CX Hurts....

[madisongrrl]

I'm an avid Sport level mountain bike racer and I usually do reasonably well. My fitness took a bit of a dip this year because my hours/stress at work went up while my training went down. Even so, If I put in enough training this winter, I'll probably be able to race in the Elite class sometime next year. That being said, I SUCK at CX... I had my second race this weekend and it hurt so bad that I couldn't stand it. The best part of the race is the finish. The pace is so fast that I crack...and have to drop back. I feel that a 2 hour mountain bike race is easier than a 45 minute CX race.

It seems to me that in CX there is no place or time to recover. If you do, you will be dropped. I'm also finding that having a good start is imperative...which is true of mountain bike racing...but I think is even more important in CX (as yesterdays race taught me). Also, drafting is helpful. It seems that in the Cat 3 races, some teammates are working together.


For those of you who race, what type of training do you do? Specifically what type of high intensity interval training do you do?

My goals for CX are 1. Have it hurt less, thus making it more enjoyable. 2. Finish a little higher up in the standings. 3. Settle in more....right now I feel these races are chaos and I'm not super comfortable like I am when mountain bike racing.

[velogirl]

If you look at heart rate files for CX and time trials, they're very similar -- 40 minute balls-to-the-wall effort. Power, on-the-other-hand, is very different as cross is anything but a constant effort.

Do you run at all? If not, that would be one good place to start fine-tuning your training. The runs are typically short and intense, but enough so that they can make your already high HR go even higher. You need to learn to be efficient during the runs and with your mounts, dismounts, and barriers. If you can be efficient, you can keep your HR in check.

Although you've only done two races, can you see a pattern of where you get dropped? Is it just after the runs? Or at the more technical sections? Or on the flatter power sections? See if you can notice a trend -- this will help you determine how to focus your training.

Cross hurts. There's no way around it. Even when you look at the pros, it hurts. That's what's so darn fun. XC races are much easier -- 2 hours of aerobic riding. CX is a short, hard, anaerobic effort.

Given all that, I'm training a bit differently this season than in past years.

I do one day of 2 x 20s on the bike (ie the TT effort). I run 3 or 4 days a week and include short intervals in all those sessions (30s and 60s). I spend at least two days riding easy and focusing on my skills and technique. And I'm lifting weights twice a week too. My on-bike hours are WAY down from what I typically train, but I know that I need to focus on some different weaknesses right now so I'm doing that. I miss my long rides, though, so I'm going to try to slip one in each week if I can.

[madisongrrl]

Here are a few pics that a friend took. As you can see, I'm the most happy at the finishline.

http://rebach.smugmug.com/gallery/2015481




Do you run at all? If not, that would be one good place to start fine-tuning your training. The runs are typically short and intense, but enough so that they can make your already high HR go even higher. You need to learn to be efficient during the runs and with your mounts, dismounts, and barriers. If you can be efficient, you can keep your HR in check.

Unfortunately running is out for me at the current time. There is something wrong with my foot (had X-rays, MRI etc) but we are not exactly sure what. I've seen so many docs, pt's etc in the last two years that I'm sick of appointments. I can run at a cross race, but I can not do any run training (I can run but then I pay for it with 1-2 weeks of foot/pain)...which really sucks. I used to be a multisport athlete before this foot thing and I had to give up running. But on the other hand, it has made me a decent mountain biker.



Although you've only done two races, can you see a pattern of where you get dropped? Is it just after the runs? Or at the more technical sections? Or on the flatter power sections? See if you can notice a trend -- this will help you determine how to focus your training.

I get dropped on the flats cause I can't push as hard (same as mountain biking). I have a smaller build and am not a powerful person. I'm also a bit scared to turn it up a notch even when I think I should. I'm still trying to find my limits for CX, which will take some time and experience. For example, I the person sitting on my wheel was breathing so hard that I thought she was going to explode. I was hurting (probably more mental than physical), but was breathing just fine. I should have stepped on the gas and dropped her, but I was too afraid to push my limits, thinking that I would blow up.



Cross hurts. There's no way around it. Even when you look at the pros, it hurts. That's what's so darn fun. XC races are much easier -- 2 hours of aerobic riding. CX is a short, hard, anaerobic effort.

Very true....which is what I'm finding out race by race.



Given all that, I'm training a bit differently this season than in past years.

I do one day of 2 x 20s on the bike (ie the TT effort). I run 3 or 4 days a week and include short intervals in all those sessions (30s and 60s). I spend at least two days riding easy and focusing on my skills and technique. And I'm lifting weights twice a week too. My on-bike hours are WAY down from what I typically train, but I know that I need to focus on some different weaknesses right now so I'm doing that. I miss my long rides, though, so I'm going to try to slip one in each week if I can.

I wish I could do some running, but unfortunately that is on the back burner right now. So you only really do one day of bike intervals/ week? I'm guessing you probably put in a decent amount of work in this summer. I might have to spend some time on my intervals to help the whole cracking/getting dropped issue. I've been doing very little interval work since July (my job has turned into a big headache) and I could probably stand to pick the interval work back up again. I've been meaning to start up the weights also. So much to do so little time....

[velogirl]

So, it sounds to me that your mental limiter is more powerful than any physical limiters right now. What are you afraid might happen if you really push it, Renee? I always suggest my athletes go beyond that line at least once. Usually they surprise themselves -- the world doesn't end.

