View Full Version : Hills -- is it true?
Is there really a "technique" for going up hills? Besides any way that gets you there? Tater said her "technique isn't very good" when she wrote about going up hills in another thread, and that made me wonder if there are some nifty tips and tricks I could learn to help?
I was reading, I think it was Velogirl's post about teaching, and how turning is done with hips rather than hands, and I hadn't really noticed that even though I know that I don't turn the front end all that much when I turn the bike, so I paid attention, and played seeing how shifting my body affected my direction today while we were out riding. COOL!
So, what are the tricks I can learn and practice while I'm putting in all that saddle time that will make hill climbing work better?
oops, a girl oughta sign her posts, eh?
Karen in Boise
There are some things you can do to be a better climber
1. Learn to pedal in circles - pull up on the pedals as well as pushing down. This does require either toe clips or clipless pedals obviously. And learn to spin - to get a smooth pedal stroke you pretty much have to be spinning. Practicing on a stationary trainer will help strengthen your leg muscles and make this easier.
2. Learn to climb standing. Now, some people like to climb consistently in the standing position, while others just use it to rest their legs or when extra power is needed. You'll have to figure out which style you prefer. Standing climbing uses more cardio-vascular capacity, seated climbing uses more leg muscle. To climb standing you'll want your hands on the tops of the bars - at least on the hoods (I've heard unless you are Italian and famous pro don't climb in the drops :rolleyes: ), stand up on the pedals pulling the bike forward as you stand with your hands and feet- this is to prevent your bike from shooting backwards into anyone who is following you. Gently rock your bike back and forth with your pedal strokes - don't force this - it should be a natural movement rather than a forceful rocking back and forth by using your arms. Standing climbs will be difficult to impossible if your bike is too big for you.
3. Go at your own pace and don't go out too fast on long climbs. You'll burn out fast if you try to follow someone who has a quicker pace than you.
This is pretty basice, but I hope it gives you some ideas.
kelownagirl
10-05-2006, 06:09 PM
I liked this article in Bicycling Magazine.
http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6610,s1-4-41-1304-1,00.html
How to Conquer Long Climbs
The smarter way to get to the top: seated climbing.
By Alan Coté
Standing up and honking on the pedals can give you a feeling of power and mastery--like you're wrestling the climb down to size with your whole body. But most of the time, it's dumb. The smarter way to get to the top: seated climbing. It burns fewer calories and saves energy for the long haul. When longtime pro and mountain goat Scott Moninger climbs those long, hard hills, he uses five techniques to get to the top stronger and faster. His climbing savvy helped him win the race up Colorado's 14,264-foot-high Mt. Evans three of the last four years and take the top spot in the 2000 Saturn Cycling Classic--which includes more than 14,000 feet of vertical ascent.
"Seated climbing is more efficient over longer climbs," says Moninger. "You use more muscles when you're out of the saddle, which raises your heart rate by 8 percent--and keeping your heart rate lower is important on longer climbs." Standing requires more energy because you work your legs, arms and back, and you use 12% more oxygen and energy.
For Moninger, a long climb is a mile or more, and making the decision to sit or stand depends on the steepness. He'll spend about half the time sitting while climbing the infamous Manayunk Wall's 17% grade in Philadelphia's U.S. Pro Championships. Here are Moninger's five tips for successful climbing:
KEEP YOUR BODY STILL. Don't rock your upper body; it wastes energy. Don't let your shoulders hunch forward; instead, keep them back and down to open your chest for breathing. A quick test to tell if you're hunching forward: If your elbows are sticking out so far you can't lightly brush your knees on the upstroke, you're hunched and robbing yourself of oxygen. To keep your upper body from swaying as you pedal, pull lightly on the bar opposite the leg that's on a downstroke.
2. SCOOT YOUR BUTT BACK. Sliding back on the seat gives you more leverage on the pedals. This position opens the angle between your femurs and upper body, which lets you better use the powerful psoas muscles in the back of your thighs and lower back, especially when you pull up. For more power over shorter rises, slide to the front third of the saddle.
When your weight is more forward, you're using the powerful muscles of your buttocks and lower back. You also won't feel like you're dragging so much weight.
