dream, for as much as baby fear is keeping me away.

Thanks again & again!

[LBTC]

The difficulty is baby envy

Nokomis, your comment about envy reminded me of an excellent article I read in Yoga Journal
http://www.yogajournal.com/wisdom/1157_1.cfm

I get the sense that you are handling this entire difficult phase with a lot of grace and love. Your posts tell me also that you're ready to seek answers from a higher or deeper source. The road to peace is challenging to each of us with plenty of obstacles all designed to help us learn that which we need to learn most. I have found solace and guidance in the writings of the tao, in the practice and reading about the wisdom of yoga, and a deeper way of thinking in the tarot. I've also found peace, gratitude and joy in the photos I take. (I didn't mention biking here this time, because I'm unable to do it during this phase of my life, so I must rely on my other sources...)

You'll find your ways to deal with this issue in the long term. And whenever you are having difficulty with it, just post again!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[SheFly]

As I tried to convey, I'm doing very well in the day to day & with the life that DH & I have together. The difficulty is baby envy, and watching close friends bring their little ones into the world. I'm also convinced there is a boom - cuz they're everywhere! :p



I, too, have been for a ride on the infertility roller coaster. I always assumed I would have children, and it just wasn't meant to be.

Like you, as we were dealing with our grief over not having a family, it seemed that everyone around us was happily announcing that they were expecting, including our siblings! It really was hard to see and to hear, but I did my best to be happy and supportive of all of them. I think that the hardest thing for me to deal with was a college friend who had a daughter, and then started complaining about lack of sleep, the work, etc - all while KNOWING that I couldn't have children!

I am happy to say, however, that now DH and I are very happy with our lives. We focus on each other and our friends, and we are a great aunt and uncle. About a year ago I was overly late one month and knew that I had crossed a hurdle when my thinking was that I couldn't possibly be pregnant because it would totally affect my lifestyle!

The hardest part of all of this is accepting the hand you are dealt, and moving on. It will be difficult as your friends and family have children. You will grieve, and you will, in time, find yourself in a great place for you.

Best wishes.

SheFly

[xeney]

Emily, thank you so much for your post. I'm 37 and I am in a pretty bad transition stage ... a year ago my husband didn't want kids but had a fairly open mind about the subject, then I got accidentally pregnant and had a miscarriage in May, then we were ambivalent and not really trying but I had a couple of chemical pregnancies, then he said he didn't want to try, now he's back to being open to the possibilities, but I just had my first half-hearted appointment with the doctor and there is apparently some concern that I am not ovulating properly and might need assistance to get pregnant again. And I think my husband's ambivalence, plus my absolute terror of having another miscarriage, is enough that we probably won't go that route.

Throughout all of this, I have tried really hard to make a life in which I am happy without kids. I've been trying to do that since I was in my 20s, since he was absolutely not ready for kids then, and I have seen enough people have their lives truly ruined by fertility struggles that I just wanted to make sure it did not happen to me.

But at some point I realized that I was lacking good role models for living a happy life without children. For various professional reasons, most of my female colleagues are older than I am, and about half of them don't have children. At some point I noticed that that was definitely the unhappy half. They weren't taking advantage of their freedoms to do anything but work a lot of unpaid overtime, they were just a pretty unhappy group. I don't know if the unhappiness is a cause or effect or totally unrelated to not having kids, but I have been looking for some happy role models for a while, pretty unsuccessfully.

That is one reason I started spending more time here at TE, honestly ... I noticed a lot woman about five to ten years older than I am, without kids, who seemed to be having pretty fulfilling lives. It breaks my heart to find out how many of you got to the point after going through fertility struggles, but it is good to know that there is an other side out there.

[SheFly]

But at some point I realized that I was lacking good role models for living a happy life without children. For various professional reasons, most of my female colleagues are older than I am, and about half of them don't have children. At some point I noticed that that was definitely the unhappy half. They weren't taking advantage of their freedoms to do anything but work a lot of unpaid overtime, they were just a pretty unhappy group. I don't know if the unhappiness is a cause or effect or totally unrelated to not having kids, but I have been looking for some happy role models for a while, pretty unsuccessfully.