Think of it this way. If you push more to hang with the leaders, what are the possible outcomes? One, you could blow and not finish with the leaders or maybe DFL. Two, you could be in a world of hurt but still hang with the leaders. Three, you could hang and still have a little something left in the tank for the sprint finish.

You don't know what your limitations are until you really push to find them.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Training. Since I'm doing run intervals (short), I don't need to do short intervals on the bike right now. My bike intervals are longer (20 min). If I weren't running, I'd probably add one day of short bike intervals. But, everyone is different. I raced non-stop from October 2005 to August 2006. I don't recommend that for most folks, but I had some special circumstances going on. I needed a break from the bike and wanted to run and lift, so that's how I developed my training for this fall. My goal races for cross are in December so I'll pick back up on the bike in November. It's strange not to train 15-20 hours a week, but it actually works well with my work schedule right now because my workouts are shorter and my total training time is only about 8-10 hours a week. And I can see huge improvements in my strength and running already.

If you need to improve your power on the flats, I recommend resistance training along with TT-type intervals (2 x 20s). You could do these on the road or even better, on the dirt on your cross bike. One of the hardest challenges in cross is still powering when you're bouncing all over the place. You'll notice the best racers keep their speed/momentum up on the bouncy flats while the more novice races coast a lot. You need to learn how to ride it out.

The other thing that really helps in cross is to optimize your accelerations out of transitions. So short intervals are good too (15 sec, 30 sec, 60 sec). For example, you scrub some speed to make a technical section but then you need to get back up to speed really quickly.

If you can't run, could you get a non-bike high-level cardio workout on an elliptical? That might help with the intensity.

Then again, I think the real answer is your fear to push yourself to the edge. You should try it sometime. Pick a throw-away race and just see what happens. You might really surprise yourself.

[velogirl]

ps -- you said you looked happy at the finish. Every photo I've seen of yesterday's race, we all look dead at the finish. Here's a photo of Lauren, me, and Erin (E2theD). You can't see Lauren's face -- she had a big crash, too. But just look at me & Erin. I can barely hold myself up (I'm sitting on my toptube) and we both look like we're ready to lose lunch.

To add insult to injury, I roll back to the start line after I've finished to retrieve the half water bottle I'd left at the start. My bottle was there but someone drank the water. I could've cried.

Of course, today I'll say it was one of the best courses I've ever raced, and if I hadn't had that darn asthma attack I would've been much happier.

[SheFly]

Yup - 'cross definitely hurts. I remember when I used to race MTB, and it never felt like this.

On the other hand, after a season of full on road racing and TT efforts, it isn't really that bad. I think Velogirl has it right - if you can go out and do a couple of 20 min full on max efforts, that will go a long way to helping you feel better about the 'cross racing. I know that without my TT skills, my anaerobic power/threshold wouldn't be where it is right now.


I get dropped on the flats cause I can't push as hard (same as mountain biking). I have a smaller build and am not a powerful person. I'm also a bit scared to turn it up a notch even when I think I should. I'm still trying to find my limits for CX, which will take some time and experience. For example, I the person sitting on my wheel was breathing so hard that I thought she was going to explode. I was hurting (probably more mental than physical), but was breathing just fine. I should have stepped on the gas and dropped her, but I was too afraid to push my limits, thinking that I would blow up.

Again, I have to agree with the great advice Velogirl has given you - pick a race and go out and push yourself as hard as you can - I think you'll be impressed with the results.

My training is really ramping down at this point in the season because I am tired (been racing since April). However, I am typically out on Tues nights doing a 2 hour MTB ride and either Weds or Thurs night I am out on the 'cross bike doing race course intervals. We have a small area where we can simulate a 'cross race (we bring our own barriers), so doing a number of laps with recovery in between is great training for the weekend races.

Above all, make sure that you are HAVING FUN! Training and results are all good, but when I stop having fun, I will stop racing....

SheFly

[madisongrrl]

So, it sounds to me that your mental limiter is more powerful than any physical limiters right now. What are you afraid might happen if you really push it, Renee? I always suggest my athletes go beyond that line at least once. Usually they surprise themselves -- the world doesn't end.

The lack of structured training (on and off since July) is a bit of a physical limiter, but I think it shoots the confidence down more than anything. My limits for mountain biking have certainly been lowered. My late season results have not been as great. If I do push myself too hard, I just might get the pleasure of being dead last. Dead last seems like it is a very easy thing to attain in cross. A few screw-ups or a bad start (depending on the course) and you will be the caboose! And no, the world won't end, but it certainly makes for a long week at work. Have you ever seen the movie office space? That is how my job is right now...except on a larger, corporate level. So recently, my outlets (cycling & racing) have had a greater impact on my emotional life.

This weekend is a double header CX weekend. I wasn't going to race the Saturday race, but maybe I'll just call it my experimental day. I'll just go balls out and blow myself up on Saturday to see what happens. I need to get this sport figured out, before I start to hate it and sell my brand new bike.



Think of it this way. If you push more to hang with the leaders, what are the possible outcomes? One, you could blow and not finish with the leaders or maybe DFL. Two, you could be in a world of hurt but still hang with the leaders. Three, you could hang and still have a little something left in the tank for the sprint finish.

You don't know what your limitations are until you really push to find them.