3. RELAX THOSE HANDS. Put your hands on the hoods or the bar top, so you can drop your elbows and relax your upper body. Don't climb in the drops--hunching down pinches off the lower part of the lungs and restricts the diaphragm. To stay relaxed, Moninger climbs with his hands on the brake hoods. If you prefer riding with your hands on the top, rest your thumbs on the top of the bar to avoid squeezing and tensing up. To keep your grip loose, grab the bar with your fingers spread out, then put your weight on the bar and wrap your fingers around loosely.
4. STAY ABOVE 60 RPM. There's lots of talk about ramping up cadence because Lance spins on climbs at about 90-100 rpm. But Moninger rides a constant cadence of about 85-95 rpm when climbing in the saddle. This cadence, which is about 10 rpm higher than that of many other pros, works for him because he's a smaller rider. Bigger, more powerful riders tend to mash bigger gears. A cadence of about 60-70 rpm is as low as you should go in the saddle. Go slower and you lose your fluid pedal stroke, says Moninger.
5. SHIFT EASY THEN HARD. Plan ahead on climbs. Start in easier gears at the bottom and shift into harder gears as you ascend. Then, as the climb gets tougher, you won't be left grasping for easier ones. That's the best way to get over the summit in the saddle, but don't let ego limit your cog choice. Moninger will click into the 27-tooth cog if that's what the course demands. "I needed at least a 27-tooth cog for the San Francisco Gran Prix, especially with Filmore Street's 18-percent grade," he says.
2 TIMES IT'S SMARTER TO STAND
* When you need a break. If you're near your limit, spinning fast and riding in the saddle taxes your heart and lungs. Standing lets you stretch your muscles and open your lungs.
* Near the crest. Spinning in the saddle for the bulk of the climb, then shifting to a bigger gear and standing up to blast over the top is a classic technique for dropping other riders.
HOW TO PEDAL ON SEATED CLIMBS
A smooth seated stroke will allow you to apply more force more evenly and efficiently. Concentrate on pushing each pedal forward, then pulling it back, with these four steps:
1. When your crankarm is at the 11 o'clock position, push it like you're walking down a set of long, shallow steps. Think forward and down.
2. Keep the same amount of pressure until the crankarm reaches the 5 o'clock position.
3. As the pedal passes through the 5 o'clock position, pull back and up on the pedal as if you're scraping mud off the sole of your shoe.
4. Keep pulling up with the same amount of force until you're back to the 11 o'clock position.
Veronica
10-05-2006, 06:13 PM
To climb standing you'll want your hands on the tops of the bars - at least on the hoods (I've heard unless you are Italian and famous pro don't climb in the drops :rolleyes: ),
I'm not Italian and I'm not a pro... but I do my standing climbs in the drops. :p
V.
snapdragen
10-05-2006, 06:17 PM
I'm not Italian and I'm not a pro... but I do my standing climbs in the drops. :p
V.
Yabbut you're Princess Zippy the Amazing!:D
I'm not Italian and I'm not a pro... but I do my standing climbs in the drops. :p
V.
The comment was accompanied by a photo of Pantani doing exactly that. But seriously, climbing on the tops is recommended because most people find that it expands their chest a bit and makes it easier to breathe and you need as much oxygen as you can get when you are climbing. Then again the best rule is to know when to break the rules and everyone develops their own climbing style. I'm a mostly seated climber myself.
kelownagirl
10-05-2006, 08:51 PM
And I like climbing seated (because I'm not strong enough to stand), AND in the drops. Probably sounds dumb but it helps me focus and feel strength in my legs. I hadn't thought about what it might be doing to my breathing. I will try being more upright next time and see if that makes a difference...
barb
Eden -- your third point, stick to your own pace, that's easy: there's just no way to keep up with anyone. I'm doing well to keep up with myself!
No standing on hoods or in drops -- only got "flat" bars, since this is one of those hybrid-y comfort beast bikes. I will play more with standing now and then, which I haven't done much yet. Of course, there's a reason for not standing on this bike: my bike has a suspension fork, and when I do stand, even if I don't think I'm leaning too hard on the bars and trying to keep myself mostly on my pedals, that fork is squishing and flexing, or whatever it is that it's designed to do. It feels like I'm smooshing the front wheel into the ground -- almost like I'm losing forward momentum? Does this description make sense? It's definitely an icky, spongy sensation. Is this another good reason to need that road bike with a "normal" fork that I've been wanting?