That is one reason I started spending more time here at TE, honestly ... I noticed a lot woman about five to ten years older than I am, without kids, who seemed to be having pretty fulfilling lives. It breaks my heart to find out how many of you got to the point after going through fertility struggles, but it is good to know that there is an other side out there.

From what I have read so far in this thread, I think you may have come to the right place!

I am only a year older than you, but wanted to let you know that I am childless and have a VERY fulfilling and happy life! While I may work more than 40 hours a week (in high tech, who doesn't?), my focus and fulfillment come from outside of work - friends, family, biking (a HUGE part of my life), skiing, snowmobiling...

This has been my first year of competitive cycling - something that I don't think I could have done with children, given the training requirements and travel schedules on the weekends to attend races. I am having a blast racing and training. It is amazing to see just how far I have come over the past year. I have races scheduled until the middle of December, and then I will transition into ski/snowmobile season!

My point in sharing this with you is that there are PLENTY of childless women out there, either by choice or unfortunate circumstance, who lead happy, fulfilling lives that aren't necessarily just defined by a career. I love my job too, but it is not what defines me. I guess this is what you would call the "other" side ;) .

SheFly

[Bluetree]

But at some point I realized that I was lacking good role models for living a happy life without children.. That is one reason I started spending more time here at TE, honestly ... I noticed a lot woman about five to ten years older than I am, without kids, who seemed to be having pretty fulfilling lives.

Xeney, I am one of those people who never wants/wanted children. I knew it from an early age. Perhaps being an artist (a driven one at that) has something to do with it. My life revolves around creating art so I’ve never had the urge to create another human being. Similarly, I work with horses so I never have a shortage of lifeforms to nurture and care for, including working for charities that nurses back to health horses rescued from slaughterhouse pens.

I think almost all women have these needs of creation and caregiving, but I’m not convinced that having children is the only answer out there. There are a lot of wonderful, humane and selfless things that women can do to make the world a better place... and we have the power, the will and generosity of spirit to do so.



She says my concerns are ‘stupid’ and that I’ll ‘change my mind’ once I hit my mid to late 20s... I’m not so sure. I just know how people tend to look back and say “You knew how you felt in the first place- why are you suddenly bringing this up now?!” when the time to make an actual decision on something comes.


I’ve been telling people my whole life that I never wanted kids. Many of them say that “You’ll change your mind,” or “Just wait and see,” or some other nonsense. I find that response arrogant and patronizing. In my 39-years of existence, I can’t recall ever telling anyone that their personal beliefs and aspirations were a passing phase... even if I did not agree with it.

Many people who want/have kids simply cannot fathom why others don’t. My parents consider it one’s duty to procreate. My family’s ancestral home/estate dates back to the 1500s and the family tree is a wall decoration (it actually covers the whole wall). Talk about pressure! But even my lifelong refusal to breed has not dissuaded my parents’ hopes and expectations. So even if you are up front with your SOs, sometimes it never sinks in.

My agent of six years recently went through a very bad breakup with his GF, just because of this. 16 years her senior, Ed told her (and it was no secret) that he did not want to have children. Gail was convinced she could change his mind and tried for five years, getting more and more miserable and resentful until she finally had a breakdown and left him. It was sad, but in her burning desire to be a mother she never paid attention to the truth in front of her.

[emily_in_nc]

Emily, thank you so much for your post. I'm 37 and I am in a pretty bad transition stage ... a year ago my husband didn't want kids but had a fairly open mind about the subject, then I got accidentally pregnant and had a miscarriage in May, then we were ambivalent and not really trying but I had a couple of chemical pregnancies, then he said he didn't want to try, now he's back to being open to the possibilities, but I just had my first half-hearted appointment with the doctor and there is apparently some concern that I am not ovulating properly and might need assistance to get pregnant again. And I think my husband's ambivalence, plus my absolute terror of having another miscarriage, is enough that we probably won't go that route.

