Steering with your Hips

[telegirl]

So.....whether or not this should go under Adventures, Mountain Biking, New Riders, or Blonde Moments, I'm not sure. But since the original post that lead to my Adventuresome Blonde Moment on My Mountain Bike was posted in New Riders, I thought it should go here.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=10723

Sooo, on Saturday, it was the perfect New England Fall day. Crisp, but not frozen, with clear blue sky and still some foliage to supplement the eye candy. I was doing one of my i-pod rides, out my back door, on some of BikeHubby's tight and windy single track. I read and re-read Velogirl, spokewench and GLC1968's comments and discussions about cornering, steering, and counter steering and felt like I could really relate to "steering with your hips". And it was on this day that I decided that I would really concentrate on that technique.

After practicing in our driveway a bit, I set off.

Turn left, hips go this way, turn right, hips go that way, over whoops, over roots, turn with hips and turn with hips. Had me a nice rhythm going there, swinging in and out of the turns, feelin' the love.

Then went to some narly downhill. The kind of downhill that makes one pause and wonder what one is doing....off cambre, rocks, roots and tight switchbacks.....The one downhill that I end up walking part of, dabbing most off, and wishing that it would just go away.

So off I go! It starts off easy enough: Hips and turn and hips and turn, but then I picked up speed. No problem......hipsandturnandhipsandturn....just a little faster, right? Apparently, although GLC was concentrating on turning without using her handlebars, that doesn't work so well for me....Maybe I just don't have the hip moves, but I'm guessing that you DO need some handlebar work to corner very tightly, since I ended up going right off the edge of the switchback and between two trees, which did stop my bike from going any further, but which knocked me off my bike and down the embankment.

Note to self: Might want to try using handlebars in conjunction with hips next time.

[lph]

Hah! Very well written.

Hope you're ok...

[GLC1968]

OMG! I'm sorry...I admit to feeling partially responsible for your spill! :( :o

Two things that came to mind reading your post...one was that velogirl mentioned that you need more handlebar on a turn when doing switchbacks at slow speeds. My guess is that at higher speeds, you need both handlebar and hips in perfect union?

The other thing I thought while reading was OMG...I'm on a road...not a trail!!! My conditions are a a bit tamer than yours!

I hope you aren't hurt and that you'll be out there giving it a shot again soon!
:)

[telegirl]

:D It's all good!... It seems like it was more a Blonde Moment than anything else - I was so into "steering with my hips" that I just totally blocked out everything else! It was just so funny to be sitting there thinking "wow, I need to work on my hip movements" and then thinking "hmmmm, I wonder if I should have steered more with the handlebars??" :eek:

I'm thinking I am going to practice on some tamer downhills and try to get those handlebars and hips a goin'. Salsa on Bike- I'd like to see them put THAT on Dances with the Stars (well, maybe not Jerry Springer in bike shorts :eek: )!

[Squeaky]

I love this tip! Since I read it on the other post, I've been practicing it and my turns (especially left) have improved immensely... weeeee :D

[han-grrl]

When it comes to turns or any mtb riding, or any bike riding, you always want to look where you want to go. as soon as you turn your head you will naturally start pointing the rest of your body where it needs to be. also...being lose on the bike will let the body follow more easily.

during the 24 hour race earlier this year (that one i did on a team), i was coming into a a switch back, descent...there was a tree on the side, and i guess some people started to shoot for the tree...i was watching the path to the tree and realized that i actually had to turn BEFORE the tree (and also didn't realize how steep it was), so at the very last second i threw my inside knee (it was a left turn, so the left knee) and hip to the side, and steered it left. meanwhile i hear this "oh crap" behind me. the guy behind saw the tree as well, but was following too close behind to change directions and well..didn't make the turn...i said "you were too close weren't you" he gives me this sad "yeah"...i said "my husband might be jealous if he saw you that close to me"... ;)

[rocknrollgirl]

I was just practicing this on my new bike this past w/e. I think I had the same mantra going on....hipsthiswaybikethatway hipsthiswaybikethatway...
DH was behind me with a mantra of his own whatinhell whatinhell

LOL!!!!!


Ruth

[telegirl]

THANK GOODNESS no one was with me, Ruth! Because I was actually singing my mantra LOUDLY to whatever happened to be playing on my ipod.....