Very true. I'll see if I'm up for it this Saturday. Then, I'll take my new found knowlege into Sunday's race.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Training. Since I'm doing run intervals (short), I don't need to do short intervals on the bike right now. My bike intervals are longer (20 min). If I weren't running, I'd probably add one day of short bike intervals. But, everyone is different. I raced non-stop from October 2005 to August 2006. I don't recommend that for most folks, but I had some special circumstances going on. I needed a break from the bike and wanted to run and lift, so that's how I developed my training for this fall. My goal races for cross are in December so I'll pick back up on the bike in November. It's strange not to train 15-20 hours a week, but it actually works well with my work schedule right now because my workouts are shorter and my total training time is only about 8-10 hours a week. And I can see huge improvements in my strength and running already.

I usually strive for 8-10 hours a week, but recently it has been less than 5. Luckily in Wisconsin, you stop racing from Dec to March. But, that also means you have to sit on the boring trainer or be prepared to ride in 10 degree weather conditions.



If you need to improve your power on the flats, I recommend resistance training along with TT-type intervals (2 x 20s). You could do these on the road or even better, on the dirt on your cross bike. One of the hardest challenges in cross is still powering when you're bouncing all over the place. You'll notice the best racers keep their speed/momentum up on the bouncy flats while the more novice races coast a lot. You need to learn how to ride it out.


I think I'll actually head to the basement right now and bust out a 2x20 on the trainer. I also need to get outside and ride my CX bike. It has only been ridden for 2 CX races, 1 Ben Turner CX clinic and 1 commute to work. I'm still not totally comfortable on it. I had my fit done by my favorite local high end bike shop ( www.cronometro.com ) and it feels great...but I still have to get used to the bike. The fit is similar to my road fit, but there are some subtle differences and my muscles are being worked in a slightly different way...or so it feels.




If you can't run, could you get a non-bike high-level cardio workout on an elliptical? That might help with the intensity.

I'll have to see. I'm having top of the foot, base of the big toe joint, nerve/tendon/capsule pinching pain. So I'm not sure if the strap on the elliptical will irritate my foot or not. To be determined....but I really miss running.



Then again, I think the real answer is your fear to push yourself to the edge. You should try it sometime. Pick a throw-away race and just see what happens. You might really surprise yourself.

Saturday is the day. I'll either get a big surprise or I'll pass out and not finish. But either way at least there will be a race on Sunday in which I can redeem myself. Sometimes I sit back and think, "Wow, we actually pay people money so we can race in their events and put ourselves through some of the greatest physical and mental suffering that is personally possible". I guess there are worse addictions in life - like crack or McDonald's. Though a crack habit might cost less than my cycling addiction.;)

[velogirl]

Here's a quick tip. From September to January I don't ride my road bike at all. I do lots of road rides, but I throw a set of road wheels on my cross bike. You're right that there are enough subtle differences in geometry and handling (and gearing and braking) that you have to become super-zen with your cross bike. That might be a good suggestion for you too!

Oh, and until this season, my road bikes were campy and my cross bikes were shimano. What a stupid decision that was. I finally switched the cross bike to campy, too!

Good luck on Saturday.

Oh, do you know anything about the courses for Saturday and Sunday? Are they courses that will suit you? You might want to consider that before you commit to "do or die."

[madisongrrl]

Oh, do you know anything about the courses for Saturday and Sunday? Are they courses that will suit you? You might want to consider that before you commit to "do or die."

I don't know anything about the courses. I do know that Saturday's race isn't going to be that great (historically) and Sunday's race is the one to do. It would be a little nicer if they were switched...but I'll use Saturday's as a throw away. Hopefully I won't be too spent for Sunday.

[madisongrrl]

Yup - 'cross definitely hurts. I remember when I used to race MTB, and it never felt like this.

I agree...



On the other hand, after a season of full on road racing and TT efforts, it isn't really that bad. I think Velogirl has it right - if you can go out and do a couple of 20 min full on max efforts, that will go a long way to helping you feel better about the 'cross racing. I know that without my TT skills, my anaerobic power/threshold wouldn't be where it is right now.

Yeah, TT skills are something that I don't have and would definitely be an asset for CX. I really love mountain bike racing, but the season takes up so much time that I don't have time to race or train for other cycling disciplines. I might try to fit a few crits or road races in next year just to be more well rounded.





Above all, make sure that you are HAVING FUN! Training and results are all good, but when I stop having fun, I will stop racing....

SheFly

I love racing and usually think its fun, but I'm really hating CX right now. If I start to have better results (and hurt less), I think I'll like it more....

[SheFly]

I love racing and usually think its fun, but I'm really hating CX right now. If I start to have better results (and hurt less), I think I'll like it more....

So, what do you hate about it? If you really do hate it, I would suggest not doing it.

For me, the results are secondary. The race is definitely painful - it's a full on effort for the entire time. Last weekend, I raced through an asthma attack, but I kept going because I was having a great time. I finished 16th out of 26 starters - definitely not stellar, but I rode full out, finished, and had fun traipsing through the mud and over obstacles... If I had hated it, I definitely would not have gone back for more on Sunday.

Think about why you are doing 'cross in the first place. As I said earlier, if you really do hate it, it might not be worth doing, at least for this season.