This sounds a lot like where we were -- I was 36 when I miscarried. My husband was always more ambivalent about having children than I was. I wanted it so badly, where he could go either way. So we did argue quite a bit about continuing the infertility treatments (I initially wanted to, he didn't), and in the end, I let him "win" because it was such a painful road to go down with so many seemingly inevitable disappointments. Expensive too! And like you, I was terrified that I might get pregnant again (through IVF), only to suffer another loss -- that was scarier in many ways than never being pregnant again.


For various professional reasons, most of my female colleagues are older than I am, and about half of them don't have children. At some point I noticed that that was definitely the unhappy half. They weren't taking advantage of their freedoms to do anything but work a lot of unpaid overtime, they were just a pretty unhappy group. I don't know if the unhappiness is a cause or effect or totally unrelated to not having kids, but I have been looking for some happy role models for a while, pretty unsuccessfully.

Yes, it can be hard to find us, but we're out here! I got lucky in that a few long-term friends ended up choosing the childfree path for entirely different reasons than me, and I made another friend in the infertility forums when we were both going through it together. We supported each other through the roller coaster, and like me, she was ultimately unsuccessful in her quest to have a child but is now happily remarried to a wonderful guy and living a great life in her late 40s. There are also a couple of childfree gals at work who are happy and have great lives, and don't live just to work longer hours.

The other group of women I've found to be fun to hang out and do things with is those who had their child(ren) young and are now empty-nesters. They aren't wheeling baby strollers or coaching soccer, and most are actively involved in hobbies (like cycling) and other healthy pursuits that interest them at this stage in their lives. Most of these women are in their 40s and 50s but have a youthful zest for life and could care less if I have children as it's just not a main topic of conversation or a huge focus in their lives any more.

I used to be hugely jealous of pregnant women, moms with babies, moms with kids, etc, but now that my friends are getting older and their kids are getting up towards the difficult teen years, I found that that envy has melted away. My life is simpler and with fewer worries -- I never have to worry about my kid driving drunk or using drugs.

It really does get a lot better as you get older and the immediacy of the fertility struggle is in the past. :)

Emily

[GLC1968]

I’ve been telling people my whole life that I never wanted kids. Many of them say that “You’ll change your mind,” or “Just wait and see,” or some other nonsense. I find that response arrogant and patronizing. In my 39-years of existence, I can’t recall ever telling anyone that their personal beliefs and aspirations were a passing phase... even if I did not agree with it.


Me too.

Xeney - while I have never wanted children (and I was lucky enough to fall in love with a man who felt the same way), I do find myself 'wavering' for all the wrong reasons. Luckily, my DH keeps me in check. I'm 38 and have been married for 3.5 years. My friends are all either my age with careers who are just now having kids, or younger than me who got married around the same time as me (met on a wedding planning board) who are now starting to have kids. Then we moved to an area where family (ie: kids) is expected. I find myself telling people 'we'll see' when they ask when we'll start trying just because it's too hard to explain 'I don't want to be a mother'. I can see how those who do want children and who don't have them (for whatever reason...some of my single girlfriends are freaking out about aging childless because they haven't met the right guy yet), would feel alienated, left out, jealous...all the above. It's hard to be childfree in a world where children are worshipped.

Someday I hope to make better peace with my decision (I know its right...it's just hard) and I pray that with age, also comes wisdom (and a few childfree friends!). :) Keep looking for your role models...not all of us who are childfree are miserable (or if we are, perhaps it's not because something is missing...but because society tells us we are weird! ;) )

[Eden]

I’ve been telling people my whole life that I never wanted kids. Many of them say that “You’ll change your mind,” or “Just wait and see,” or some other nonsense. I find that response arrogant and patronizing. In my 39-years of existence, I can’t recall ever telling anyone that their personal beliefs and aspirations were a passing phase... even if I did not agree with it.

Many people who want/have kids simply cannot fathom why others don’t. My parents consider it one’s duty to procreate.