If I really want to get good at hill climbing, rather than just barely surviving, gasping my way up the hill, is this bike the wrong tool? I'm about ready to get out the old bike (an old Trek 720), lube up the chain, air up the tires, dust off the cobwebs, and see what happens. It's got a "rigid" frame and I can't help but think it would be a good experiment!
The article -- relaxed hands -- I work hard at that, I think I'm getting pretty good at that part. Open chest -- I wonder -- I can hardly wait to focus on that and make sure I'm doing it! Cadence, I don't know about keeping that high -- what a struggle! Or, maybe I'm doing it just fine, and don't realize it? Butt back -- I've noticed the power that gives me on the flats, I'll have to work on using it on hills too!
Lots of great information -- now I wish I could get out on the road again before Sunday! (meanwhile, I'll eagerly read any other ideas people have to offer!!!!!)
Karen in Boise
RoadRaven
10-05-2006, 09:18 PM
Well I have nothing more to add to this thread... so what better reason to say something anyway??
:p
Just endorsing the take it steady, get in a rythym and work your way up... don't get phased by others, don't get phased by your own thoughts.
Know that the hill will end.
To get stronger on hills, it is suggested you stay seated in a gear you can just get on top of.
It toook me a looooooong time to be able to stand for longer than a few seconds... my HR would rocket.
However, as I have got fitter, I can maintain standing for 300-400 metres at times (depending on the grade of course...)
I use standing when I get to the top of the climb so I don't have to drop into a lower gear... a useful strategy when racing, or trying to keep from getting dropped as the rest of the bunch crests a hill and you have dropped off the tail a tad...
keep doing hills - you'll get there :)
HipGnosis6
10-05-2006, 09:40 PM
It's hilly here.... and I often need to distract myself from the rest of the hill. I'll pick a visual target a little ways up hill and tell myself "if I can make it past that telephone pole/intersection/fire plug/art car, I can be proud even if I have to walk the rest of the way up!" and then the very instant I pass it, I pick a new target.
I also like to sing or loudly recite poetry as I climb. Short and repetitive pieces work best for me, so please if you ever ride with me and catch me shouting "C is for cookie, that's good enough for me!" as I straggle up a hill - that's normal, I haven't slipped a cog. Or well.... any more cogs.
My bike doesn't have them, but I hear bar ends are great for climbing for us with the flat bar bikes.
Something I underestimated is shifting skills and momentum. This works for rollers, mostly. I spent a month on Vancouver Island this summer and it was ALL rolling hills, everywhere, and pretty serious hills in many cases. I have improved my shifting a lot, to a point where I can now sometimes pass my Dear Partner - a MUCH stronger cyclist than me, especially on hills - on an uphill with no hopes for him to catch up. I'm pretty sure that fitness is not the factor here, but strategy.
I thought he was just being nice in letting me pass him and not re-passing me immediately! But when he told me he actually couldn't catch up I started observing what I was doing on those specific occasions. I realized that, on the end of a given downhill, I'd shift up (or increase cadence if no bigger gears were available) and take all the speed I could find. Then I would start the climb and as soon as I started feeling resistance I'd shift down pretty quickly, maintaining a very high cadence.
In other words, it means no real resting on the downhill. But a really fun time on the uphill!!!!
In any case, practice is the key. There is no other way to get good on hills. Sometimes slow, sometimes fast, in different gears, trying different tricks, sitting, standing, singing (it helps). Smiling at the hill is also a booster! I think it makes the hill shy away. :D
Wouldn't it be a perfect world if we could all as beginers have a personal trainer to help us through these difficult things that come up.
I ride a lot of hills, not real steap all the time, but lots of the regardless. I would think that since I have no choice and that is all I have around here, I would get better and that just doesn't seem like the case.
I just keep plugging away though, and hope someday, all of the sudden I will be able to go up a hill at more than 4 mph, and or not have to get off and walk.
mimitabby
10-06-2006, 05:55 AM
The comment was accompanied by a photo of Pantani doing exactly that. But seriously, climbing on the tops is recommended because most people find that it expands their chest a bit and makes it easier to breathe and you need as much oxygen as you can get when you are climbing. Then again the best rule is to know when to break the rules and everyone develops their own climbing style. I'm a mostly seated climber myself.
where's the photo you are talking about? I'd like to see someone climbing standing with the hands in the drops!
li10up
10-06-2006, 06:02 AM
I realized that, on the end of a given downhill, I'd shift up (or increase cadence if no bigger gears were available) and take all the speed I could find. Then I would start the climb and as soon as I started feeling resistance I'd shift down pretty quickly, maintaining a very high cadence.