SheFly

[velogirl]

I have to agree with SheFly. Why do something you hate? Cross is a sport about so many different levels of achievement. But having goals based on specific results is detrimental to your success -- especially in your first year of racing cross.

[madisongrrl]

So, what do you hate about it?


It's not mountain bike racing...but it will have to do.





Think about why you are doing 'cross in the first place. As I said earlier, if you really do hate it, it might not be worth doing, at least for this season.

SheFly
I primarily doing CX to become a better cyclist and more importantly a stronger mountain bike racer. I had my double header this weekend and I enjoyed myself a little more, even though my results were not great. Since the womens race fields here can be smaller, results seem to hinge upon who shows up and who doesn't.

[velogirl]

I look forward to hearing about your races, Renee. Yes, results will totally depend on who shows up. That's why goals based on personal achievement, rather than results, are always good.

I'm in an interesting situation in one of our local series. I decided to race masters even though all the women in that category kick my butt (many masters national champions in our races). However, I'm able to compare my times with the other categories and the women's start list as a whole, so I can see progress. In the first race, I finished 41st of 53 total women (A,B,C, and masters). This race I finished 36th of 52. Progress, right? Of course, my real benchmark is where I'd finish wth the Cs since I raced Cs the last three seasons. For the past two races, I'd finish 6th in the Cs which makes me happy.

My goals, however, have very little to do with placing, and more to do with things I can control -- how I handle different technical areas of the course, barriers, mounts, etc.

[madisongrrl]

I look forward to hearing about your races, Renee. Yes, results will totally depend on who shows up. That's why goals based on personal achievement, rather than results, are always good.

Definitely....the fields seem to be much smaller than mt. biking. I was a little bent out of shape after the first two races about my results...but now I'm over it. I have to look at this differently than mountain bike racing.

On saturday the Cat 1/2 and 3 women raced together. I think there were only 12 of us and not too many slow women showed up. While I didn't finish dead last, it was pretty close. I was lapped by 4 women. Getting lapped sucks, but these particular individuals were very, very fast. So I don't feel too terrible about it. The conditions were awful, the absolute worst possible situation. The mud was thick, slow, deep, grinding, awful. The course was not very technical and they mowed the grass the day before. I unhooked my front and back breaks (as did just about everyone) just to be able to pedal my bike. It was cold, rainy...so it was just about survival. It didn't kill me, so hopefully it made me tougher....cause everything after that experience should be easy. My legs hurt so bad that night that I had to pop a few ibprofin.

Sunday's race was much more technical, but very muddy because it snowed the night before then melted. While the mud was really bad, it wasn't deep like Saturday's race. I decided to just go out as hard as I could and I did. I actually led the race for the 1st 1/2 lap or so. I seriously thought I took a wrong turn off the course and had to look behind me because I wasn't sure why there weren't any women passing me. As my teammate came up behind me she told me to quit looking backward and to start pushing (LOL)! My legs gave out on me 1.5 laps in and my quad started to cramp so I pulled out of the race. Too much standing and grinding from the day before. I just wanted to see what was possible. It is now Monday and my legs are so sore....they are burning and weak. So it will be a little bit of rest and back to the trainer tomorrow.



I'm in an interesting situation in one of our local series. I decided to race masters even though all the women in that category kick my butt (many masters national champions in our races). However, I'm able to compare my times with the other categories and the women's start list as a whole, so I can see progress. In the first race, I finished 41st of 53 total women (A,B,C, and masters). This race I finished 36th of 52. Progress, right? Of course, my real benchmark is where I'd finish wth the Cs since I raced Cs the last three seasons. For the past two races, I'd finish 6th in the Cs which makes me happy.
.

You live in California, correct? I'll bet you get some pretty tough competition at CX races...since California seems to be such a hotbed for cycling.

[velogirl]

You live in California, correct? I'll be you get some pretty tough competition at CX races...since California seems to be such a hotbed for cycling.

First, congrats on your races. Be patient and I bet you'll be kicking butt sometime soon. Isn't it a cool feeling to give it everything? Since you raced hard the day before, you weren't able to hold it, but try it again when you're frest and I bet you'll see a different result.

Yes, I'm in CA. They race all the women together here, although they stagger starts. We almost always get lapped by the A women. We have so many national-level racers and world's team members here -- Barb Howe, Sarah Kerlin (national masters champ), Melodie Metzger (national collegiate champ), Josie Beggs, Linda Elgart (national masters champ), Stella Carey (world single speed champ), Rachel Lloyd (world team member), etc. They're really in a league of their own.

I think that's why we've got so many women racing Bs who really belong in the As -- they don't want to compete with these women. It's too bad, because you end up with lots of sandbagging in the Bs, which also trickles down to the Cs. I think if USAC ever really institutes the category/upgrade system, it might change. But the local promoters are still basically ignoring that system.

It's actually frustrating for the As (racing with the beginners) and the Cs (racing with the elites), but at least they give the women a race of their own.

[madisongrrl]

Yes, I'm in CA. They race all the women together here, although they stagger starts. We almost always get lapped by the A women. We have so many national-level racers and world's team members here -- Barb Howe, Sarah Kerlin (national masters champ), Melodie Metzger (national collegiate champ), Josie Beggs, Linda Elgart (national masters champ), Stella Carey (world single speed champ), Rachel Lloyd (world team member), etc. They're really in a league of their own.