I sooo understand. I'm another childless by choice person. I've heard all of the same comments, been told I'm selfish, I'll change my mind, I'll regret it etc. etc. I knew I did not want to be responsible for kids from a very early age - I was a teenager and I already knew it. I had figured that I probably would be single forever too, but I found a guy who was just as sure he did not want kids too and we've been very happy together. Fortunately for us we live 2,000 miles from most of our relatives, so the pressure is not constant, as we are still young enough for his folks to hold out hopes (mine know I won't change my mind).

I've never been a maternal kind of person. I have two cats and they are a handful enough - I'm not even dog material, much less kid material as far as providing the kind of care and supervision that raising a child (or a dog) requires. I really think that it is better to know you don't want kids than to have kids and then figure it out, which far too many people seem to do. I'm not a kid hater. I just know its better for me and for any possible child to not go there. There are people who are completely cut out for it. My husband knows some guys who are the best dads you could see. One guy has 7 I think and I can't imagine telling him he shouldn't have had them. He's a great dad and all kids deserve one like him.

I certainly don't feel unfulfilled in any manner, by not having kids. I definitely don't fit into the category of just working longer and longer hours and being miserable. In fact I've been pretty adamant about not working unpaid overtime, because I want time to take care of me - and right now I'm just been laid off and I don't plan to go right back to work. Not having kids means I can be totally flexible with my life. I don't have to plan everything out and around the schedule of the kids. My husband and I have been able to travel and take time off from working if we wish to without the kind of financial worries having dependants brings. We can be spontaneous - stay another day, go somewhere on a moments notice, do nothing if we choose. I just don't feel like I need to leave a legacy. Like She-fly I've just completed my first year of racing and I doubt I would have even considered it if I had kids to take care of - especially not with both of us racing, there wouldn't have been anyone left to watch the kids. (yes there are plenty of women on the team with kids -and some with both parents involved in racing- I don't know how they manage)

Maybe you see what you want to see, but I feel like we've seen the opposite from Xeney. We've seen many of my husband's co-workers with kids seem miserable compared to the childless ones - maybe because its guys and not women?? They seem to have nothing but worries over how they are going to support their families, and they feel trapped in horrible jobs, being forced to work longer and longer hours to keep said jobs so that they can pay for all of the things their families demand. Medical bills, private school, mortgage in a suburb. Sure, you don't need these things to have kids, but the pressure to have them is there so they work and stress and work some more. One of the saddest things I heard was a guy in the next cubicle from my husband listening to his kid's violin recital over the phone.... My husband quit from that company without finding another job first- a luxury that his coworkers with kids could not afford.

Anyway - I don't think anyone should feel bad, what ever decision they make. Having kids or not having kids is a very personal thing. You need to know if you want and are ready to do it, not just have them because it is expected and society tells you to. There are far too many unwanted / neglected kids from all walks of life - and you don't have to be poor to neglect a kid. Teenagers who commit suicide, because daddy bought them a Toyota rather than a Lexus IMHO have been neglected too, even if it wasn't in a finiancial way. If you want kids and are emotionally and financially ready for it by all means do it. If you are just having kids because you think they will make your life complete, perhaps you ought to sit down and really think about it some more.

[Kitsune06]

I think the most frustrating part is that she knows that when xdh and I got married, a few months after, we agreed on a vasectomy so we would never have to worry. We were *that* sure. I'm afraid that she just chooses to believe I'll change my mind, and at some point once we've been together 7 or 8 years, she'll say "It's almost too late- I want to have a kid" or "It's too late- I can't!" or whatever and be upset at *me*... and I know I'm not 'selfish'. I was about 6 when I learned women didn't "automatically" have children, and it was the happiest revelation of my young life. I've never wanted children. Conversely, it's always been something she's wanted... and i'm afraid it'll end in grave disappointment or the like. Sure I have thought parenthood out- thoroughly. And it thoroughly terrifies me. I'd rather be an aunt or "aunt"... just babysitting for friends' children...

It was being at TE that made me realize that a) I may never change my mind on this b) it's not 'wrong', I'm not somehow mentally 'defective'... it's just the way I am... and I'm not ashamed... just afraid of what the future might hold.

[xeney]

If you are just having kids because you think they will make your life complete, perhaps you ought to sit down and really think about it some more.