This brings up something I've been wondering about. I use the speed from the downhills to help make it up the next rise but then I always get passed by someone about 2/3 of the way to the top. What is the best way to climb...stay in a hard gear as long as possible and then shift or shift sooner? Staying in a hard gear could wear your legs out sooner but down shifting too soon causes you to gain less ground per pedal stroke. So what is the best way?
Veronica
10-06-2006, 06:20 AM
where's the photo you are talking about? I'd like to see someone climbing standing with the hands in the drops!
http://208.44.116.190/images/Veronicav-sierra.jpg
http://www.grahamwatson.com/2004/pantani/cover.jpg
The second photo is by Graham Watson.
V.
BleeckerSt_Girl
10-06-2006, 06:27 AM
What is the best way to climb...stay in a hard gear as long as possible and then shift or shift sooner? Staying in a hard gear could wear your legs out sooner but down shifting too soon causes you to gain less ground per pedal stroke. So what is the best way?
I would think it depends a lot on HOW you want to get up that hill. What's the goal for that hill?: Do you want to get up the hill in the least amount of time while pushing your body to the max? Or do you want to get up the hill while conserving your energy so you can better tackle the rest of the ride or the next big hill?
I just keep plugging away though, and hope someday, all of the sudden I will be able to go up a hill at more than 4 mph, and or not have to get off and walk.
Donna -- this sounds lots like me!!! Well, I'm too stubborn to get off and walk, though on the big ones I stop and breathe for a while here and there. But I sure do get excited when I can stay at 5mph!
I think plugging away at hills is the key, but I'm very excited to try some of the little things we're reading here!
Last night, I was thinking I could hardly wait to get back out on the bike. This morning, my leg muscles are saying they're very glad I have to work today and watch the grandbabies tomorrow! That hill yesterday must have been a doozy!
Karen in Boise
SadieKate
10-06-2006, 06:32 AM
The comment was accompanied by a photo of Pantani doing exactly that. But seriously, climbing on the tops is recommended because most people find that it expands their chest a bit and makes it easier to breathe and you need as much oxygen as you can get when you are climbing. Ah, yes, but notice Pantani's saddle to bar drop compared to Veronica's. The drops on her bars are about where the tops of his are.
Veronica
10-06-2006, 06:34 AM
I just feel like I get more power from standing in the drops and better control.
Off to work. Don't talk about me while I'm gone. :p
V.
This brings up something I've been wondering about. I use the speed from the downhills to help make it up the next rise but then I always get passed by someone about 2/3 of the way to the top. What is the best way to climb...stay in a hard gear as long as possible and then shift or shift sooner? Staying in a hard gear could wear your legs out sooner but down shifting too soon causes you to gain less ground per pedal stroke. So what is the best way?
DO shift BEFORE it gets difficult.
If you have a moderately recent road bike you have a pretty broad selection of gears just 1-2 teeth from each other. I shift down one or two gears at the time, as soon as there is any resistance. I keep my cadence relatively high through the hill. Of course I still might be passed in the end by strong cyclists, but the idea is not to loose momentum, and to avoid loosing speed quickly (which will definitely happen if you wait until it's hard to shift down).
Good luck!!
SouthernBelle
10-06-2006, 07:00 AM
Veronica,
Is that a mudflap right behind your front wheel?
SadieKate
10-06-2006, 07:04 AM
Since she's off to school and she didn't say we couldn't talk about her bike, I'll answer. Yes, it is. Made from half a water bottle.
SouthernBelle
10-06-2006, 07:17 AM
How nifty! It took me a sec to figure out her 'dangly bits' :rolleyes: My little brain is working now and I know exactly how I would build one. Trouble is I don't have a bottle to sacrifice!
BleeckerSt_Girl
10-06-2006, 07:41 AM
Ah, yes, but notice Pantani's saddle to bar drop compared to Veronica's. The drops on her bars are about where the tops of his are.