I tried again last night....and it seems to be making me better at rolling when I fall, but not at cornering! :D

K.

[velogirl]

Okay, lots of excitement about the concept of steering with your hips, but I think there's also a bit of confusion, too. Let me try to clarify.

Steering-- Steering refers to minute changes in direction. Steering is not cornering. Steering also includes the ability to ride in a straight line. When I refer to steering with your hips, this means that the bike will move/point in the direction your hips are facing. This assumes that you don't correct this motion with your hands. So, if I drop my hips and point them to the right, the bike will naturally move to the right. When I point my hips in a given direction, my core and shoulders will also point in that direction. Ideally, your head also points in that direction (also referred to as looking where you want to go). The focus, however, is your hips. If you point your hips, your body will follow. If you point your head, your body might follow. Tricky, eh? when I teach this skill, I ask riders to let their pelvis roll off the side of the saddle. I also ask them to unclip their feet so they don't try to counter-steer (see below). Your feet should be completely weightless when you do this.

Cornering -- to corner the bike, we use a skill called counter-steering. Counter-steering is a complex skill, but the corner-stone of being able to corner and descend with confidence. It looks something like this:


Assuming a right turn, I place my left (outside) leg down and stand on it. This weights the leg and allows the bottom bracket to flex. I'm still seated on the saddle, but you might see a little daylight between my right glute and the saddle. I'm also able to steer by pushing the nose of the saddle with my left (outside) thigh.
My hands are in the drops and I weight or push the right (inside) hand. You can also unweight or pull the left (outside) hand.
I allow the bike to lean to the right (inside). This increases the contact patch on the tires which makes the bike more stable. The more you lean, the faster and tighter you can turn. The faster you are turning, the more you need to lean.
I lean my body to the left (outside), countering my weight on the bike so I'm still over the bottom bracket. If you don't lean to the outside, the bike could slide out from under you.
I lead with my right (inside) knee. There are actually two schools of thought here. I teach to lead with your knee because this opens up your hips (ie pointing with your hips as in steering). Old school coaches will teach that you grip your right knee against the top tube. This second method just doesn't make sense to me.
I look around the turn with my entire head (not just my eyes). I refer to this as looking with my chin or leading with my chin. The more you look, the tighter the bike wil turn.

Differences Between Road and Mtn -- The skills we use are essentially the same, however there are some subtle differences between road and mountain, mostly because the terrain is different. For example, in mtn biking, you might make a very tight turn (switchback) that you would probably never do on the road. Most of the differences are really defined by the speed at which you ride (see next bullet).

Speed -- The speed at which we perform a turn really determines how we do it. At slow speeds, we definitely use the bar to assist with steering and cornering. This is because the bike doesn't have enough momentum to corner without using the bar. This means that most times when we're climbing on the mountain bike or the road bike, we use the bar to control direction. When we're descending quickly on the mountain bike or the road bike we would steer with our hips (minute changes in direction) or counter-steer (corners). If we're descending more slowly (ie tight, technical switchbacks) we need to use our hands/head much more than for fast descents.

[telegirl]

Does this mean no Salsa Bike Dancing, Velo? :D

Yes, I should use "cornering" and not steering - you are right that there is a definite difference. Again, I think that what I need is a coach WITH me, since I have read everything and just can't seem to master the concept of cornering downhill on tight switchbacks- I can practice what you are saying, but it just doesn't seem to stick. The hip mantra, however, seemed to help me quite a bit on the flatter, but more windy trails....

You really ARE a teacher, aren't you Velo? Who else would be able to put up with this ineptness with such patience???

[Mimosa]

If you got the technique then in my opinion it is just a matter of 'doing it' at high speed (but a flat road). For example, this year I did one real road race at a local club (after 10 years no racing). I was just passing by during training when the girls doing the ride almost pulled me onto the course to join in (they only had 10 competing so every girl was one extra). When the pack hit the first corner I almost wet my pants because we were going so fast and I really pulled the brakes way to hard. Still I knew I could do better and the next corner I eased up on the brakes and I made it through without running of the course :confused: The bike just stuck to the tarmac though my belly did some flip-flops. Gradually through the course I got some confidence back but still fear hit when we came up a curve at a really high speed. But that's more of another problem, one of the reasons I stopped al those years ago is that I hit the tarmac really hard a couple of times in 1 season and I really grew (and still have) a fear for going to fast into the corner (I still carry the scars to prove that).