You know, I get this a lot, and it bugs me. I would never question someone else's statement that they don't want kids -- if you say you don't want them, I assume you have come to that decision through rational means. But why would you not assume that people who want kids have gone through the same thought process? It seems fair to me to accord people who want kids the same amount of respect for their decisions ... if you are talking about someone who wants a child but can't have one, you are not talking about someone who got knocked up accidentally and decided, 'Oh, well, guess I'll be a parent.' You are, by definition, talking about someone who has thought about and chosen parenthood.

Kitsune, I really feel for you guys, and I hope I don't sound too jaded if I say that I think you are both going to have a rough road ahead of you. When my husband and I were in our 20s, we both knew we should break up because we had different views on the kid issue, but we were young, we were pretty happy otherwise, and I think we each secretly hoped that the other would have a change of heart. But what would have been difficult at age 25 felt emotionally impossible ten years later ... now we have 13 years of shared life history between us; we've been through all kinds of medical ups and downs, we've grown up together and we are still best friends. There are days when I think that I should divorce him, that there is still time for me to adopt or have a child on my own, but at this point cutting him out of my life would feel like an amputation. I think it would have been better for both of us if we had broken up when I was 26 and he was 23 and we both were pretty sure we knew what we wanted. Not making the hard decision then has made for a lot of misery on both sides down the road.

And to be clear: I am sympathetic to the partner who does not want children. I can't imagine being a parent if you didn't want to be. And I can't imagine that it's easy to see the person you love miserable, and to know that in a real way you are the cause of that misery, and that the only way to end it is to either leave them, or do something that you really don't want to do.

I do wish I'd known then what I know, is all I'm saying.

[Kitsune06]

I know, Xeney. I'm nervous about the whole thing. I try to talk about it, but she dismisses me assuming my mind will change (and you know, sometimes it doesn't seem *so* bad...) so I don't know... mwbr I suppose. I just wish she'd stop assuming this sh*t about me. I understand her desire, though, she's worked with kids her entire professional life. blah. Let's return to our regularly scheduled thread... :confused:

[Geonz]

One explanation that rather floored the person I tried it on, but I think it worked, is that for me being single is my calling. I want to be able to give of myself ... but a nunnery would be the wrong setting. (Not sure about a monastery - I do get along better with men :) - but institutions and I just do NOT get along for some reason or other, or was it a thousand reasons :)).
It kinda befuddled the man, but he's accepted that I'm not interested in his affections, and he'll be off to greener pastures should someone come along that changes my attitude of where I can best be the brightest flower I can...
People *very* rarely question my singleness, though... especially if they know me at all. People do not try to set me up with people; I've asked myself if I"m *that* weird, but ... I think it's just that they can honestly see that I'm happy.
I've also said that there isn't a man out there who's smart enough to keep up with me, and dumb enough to put up with me. It's basically true :)

[mtkitchn]

Nokomis,
Have you considered a support group or a counselor? If it is a issue which bothers you on a regular basis, you should talk to someone who understands what you are going through.
Sue

[rocknrollgirl]

I too am childless by choice, but it breaks my heart when I hear about women that really want children and are having trouble. I am very sorry that you are having a difficult time.

It was difficult when I was younger, peoples expectations of what I was supposed to do clashing with my own choice, but in the end, at the end of the day, it was still my choice.

I am sorry that you are hurting......


Ruth

[snapdragen]

I've also said that there isn't a man out there who's smart enough to keep up with me, and dumb enough to put up with me. It's basically true :)

I've just discovered Geonz is my long lost twin.....

[Offthegrid]

I'm sorry you're having this trouble. My brother and his wife have been trying for years without luck, and she found out that she has hyperthyroid. (Not that infertility and thyroids are necessarily related -- I have no clue about that -- but it's the only thing the testing has shown so far.)

I find myself lonely and single at 27. I was in a 4-year relationship and was engaged, but recently I called it off for various reasons. (Mainly, I was paying all the bills, while he was racking up credit card debt on who knows what. Also, he'd get mad if I went and did something on my own, but never wanted to do anything.)