These people are certainly in a league of their own. So they compete in your state's local series...maybe they should have a category of their own. In our mountain bike series, we get local and regional pros that drop in time to time to poach races that have decent payouts. They race in the same category as our Elites and totally smack everyone down. But, there aren't enough Pros to have a "Pro" category.



I think that's why we've got so many women racing Bs who really belong in the As -- they don't want to compete with these women. It's too bad, because you end up with lots of sandbagging in the Bs, which also trickles down to the Cs. I think if USAC ever really institutes the category/upgrade system, it might change. But the local promoters are still basically ignoring that system.

While sandbagging happens everywhere, your situation seems to be an extreme example of it. This is the kind of stuff that kills cycling for women and will hurt the future of women in cycling and CX. Do they have a beginner category for new racers, or is it just A,B and C? The USAC should really come down on promoters and make them conform to regulation. We pay for our cycling liscenses for a reason...don't we?

[velogirl]

Actually, I think it pushes you to race harder and faster. And many of the elite racers lead clinics so they're very accessible. I'd say they do have a league of their own -- the As -- but it discourages other A-level women from racing with them. The leader of the Bs is a pro mtn biker (and former national champion). She should be racing As rather than smacking the Bs around. Alas.....

I don't necessarily think the local system is bad. At this point, promoters are giving you the leverage to race in the category you want to race. I think in future years USAC will get a bit stricter about it.

Cs are beginners in CA. I've found the way to get women into the sport and retain them is to give them a lot of support. Velo Girls and Velo Bella do this very well for cross. Other teams don't seem to have the same level of commitment to the beginners.

Oh, the other bizarre thing in this series is that they have big bucks prizes for the winners in the lower categories. For example, the winner of the C women gets a complete felt cyclocross bike. That discourages her from upgrading to Bs even though she'd do well there. Of course, she's only ever done two cross races in her life, so she really is a beginner.

[eteamer]

Ok, after years lurking this topic has gotten my attention. I have been racing the A women in Norcal for quite a while and what you say definitely resonates with me. For sure racing with fast women makes you faster. I actually don't think the races are as fast as they are when Carmen, Gina and Rachel were out there piling on the hurt, but they are still at a very high level and that is good. But I have to agree that it makes the categories weird. I could race 35+ and win, but I usually beat the winner of that category by minutes, so I race A's. That means I have people to race in the middle of the pack, but don't have a prayer of seeing the front of the race. So my questions is why can't the promoters go to a 1-4 format and score the categories separately? I think it would help. What do you think VeloGirl?

[velogirl]

Ooh! Now you've got me all curious -- who are you? Andi? Email me off-line if you don't want the world to know.

Not sure why they didn't categorize the races. I think the old-school promoters wanted to keep the spirit of self-selection alive. Since there are no mandatory upgrades at this point, I guess it doesn't really matter. The local promoters gave category guidelines (ie C = 4, B = 2-4, A = 1-3) but nothing more. Once they really start awarding points for upgrades and there are mandatories, I think it might make the sport a bit fairer, especially wrt the sandbaggers.

My sense is there will be stricter guidelines for masters nationals in future years (ie must be CAT3 to participate), so we'll see some folks upgrading out of CAT4 so they can go to natz). The proposal on the table right now for 2007 is that women must be CAT3 to go to natz unless they're 45+ -- same as the restrictions for road and crits.

[madisongrrl]

ICs are beginners in CA. I've found the way to get women into the sport and retain them is to give them a lot of support. Velo Girls and Velo Bella do this very well for cross. Other teams don't seem to have the same level of commitment to the beginners.

Cat 4 is beginner here also (formerly known as C's), but some promoters have been running a special beginner category.

http://www.wicycling.org/CycloCross/flyers06/UWW%20CX%20Trash%20Dash%202006.pdf

Beginner and Cat 4 are run at the same time, but the results must get separated.



Oh, the other bizarre thing in this series is that they have big bucks prizes for the winners in the lower categories. For example, the winner of the C women gets a complete felt cyclocross bike. That discourages her from upgrading to Bs even though she'd do well there. Of course, she's only ever done two cross races in her life, so she really is a beginner

Indeed very strange. WI cycling gives the most money out for the Cat1/2, gives a little less money out for the Cat 3 and only gives merchandise out to Cat 4. This is done to discourage sandbagging for money.

[velogirl]

I think the promoters (and sponsors) are trying to support the entry-level racers, but yes, this encourages sandbagging, especially since it's a series. There are other series in the area that do a raffle for the big prizes -- that seems like a fairer way to still support the racers but discourage sandbaggers.

[eteamer]

Ooh! Now you've got me all curious -- who are you? Andi? Email me off-line if you don't want the world to know.

Not sure why they didn't categorize the races. I think the old-school promoters wanted to keep the spirit of self-selection alive. Since there are no mandatory upgrades at this point, I guess it doesn't really matter. The local promoters gave category guidelines (ie C = 4, B = 2-4, A = 1-3) but nothing more. Once they really start awarding points for upgrades and there are mandatories, I think it might make the sport a bit fairer, especially wrt the sandbaggers.

My sense is there will be stricter guidelines for masters nationals in future years (ie must be CAT3 to participate), so we'll see some folks upgrading out of CAT4 so they can go to natz). The proposal on the table right now for 2007 is that women must be CAT3 to go to natz unless they're 45+ -- same as the restrictions for road and crits.