What I am trying to say, you can't expect that fast downhill turns are just a matter of technique (sure that's where it all starts). Part of it is also between the ears, the more confident you are that the bike will stick to the tarmac, the more you will lean into the curve with your body and the more you will grow into it. It takes time and a lot of trying before you grow into it.

On a side note, when doing tonights training I tried to see how I go into the curve (which technique do I use). And I came to the conclusion that indeed it must have something to do with weight distribution. I think 'go left' and my body shifts (upperbody leans over to the left) and the bike goes that way. And allways look where you are going, look for the point where you want to end, that 'automatically' balances out the weight distribution.

[velogirl]

Does this mean no Salsa Bike Dancing, Velo? :D

Funny you mention dancing. When I teach this, the first thing I do is have everyone get off the bike and stand next to it with on hand on the saddle and one on the bar. Then we do this sweeping hip grind (can't describe it) from side to side. When I teach the women, they all get it immediately. When I teach the men, they kinda nod from side to side -- no swivel in the hips with them!

BTW, the two exercises I use to teach steering I call the Bump & Grind and Hula Hips.

[Crankin]

No wonder I can't corner a right turn on a descent... you have to be in the drops?????? It's a miracle if I can get in the drops on a straight road, going a moderate speed, when no cars are around. I am hopeless. I have the leg down thing, trying to look with my head, which is not natural for me. I am not sure how I can lean my bike right if I am leaning left.
Oy. After 6 years I am still a newbie.

[velogirl]

No wonder I can't corner a right turn on a descent... you have to be in the drops?????? It's a miracle if I can get in the drops on a straight road, going a moderate speed, when no cars are around. I am hopeless. I have the leg down thing, trying to look with my head, which is not natural for me. I am not sure how I can lean my bike right if I am leaning left.
Oy. After 6 years I am still a newbie.

For leaning, I always visualize pushing my bike in one direction and pulling my body in the other. You're actually pushing the bike away from you.

Now, the drops. If you don't feel comfortable in the drops, it might be bike fit. But if your fit is good, you should start practicing. Take 5 minutes each ride and get into the drops (on a flat road). Start increasing that time incrementally.

Regarding looking, try this sometime. When you're in your car, try looking at the road right in front of your hood. See how uncomfortable that feels? We look down the road when we drive. We should do the same thing when we ride. Don't look down at the front of the bike. Your bike will roll over 99% of what might be in the road (stones, cracks, holes).

[DebW]

VG, can you clarify some things.

For steering with hips, are you talking about rotating the hips in the vertical or horizontal plane?

I googled countersteering a couple weeks ago and mostly found stuff about motorcycles, describing how, for a right turn, the handlebars need to go left to initiate the lean of the turn. Is that true for a bike as well, and at what point in your description do the handlebars move, however slightly?

[velogirl]

For steering, the hips move in a pendulum motion -- I think that would be considered both vertical and horizontal.

When you push the inside bar, it actually turns the bar/wheel to the outside (just like the descriptions you see for motorcycling). That's the counter part of counter-steering. So, if you're turning right, you push the right hand and the wheel actually turns to the left just a tiny bit.

[aicabsolut]

Yeah that's right.. While I'm not great in practice cornering fast yet, I understand the physics (helps to have dated a guy who raced motorcycles). Though on a horse, turning right means leaning left ..this is what messes me up.

If you turn the wheel right on a right hand turn, then you're going to skid and wiggle and hydroplane around because turning the wheel right keeps the bottom of the tire more on the road. Pushing a little on the right bar puts more weight on the inside of the tire, you roll to the edge of it, and that plus the lean is how you turn rather than steering that you have to do at a slow pace (when you're slow, you don't have enough speed to keep you upright in a lean and you can't create enough friction with the tire to keep it from sliding out from under you). That's why motorcycle tires on racing bikes have tread that wraps around the sides pretty far. The faster you go, the more you have to lean to make the turn. And yeah, when sitting on anything it helps to watch your line.

Now just to get the execution down..