I'm so happy to be out of this relationship, but it does raise the question: Will I ever meet someone? I'm not in a hurry to have kids, but I definitely am starting to feel the pressure.

But I get to be around kids because I tutor at a city school district and I help coach soccer.

[CyclChyk]

Offthegrid - I was a product of a very bad divorce and swore I would never marry. I was not looking when it hit me. I married at 31. Not old, but not at an age when people *assumed* I should already be married.

Also, we both decided we did not want kids and made it so we would not have any. We have no regrets. And if we wake up in our 40's and just KNOW that we want a kid, we both agree we will adopt. There are so many unwanted kids out there. And it would be a gift to all concerned if that is an avenue we take.

You will find someone. It may not be tomorrow but it will happen in its own time. And until then, just enjoy not having to answer to anyone for anything. (I think that's the one thing I miss about being single).

[Lenusik]

I have no idea who to talk to about this ~ or how to resolve all the emotions.

I realize that ladies here on the board are trying to be supportive by telling about their stories, pains, and decisions. But you sound like you are still trying. And one day you may still be very pleasantly surprised. I have several friends who are trying to concive. Invitro, and other procedures, all of this is too much for the emotions.

Maybe you should go to a different doctor and look for a different opinion. I am not an expert and maybe I do not have a right to suggest. But there is a clinic in Odessa, Ukraine. I am from there and I know a lot about it. They specialize in infertility treatments and do miracles. They use natural mud, mineral water, salt caves, and definitely medical research that they've done for many years. Please check out their website. http://www.kuyalnik.com/index-e.html
The verbiage could sound a little funny, you know, things get lost in translation. But the amount of money and effort that you give could be used there in this clinic where you can always find a good translator. Maybe when you learn about their research, you can potentially look for something like this in the US.

Best of luck to you! You will be just fine no matter of the result!

[bacarver]

Interesting discussion taking place here. I am 46 and my husband is 59. We've been married 17 years. He was my high school history teacher. We entered the marriage knowing that we wouldn't have our own because of our age difference. Adoption was a choice. We adopted 2 kids in 1994. They turned our lives into pure hell. I will never recover from the way they treated us. The nightmares continue even though they've been gone for 6 years. I have no nieces, nephews, . . . anything. I do volunteer at the local animal shelter to fill my need to hug, care, and provide love to living beings that need it. I see other families that "work" and I wonder why I can't have what they have. I have it to give but cannot participate. Adoption does succeed sometimes, but I know several families who have lived through awful days because the kids are so messed up. The adoption workers (state level in our situation) add to the misery. Even if we had agreed to have at least one child of our own, there would have been no guarantee as to intelligence, physical/mental health, or lifespan. It is so hard to want something more than anything and to have it denied. I have tried to cope with my grief by ignoring it. Talking about it makes it real. I'm trying to forget. I feel like a failure and I question the decision I made when I got married in 1989. I have a good life partner and I cannot bail out now. If we had our own child, he/she would be about 12 years old now. But this child does not exist and never will. Would a child make me feel better about myself? Would I be happier? I'll never know. I do have more freedom for cycling, doing what I want, spending money, retiring earlier. In my next life, I will have children.
Barb

[doc]

I definitely don't want to upset you, but I have never understood not wanting to adopt. I absolutely don't want to make you uncomfortable or put pressure on you but I wonder what your reasons for avoiding adoption are. (Please don't think I'm asking you to state them here, I just say it to encourage you to possibly revisit the idea).

I have taken care of so many adopted children. Some have been adopted from other countries, some from the same township and everything in between. Some have been the same race as the parents, some have not. The families are just like any other family. They experience love, pride, joy, heartache, fear, and everything else like any other family. The only difference I've noticed is in the few families who try to keep it a secret. Those who are matter-of-fact usually find adoption is a complete non-issue.

One of my favorite stories is a friend of mine who is white and married to a korean. They couldn't concieve so they arranged to adopt a korean baby. Then, of course she immediately became pregnant. The baby physically takes after her father. So when she would be out taking care of two little "asian" babies less than 9 months apart people would ask her if she is the babysitter! It drove her nuts (in a funny way, not a bad way)

[Nokomis]

Hey all ~ thought I'd pop back in with an update.