I'm not Andi, but Allison.... I just think that the switch is going to come at some time, so why not do it and get people used to it? Even the independent places like CO are moving that way. I think it would be kind of fun really. I'm a 3, so I would be in a totally different race than I am now. You would see people ugrading and downgrading all over the place. If I go and win then hey I'm ok with being a two, but if I don't then I'm in the right race. Right? I wonder if they are just worried about the administrative headache?

[velogirl]

Hey, Allison! It's Lorri Lown (you probably figured that out). Not sure why the local promoters didn't adapt the numerical system -- probably because they don't have to do it yet. It means thinking of things in a new way, although they could just do combined CAT races and keep it similar to what they've got. There was also a lot of confusion at the beginning of the year about upgrade requirements (which will probably change). USAC had based them on road upgrade rules and for cross, with a shorter season but most folks racing more frequently, the same rules don't seem to work as well.

I think the other concern was that USAC chose categories based on road and mtn bike categories which aren't always accurate when you put someone in a cross race. I know some kick-butt roadies who have tons of fitness who probably couldn't finish a cross race!

The other strange thing is this is my 4th season racing and I don't have a single USAC result for cross. I asked Tom about this one time and he replied that it was "too much bother."

I guess we'll see what happens in 2007.

[SheFly]

In the Northeast, most promoters have moved to the new categorizations for 'cross racing. However, for women, there are typically only two fields anyway - B (3,4) or Elite (1,2,3). I have been racing as a 4, which is what is on my license, but am racing alongside the 3s as well.

We don't really have a true "beginner" category here - you kind of have to jump in with both feet.

SheFly

[eteamer]

Hey Lori! I think the initial category thing is why making the shift now is better. Get it worked out before you are forced to...Can you imagine the howling if you actually had to be a 2 or 3 to race nationals and the only racing you have ever done is cross? Oh boy.

[velogirl]

Yup! I read the proposed USAC rule changes from Tom Simonson and if it passes, you'll need to be a 3 in cross to race at nationals.

Of course, there's such a disparity between regions but I guess that's just like road too. There are parts of the country with super-strong cross programs -- Northeast, CA, CO, OR, WA. And there are parts of the country where they might get 4 women in a race.

[eteamer]

In the Northeast, most promoters have moved to the new categorizations for 'cross racing. However, for women, there are typically only two fields anyway - B (3,4) or Elite (1,2,3). I have been racing as a 4, which is what is on my license, but am racing alongside the 3s as well.

We don't really have a true "beginner" category here - you kind of have to jump in with both feet.

SheFly

And still you get really big fields! Gotta love that. Velo Girls and Velobella have definitely made it happen here on the West Coast, but in looking back at old results from around 2003 we would have like 70 women in all categories which is way more than now. And that sounds like a lot until you look at Portland where Cross Crusade is pulling in 125 women. Unbelievable.

[SheFly]

I think that this year has seen a jump in women's 'cross here in New England. I know for a fact that our team has a minimum of 6 first time racers this season. So far, I have seen B women's fields around 26 women (max), and it's the same women at most events, which is nice!

For some reason, though, the Verge series here in New England (the only big series really) only has an Elite Women's category - nothing for we "newbies"... Maybe that's something we need to work on...

Velobella is creating a presence here as well, as is Team LunaChix, which is great. I would LOVE to see bigger women's fields!

SheFly

[velogirl]

Interesting that cross has shrunk in NorCal. I started racing in 2003 and it seems that it's gotten bigger, but there aren't any results I can find online anymore except CCCX. Where have the fields shrunk, Allison? As? Bs? Cs? I'd guess As. Were there specific clubs that were active in bringing teams of women to the races or was it mostly individuals.

We had 53 women (finishers) at the first Pilarcitos and 52 this week. I was impressed.

I started racing XC this year, too, and it seems fields are smaller for women than in the past. One of the things I see in both sports is the huge amount of turn-over of beginner women -- many women do one race and never come back. Velo Girls is going to sponsor the beg. women at CCCX (mtb) next year in an attempt to fix this. We're going to give each beg. woman a t-shirt and also lead a course pre-ride and de-brief (beer) post-race.

[madisongrrl]

I started racing XC this year, too, and it seems fields are smaller for women than in the past.

How big are your fields for Beg, Sport & Expert?

[velogirl]

Beg = 10-15
Sport = 10-15
Expert <10

[madisongrrl]

Beg = 10-15
Sport = 10-15
Expert <10

That sucks....

Our WORS series:
Citizen (Beg.) & Sport = 25-40 typical for each category....once in a while we might get 50-60
Expert = 10-15 with an ocassional 20

Many women fall off the wagon after they race sport. They have to upgrade, but don't want to. Then they quit. The jump from Sport to Expert is a big one.

[velogirl]

Yup! And no masters women's categories this year at all, which means the old ladies like me have to race with the 20 year old studs. Makes it all the sweeter when I stomp on em!!!

Of course, then there's Sea Otter, with lots of women and lots of categories -- almost too many categories.

[eteamer]

Interesting that cross has shrunk in NorCal. I started racing in 2003 and it seems that it's gotten bigger, but there aren't any results I can find online anymore except CCCX. Where have the fields shrunk, Allison? As? Bs? Cs? I'd guess As. Were there specific clubs that were active in bringing teams of women to the races or was it mostly individuals.