[DebW]

For steering, the hips move in a pendulum motion -- I think that would be considered both vertical and horizontal.


Where's the fulcrum of the pendulum?

[Mimosa]

But if your fit is good, you should start practicing. Take 5 minutes each ride and get into the drops (on a flat road).
That's why my trainer allways used to say "Get your hands of the top and put then in the drops. Otherwise your body will never learn to ride like that." :D

Tonight it was wet (and thus a bit slippery on those narrow tires) outside so I rode most of the way with my hands in the drops because then you are more stable and have more control over the bike.

[Crankin]

Velo, I just spent a good deal of $ of a custom Kuota bike. I have 38 cm bars (flat on the top) and I don't know if I need anything smaller. I do try to ride in the drops for a little while on every ride; but I feel weird, like I am lying down almost. I can't explain it. I can barely take my hands off of the bar to drop down, it just plain scares me. I am comfortable when I get there and can easily change gears, but I feel a like my ability to really squeeze the brakes isn't as good. I can reach them, but it's not the same as in the other positions. It's more that the whole physics of handling the bike feels totally different to me. If I am going straight, on a flat, it's fine. But the thought of cornering on a steep descent in that position really scares me because everytime I descend I feel like my bike is sliding out from under me. Now I know why. I actually have been working on this for the last couple of weeks, but riding time is now cut down a lot.
I will keep practicing!

Robyn

[velogirl]

Where's the fulcrum of the pendulum?

belly button

[aicabsolut]

Velo, I just spent a good deal of $ of a custom Kuota bike. I have 38 cm bars (flat on the top) and I don't know if I need anything smaller. I do try to ride in the drops for a little while on every ride; but I feel weird, like I am lying down almost. I can't explain it. I can barely take my hands off of the bar to drop down, it just plain scares me. I am comfortable when I get there and can easily change gears, but I feel a like my ability to really squeeze the brakes isn't as good. I can reach them, but it's not the same as in the other positions.

Robyn

Is your seat in the right position?
You can get little wedges that fit in the hoods, bringing the brake levers in some, so that shorter fingers can reach them better from the drops. I assume your bars are WSD bars? They usually have a shorter reach to the brakes from all positions. So if you don't, start with those first. Reach of the brakes from the drops doesn't have to do with the 38cm width of the bars but how the hoods are positions and the geometry of the drops. I got some 38 WSD bars put on yesterday (was riding in standard 42s that came on the bike--I could shift from the drops but not brake. It's the different geometry overall versus the narrowness that made the difference that way). If you've got women's bars, go with the wedges.

If you're too squished in and your seat is in the right position, then maybe you can flip your stem over to get the bars up higher so you aren't lying on your knees in the drops.

[Mimosa]

... but I feel a like my ability to really squeeze the brakes isn't as good. I can reach them, but it's not the same as in the other positions.
Do you have short reach break handles (http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycle/products/component.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441774695&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302040103&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395181419&bmUID=1161237311598)? If not, why did your LBS tell you about them? A lot of women suffer from the same 'reach' problem en decided to change to those break handles.

But then every new bike feels different, just don't worry to much and try to make as much miles to feel comfortable.

[Crankin]

My bars are not wsd. When I got fitted (very long, computer assisted), I discovered that my arms are not that short for a short person. But, now I am pissed. My bars were very expensive and I really don't want to spend more. But, I am going to go back to the shop and talk to the owner. He listens. Perhaps I can try the shims first, because the bars I have cost about $300. Will swing by there tomorrow....

[velogirl]

Velo, I just spent a good deal of $ of a custom Kuota bike. I have 38 cm bars (flat on the top) and I don't know if I need anything smaller. I do try to ride in the drops for a little while on every ride; but I feel weird, like I am lying down almost. I can't explain it. I can barely take my hands off of the bar to drop down, it just plain scares me. I am comfortable when I get there and can easily change gears, but I feel a like my ability to really squeeze the brakes isn't as good. I can reach them, but it's not the same as in the other positions. It's more that the whole physics of handling the bike feels totally different to me. If I am going straight, on a flat, it's fine. But the thought of cornering on a steep descent in that position really scares me because everytime I descend I feel like my bike is sliding out from under me. Now I know why. I actually have been working on this for the last couple of weeks, but riding time is now cut down a lot.
I will keep practicing!