True, and also he's in a race where every millisecond counts, so switching hands back and forth too many times may lose precious time.
Veronica is on her lovely Rivendell Rambouillet if I'm not mistaken- a bike geometry/philosophy that is known for building the bars at about the same level as the seat. (just like MY blue sister-bike!)
I have a sentimental fondness for standing up for hills when I can- it takes me right back to my chilhood biking days. :)
Trekhawk
10-06-2006, 08:16 AM
DO shift BEFORE it gets difficult.
If you have a moderately recent road bike you have a pretty broad selection of gears just 1-2 teeth from each other. I shift down one or two gears at the time, as soon as there is any resistance. I keep my cadence relatively high through the hill. Of course I still might be passed in the end by strong cyclists, but the idea is not to loose momentum, and to avoid loosing speed quickly (which will definitely happen if you wait until it's hard to shift down).
Good luck!!
I read an article lately that said pretty much what Grog is saying. It said change earlier rather than later and if you still have energy near the top change to a harder gear and power over the crest.
LOL - cant tell you if that works because well hmm.....Im yet to have energy near the top of any big climb.:D
No standing on hoods or in drops -- only got "flat" bars, since this is one of those hybrid-y comfort beast bikes.
It can be more difficult to stand and pedal with a comfort style bike. I have a Marin city type bike that I've gotten back out and been using for errand running recently (its the only bike I've got that I can put a rack on and carry things easily). I have noticed that standing to pedal not only delivers less power than doing the same on my road bike, it also feels a lot less stable and I don't even have a suspension fork. I don't think that it will be impossible for you to stand and pedal - but be careful that you don't jerk your handlebars hard.
I'm guessing you bike is pretty heavy too. There is a point at which it becomes ridiculous and people will spend waaay to much money to lose an ounce or too, but when you are riding an upwards of 35 lb bike you certainly will notice the 10 - 15 lb difference that you would get out of using a road bike. You will also notice the difference in the tires - the hybrid's tires are likely much wider than a road bike's.
Cassandra_Cain
10-06-2006, 08:24 AM
Karen....
There are a number of factors contributing to positive hill climbing.
Like a number of folks have already said, you want to be in a comfortable position. Also it can be useful to slide back ever so slightly in the seat and lean forward a bit - this just gives you a bit more leverage and ability to apply force to the pedals.
Standing while climbing is easy to do, but not easy to do efficiently or right. You will make more power while standing but it will also jack up your heart rate and fatigue you very fast. Many recreational riders waste huge amounts of energy swaying the bike wildly side to side, etc. I do 90% of my climbing while seated.
Pacing is an aspect you want to consider too. Many, many people will start going up hills as fast as they were going on the flats....so of course, shortly thereafter they rapidly tire. Pace yourself sensibly, start out at a pace that feels a little slow, so that near the end you can build up rather than struggle and gasp to the top.
Another thing that is important is gearing. Most people will pedal at some rate > 70, let's say, in the flats. You want to have a low enough gear, on a hill, where you can keep your cadence higher. Higher cadence/low force is easier to maintain for a longer period, than a low cadence/high force combo.
Finally, for all the mystifying or theories about climbing, once you have your basic technique/position/gearing right - going faster up hills is as simple as power to weight ratio. More power and/or less weight = better hill climbing.
li10up
10-06-2006, 09:23 AM
Pacing is an aspect you want to consider too. Many, many people will start going up hills as fast as they were going on the flats....so of course, shortly thereafter they rapidly tire. Pace yourself sensibly, start out at a pace that feels a little slow, so that near the end you can build up rather than struggle and gasp to the top.
Finally, for all the mystifying or theories about climbing, once you have your basic technique/position/gearing right - going faster up hills is as simple as power to weight ratio. More power and/or less weight = better hill climbing.
I think you nailed it - for me at least. They guy that blows past me 2/3 of the way up seems to do this. I keep telling myself that if I could drop the extra 30 pounds I'm carrying around I'd be one h311 of a cyclist!:)
RoadRaven
10-06-2006, 09:48 AM
*pipes up again*
For what its worth, my partner and sons often climb on the drops in races.
I am learning to climb on the drops, it lowers your centre of gravity and therefore alters the way you climb...