We had 53 women (finishers) at the first Pilarcitos and 52 this week. I was impressed.

I started racing XC this year, too, and it seems fields are smaller for women than in the past. One of the things I see in both sports is the huge amount of turn-over of beginner women -- many women do one race and never come back. Velo Girls is going to sponsor the beg. women at CCCX (mtb) next year in an attempt to fix this. We're going to give each beg. woman a t-shirt and also lead a course pre-ride and de-brief (beer) post-race.


Actually, I just looked again and the average was between 40 and 50 for most of the Surf City races. I think you are right about the A's. That used to be the biggest category. But this year is better than last. It seems like the turnover from B to A is not happening. Who from last year's B's are racing A's? I think just Katrina B - last year's B dominatrix (and she pretty much has to upgrade or be labelled).

[velogirl]

I think it's intimidating for the prospective As when they've got world-class athletes to compete with. But look at Bev Chaney. She just blows everyone away most races. She races expert or pro mtn bike and definitely belongs in the As. There are some other Bs who I think should be racing As as well. Heck, if I were faster I'd welcome the opportunity to get spanked by you girls. Maybe in a year or two when my fitness is completely back. If Sheila can do it, I can do it.

It's a dangerous trickledown. The Bs who should be As don't upgrade, so the Cs who should be Bs don't upgrade which just makes it tough on the truly beginner Cs. That's why I finally stopped racing Cs this year, even though I wasn't winning races last season. I'm not a beginner and the beginners truly deserve the opportunity to race against each other. And it's frustrating racing with the Cs as well (you gotta get through the crashes and there are always some super-fit genetic freaks who will win their first race).

But I guess until we've got more women there's not a lot we can do to improve it.

Or, until USAC institutes mandatory upgrades. But, as Casey would say, there's no such thing as a mandatory upgrade. And even so, it would take at least 5 wins to get that many points, which for some racers, is all they race in a season.

[eteamer]

Its good to see there is some pride though. The newbie that was dominating the b's early this season is already moved up. Of course, she's on the same team as Dave Gill and I think they might offer encouragement in the right direction...Also, same goes for Rona on Rock Lobster. She moved up too. Next!

[velogirl]

Of course, the other dis-incentive to upgrad mid-season is the HUGE prizelist that some of the promoters are offering for the series. One of my girls won her first two C races. She's a total newbie, but her times would also place her well in the Bs. She didn't totally destroy the field -- the margin to 2nd was less than a minute in each race. But why should she upgrade now when she's in a series?

[spokewench]

You california gals should be glad of the size of the fields now.

Most of the time here in Arizona, (haven't raced yet this year cause cross is hopefully just starting up again), in northern arizona races, we might have 2-3 sometimes 6, sometimes 1 or 2 women show up. So consequently, we don't have ab and c races. The women race in one category unless they want to race against the men and get scored in the A's or B's. Every once in a while a pro lady will show up and race with the boys.

I'm no where near good enough to do that, so I just race in the women's race (sometimes its just me (Cat 4/masters (45-50) road, expert mountain) a Cat 3 young girl, a pro/expert young mountain biker that show for the races so we all race together. I came in second in the state one year to a pro but there was only one other woman at the race (The Conditions Were Atrocious, Freezing with about a foot and a half to two feet of snow!

The southern az races will have maybe 10 women total.

This year, there are going to be 2 cross races up here up north and the ladies (desert foxes) who put on the cyclocross down south in Tucson and Phoenix are having trouble with parks & rec so their race series in doubtful.

Be glad that you have good racing and you have field sizes like you do. Sure wish we did.

[velogirl]

We're thankful, but it's also taken a lot of work (and funding) to get where we are today. Allison's been around the scene longer than me so I bet she can share more insight.

It's a viscious cycle. You don't have a separate race because you don't have enough women. And you can't get more women unless you can have a separate race.

I've been recruiting and developing racers (road, mtn, cross) since 2002. In that time, I've gotten almost 150 new women out there racing (road) and another 30 or so (mtn and cross). It's taken a big investment of my time and also finding sponsorship to incent them.

Our clinics have been one of the best ways to get more women racing. We've also provided all the prizes for one of the series so the promoter would add a C women cateogory. Velo Bella did the same with the Surf City series (and now they're promoting it themselves). I still donate prizes to a number of races.

I think the women's road programs we have here help the cross scene too. We have a women's point series for CAT3 and CAT4 racers on the road. This recognizes the beginner women, many who then race cross as well. There are half a dozen very strong women's teams (many of them spin-offs of Velo Girls or Velo Bella) who are encouraging women to race. And there are some great co-ed teams that have strong women's teams too!

You also need a cheerleader, someone willing to encourage women to get out there and try it, someone willing to bug the promoters, someone willing to keep talking about it to anyone who will listen, someone willing to stand up to the guys when they want to cut our categories or tell us how to run women's racing.

Luck is one thing. But it's a lot of dedication and hard work too! I guess we're lucky that we've got women like me, Sabine Dukes, Sarah Lightfoot, Cathy Wong, Phyllis Orlich, Brooke Kuhn, and others who are focused on getting more women on their bikes and racing!