I was finally able to figure out that my restlessness with this topic is because I'm not ready to be done trying yet - for as much as I tried to be. DH and I had a great talk, and we're going to explore IUI. If this doesn't work, we still need to find a solution to the spotting, and DH and I will be searching out counseling. We should have a plan in place by the end of the year.

I know that adoption is a wonderful option for many families. I have 2 adopted brothers, one domestic, on international. My grandmother does homestudies for adoptions. But I know that for me and for us, it's not the right choice. I respect those who can and are successful with it.

[xeney]

There is also the cold hard fact that unless you are adopting a special needs child, adoption costs about $20,000-$30,000. (I have seen figures as low as $10,000-$15,000, but nobody I know who has adopted has gotten out for less than $20K.) In the US you get a tax credit of $10,000, I think, but that's still a big drop in the college fund. I know that for a lot of people infertility treatment is also very expensive, but for me, at least, it is mostly covered by insurance. Not that we are going that route, but I have to admit that it would be one consideration.

It never occurred to me until I started looking into the options that a major reason that most people seem to pursue IF treatment rather than adoption is the money factor. I find that very depressing.

[hellosunshine]

i cant have kids either and i realise i cope by burying my head in the sand,this thread opened it all up,but in a nice way,in a sharing way..........seems some days when you go into town everyone is pregnant.We have a charity locally called the friendship project,you look after disadvantaged kids one/two days a week,ive looked after several kids,from Downs syndrome/sex abused/bullied etc etc even when they turn 16 and social services withdraws the service to them/you.i find i have a kind of extended family of kids ive helped along the way,and its not a replacement,but its a nice warm feeling.when i stop racing(selfish or what)id love to do this again.im scared the rigmarole of interviews etc etc for adopting would be as much stress as IVF.if they rejected me then id think i was a physical AND MENTAL reject.

[crazybikinchic]

People ask me on a regular basis about adopting and don't understand why
DH and I don't want to. We agree, it is just not for us. Somedays I too feel that EVERYBODY and there dogs are pregnant and/or have babies. The "role" that I was most proud of was being a mommy. Most people can't understand why we don't try for more. It's hard to tell them that we will not do that to another child because our daughters life was hades on Earth. I have even had people tell me that they would rather have lost children at an early age, then have them grow up and know that they are going to hades. One of the days that really affects me is Mother's Day. I have tried to go to church on that day, but the preacher always seems to preach in honor of the mother's. It's hard for people to understand that I don't feel like a mother and haven't for several years. That is one day that I choose to stay at home, away from everone. The emotions that you are feeling is something that those of us that want children and can not have children seem to feel. It's hard to believe sometimes that there is a plan for us. It's even difficult to believe that somehow I didn't do something to "deserve" this. I try to remember that Megan was given to us for a reason, that had she been with someone else, she would not have lived as long as she did (we should have lost her on her first Christmas, but by the grace of God, we had her for 2 wonderful years).
I feel that those of us that so desperately want children but can not have them will be blessed in other ways.

[CyclChyk]

{{{{{Crazy}}}}} So much pain in your post brought tears to my eyes.
I am so sorry for your loss but so admire your strength.

[hellosunshine]

yes,all very harrowing yet so strong.in admiration,BIG HUG.

[Bad JuJu]

One enlightening thing I'm learning from this thread is that there are other women like me, who never in their lives wanted to be mothers. I thought I was unique in that respect, so never mentioned it. As a child, I never even wanted to play with dolls, though I adored my many stuffed animals. When someone in my family had a new baby, I was the only female in the family not ooh-ing and ahh-ing over the new addition.

What a relief to find out I'm not the only one!

[spokewench]

My husband and I decided not to have children shortly before my 40th birthday - I had given the hubby that deadline to decide if he really wanted to raise children. I'm 46 now and don't miss having children BUT if you are the type that really wants children and it certainly sounds like you are, THEN GO ADOPT SOME!

There are so many needy children out there and I know you would love them as much as if you bore them yourself!

:)