Robyn


Robyn, I don't think this is a fit issue and I don't think you need a new bar. I think it's an issue of becoming more comfortable riding in different positions. You're become very comfortable doing it "your way," so now it doesn't feel correct doing it any other way.

It also sounds to me like you need to improve your core strength so you feel more confident moving from position to position on the bike.

How long have you been riding a road bike, Robyn?

When I first started riding, I remember a friend (who's a great cyclist) telling me I should descend in the drops. I thought he was crazy! I didn't care if every other cyclist in the world descended in the drops -- I was different and I wasn't even willing to try it. Of course, over time, I realized he was correct and I tried it, and once I became more comfortable with the position I realized he was correct.

[Crankin]

You are right, Velo. It's me. I've been riding a road bike about 5 years; I did my first year on a mtb with slicks. I am very comfortable doing things the wrong way! I know it's wrong, but I am still getting over a life of being uncoordinated, although in my recent, adult life I have been very athletic. I do have documented horrible depth perception, but if i learned to drive, I can do this. Fear is also a big part. Right now I am often stuck riding with people slower than me because although I would definitely say I'm an intermediate rider, my average speed would be a lot faster if i was descending faster. I can climb and I can maintain 16-18 on flats, which may not be a lot to racers, but I am just a fit old lady trying to stay fit. I don't want to be a fraidy newbie forever, but I know with each passing year (I'm about to turn 53) it will get harder. I only wish I had started riding sooner.

You might be right about the core thing. Generally, that has been a strength, but I have let all that lapse during the riding season, i.e. no Pilates, sit ups, weights. I am trying to get back now.
Thanks for the advice.

[aicabsolut]

My bars are not wsd. When I got fitted (very long, computer assisted), I discovered that my arms are not that short for a short person. But, now I am pissed. My bars were very expensive and I really don't want to spend more. But, I am going to go back to the shop and talk to the owner. He listens. Perhaps I can try the shims first, because the bars I have cost about $300. Will swing by there tomorrow....

Would your shop do a swap out and give you credit?
Aside from descending comfortably in the drops (your other issue), the ability to reach the brakes without choking up more or less on the drops is an issue with your hand size not arm length. Women's bars somewhat solve this problem. Shorter stems help shorter arms. The cat 1 female racer who was helping me with my new bars said it's always best to try go get the geometry right with the base component rather than jerry rigging things with shims if that can be avoided. But if you really love your bars and if your reach at the hoods and all is fine, then maybe shims would work. Also, is there a way to drop the hoods lower on the bar (some bars have little markers along the front curved part indicating different possible positions for the hoods). If you could still reach at the top, then lowering the hoods some could bring the levers in closer to the drops by changing the angle.

I hope you can make them work! At least having the ability to brake on a decent in the drops will hopefully help you build confidence at doing those decents. :) That's something I'm working on too.

[DebW]

You are right, Velo. It's me. I've been riding a road bike about 5 years; I did my first year on a mtb with slicks. I am very comfortable doing things the wrong way! I know it's wrong, but I am still getting over a life of being uncoordinated, although in my recent, adult life I have been very athletic. I do have documented horrible depth perception, but if i learned to drive, I can do this. Fear is also a big part.

You might be right about the core thing. Generally, that has been a strength, but I have let all that lapse during the riding season, i.e. no Pilates, sit ups, weights. I am trying to get back now.

Robyn, a few suggestions for getting used to the drops. I've noticed that when I switch from hoods to drops or vice versa, my upper body remains motionless and only my arms move. That's because my elbows are generally quite bent when riding on the hoods, or they bend more before I move to the drops. If you ride with almost straight arms, try bending your arms more on the hoods until your body is comfortable in the position it would be if in the drops. Your body should ride comfortably without much weight on your arms - the balance should be between your butt and your feet. If you don't feel that balance, maybe your saddle needs to move further behind your pedals. You can practice on a trainer over the winter, riding a highish gear and unweighting your arms, using your core muscles and legs to balance your upper body. You could also practice a tucked coasting position on the trainer for a minute or two at a time - hands in drops, crank horizontal, upper body very low, elbows in, chin near the bars, weight mostly on feet and hands and shifted a bit forward.