[spokewench]

I'm constantly trying to get women into cycling and racing here in northern rural arizona. It seems to be a lot harder when you have a smaller pool of women to draw from. I lead women's rides, offer to give clinics, etc. and there are a couple of other ladies (pro mtn bikers) that lead rides as well.

More than half the time, we only get a couple of people to show for those rides so it gets kind of frustrating. You feel like you are wasting your time! I keep trying tho. I usually try to target the new women riders and I've been pretty successful with getting ladies to ride road bikes, but not too successful in getting ladies to start racing.

There is mostly a big age discrepancy between me (46) and most of the ladies that seem to be, or might be interested in racing in this town. This is a college town and most of the ladies that have some interest in racing are much younger. Sometimes I think since I'm not the greatest climber in the world and they can beat me up hill that I don't have anything to offer them. But, they say they are interested in learning, but they never seem to come out when the opportunity is there for them???

A couple of years ago, I talked the guys who were running one of our clubs into doing a great women's team - same deals that the Cat 3 men were getting from the club PLUS, but I could only get a few older ladies (my age and older) to commit to it and then that fell thru cause the guys who agreed to do that women's team dropped out of the running of the club and I and a couple other people started running the club, putting on a stage race, and 3 other races, etc. so my time to train was nothing and I really never got fit enough that year. I think if I had been able to I could have gotten the 4 other older ladies to get motivated but without me there, they just didn't come thru. The club has a ladies team now, but it is all based out of Tucson down south (we are a regional club, mostly Tucson people and Flag people). Still no one from Flag that wants to commit to the expense and training it takes to race like that!

I really have decided not to road race anymore - just don't have any interest in it anymore so it is even harder to encourage ladies to race when they don't see you out there doing it anymore. Oh, well, I keep trying:)

[velogirl]

Not actually racing yourself shouldn't stop you from developing women racers (if that's what you want to do). I actually find that the times I'm not racing myself I can dedicate more time to the club & team and other projects than when I'm racing myself.

But, I understand your hesitancies. When I became a coach in 2001, I had never raced myself. All the local coaches told me I would fail trying to start a race team. I proved them wrong, obviously. My secret was that I didn't try to market our team to experienced racers. Instead, I recruited women who may not have considered racing before.

Around the same time I started the team, I also got quite sick. I lost my health and fitness over a three year period. I gained weight and lost my climbing ability. I had many days that I couldn't even get out of bed, nevermind hop on the bike. This definitely affected my self-esteem and my feeling that I could coach others. But I stuck to it and had some good support systems (some of my racers and clints who believed in me) and was able to produce some CAT1 and CAT2 women -- women who had never even thought of racing a bike before they met me.

While I've regained much of my fitness, I've also gotten older. I may never be a kick-butt racer. But I'm an enthusiastic advocate for women's racing and I've gained the respect of the local racers and promoters (men and women) because I've been able to develop and retain so many new women racers.

With women, I've learned that we need to recruit in non-traditional ways. Look at the club rider, the triathlete, the spin class devotee, the marathoner. If someone has some fitness and a lot of desire and a competitive gene in her body, you can teach her to ride/race her bike.

One of your biggest advocates will be a local bike shop -- they see women riders all the time. Get involved with the shop -- hold clinics, lead rides, get them recruiting women for you. You'll give back to the shop by bringing women into them and keeping them on the bike. And they'll be able to recommend you to every woman who walks in the door.

And don't give up! It's tough work and it's frustrating when you don't see results right away, but if you stick with it, the rewards are HUGE. I firmly believe that by contributing to success with these women in cycling, we're improving every aspect of their lives.

And, of course, I can live vicariously through the women I develop. I may never win a national championship but I developed a racer who did. I may never upgrade to CAT1, but I've developed lots of racers who have. I may never even win a local race, but I've helped other women win plenty of races. And that makes me a winner, too!

[velogirl]

Wow, I didn't mean to shut everybody up!!! I guess this thread has reached it's useful life. It was fun.

So, who's racing this weekend?

[spokewench]

I've been off the bike about a month (for several reasons, a hurt hand, and just disinterest) so I'm not sure I want to go get my butt kicked (even if I might be the only woman to show up) I have to ride with the Men B's.

I also have friends that want to go for a hike and breakfast which is luring me a little more since I've been off the bike so long. So, we shall see.

[eteamer]

Marin on Saturday and Velo Bella on Sunday (hangover permitting). Marin hasn't had a cross race in eons, so hopefully lots of people will show up. Hint Hint...

[velogirl]

I'll be there, Allison!

Do you have a costume for Sunday yet?

[madisongrrl]

I'll be racing this weekend....maybe in a Halloween costume or maybe not...

http://www.wicycling.org/CycloCross/flyers06/trocaderocross20006.pdf

[SheFly]

I'll be racing on Sunday in MA also. Going to meet up with ChainsofLove!

Good luck to everyone racing this weekend, and don't forget the race reports!

SheFly

[eteamer]

Yep, but I am not sure how well cross and a tube top mix....

A couple of years ago at one of Dave Gill's cx races Stella, Hillary, Kathleen and I did the relay race in bikinis. It was a nice day thank god, and it felt oddly good.

[velogirl]

You guys were hot! So gutsy. I've been thinking pink body paint or liquid latex, but I've got too many jiggles to pull that off. or a bikini for that matter.