Just like learning to stand while climbing, climbing on the drops takes determination and practice - but I def can see/feel the advantage
SouthernBelle
10-06-2006, 12:18 PM
As I relatively new rider, I read a lot and, after a rough time earlier, taught myself to spin up hills. My issue now is I can't seem to get myself out of the saddle. This is partly a head thing, and partly getting accustomed to my newer bike. There are times when I should hoist myself up and 'finish off' a hill but just can't seem to do it.
I'm so weird.
Susan, I think I am like you. I have gotten so accustumed to sitting while riding and spinning that it seems all wrong to stand up. I have read so many differing opinions on climbing while standing and climbing while sitting that I don't know what is correct so you get to where you do what your use to and comfortable with. I almost never stand while riding. :confused: Talking to the LBS guy today, he is telling me to build my endourance up, to do intervals of standing pumping hard and then sitting and letting the heart rate slow, then stand, then sit.
What is a girl to do? :eek: I tell ya though, eventually I will have enough knowledge in my head and enough riding time under my belt that, next thing you know I will have my own training way down and know enough just to be dangerous.
Main thing is, I enjoy riding, and want to continue until I eventually get better.
Geonz
10-06-2006, 01:18 PM
I'm strong on hills, but rarely get out of my seat - and I'm on a hybrid, and pretty positive there's a correlation there. I HATE the total change in balance; it just doesn't feel right at all.
It pays to shift early, and the other thing that really helps me is making sure to keep my stroke steadily going 'round and 'round the whole big circle.
I got stronger doing intervals without standing up. THere's a little excuse for a hill near me (there are very, very few hills around here) and doing repeats up that sucker does a lot for the endurance and strengtha nd speed.
BleeckerSt_Girl
10-06-2006, 03:23 PM
Donna,
I didn't start standing up on hills until I'd been riding over 2 months most every day. At first, I coould not balance at all when standing...scary! Don't expect to be able to do everything before you get a bit more experience. There's nothing "wrong" with you- you just need more time to build up your skills (just like I do as well).
I practiced on a SMALL hill, and partway up I would put my hands on the hoods and pull myself to stand- I would just stand for one downstroke on each foot, wobble along, then had to sit again. With practice, I could stand for several strokes, and now it's just plain FUN to stand and power my way up a short hill....when I *can*. Long hard hills now...that's a real challenge and I usually spin them in low gear, envision clouds, and keep my breathing deep and even.
P.S. I just love your avatar picture :)
kelownagirl
10-06-2006, 04:06 PM
Oh, that's exactly what I've been doing but you've put it into words for me! And it was working the same way - I have even passed dh a few times when normally I never could. Too bad he usually uses the same strategy... Anyways, I do it well on the rolling hills, but I die on the longer ones whether they are steep or not. Not enough stamina (yet :)
barb
Something I underestimated is shifting skills and momentum. This works for rollers, mostly. I spent a month on Vancouver Island this summer and it was ALL rolling hills, everywhere, and pretty serious hills in many cases. I have improved my shifting a lot, to a point where I can now sometimes pass my Dear Partner - a MUCH stronger cyclist than me, especially on hills - on an uphill with no hopes for him to catch up. I'm pretty sure that fitness is not the factor here, but strategy.
I thought he was just being nice in letting me pass him and not re-passing me immediately! But when he told me he actually couldn't catch up I started observing what I was doing on those specific occasions. I realized that, on the end of a given downhill, I'd shift up (or increase cadence if no bigger gears were available) and take all the speed I could find. Then I would start the climb and as soon as I started feeling resistance I'd shift down pretty quickly, maintaining a very high cadence.
In other words, it means no real resting on the downhill. But a really fun time on the uphill!!!!
In any case, practice is the key. There is no other way to get good on hills. Sometimes slow, sometimes fast, in different gears, trying different tricks, sitting, standing, singing (it helps). Smiling at the hill is also a booster! I think it makes the hill shy away. :D
kelownagirl
10-06-2006, 04:09 PM
Standing just tires me out so fast, but I like doing it. The main time I really stand is when I take off when the light turns green at an intersection. And that makes me feel like a kid, like someone else already mentioned..
SouthernBelle
10-06-2006, 05:51 PM
Standing just tires me out so fast, but I like doing it. The main time I really stand is when I take off when the light turns green at an intersection. And that makes me feel like a kid, like someone else already mentioned..
That's when I can stand!!
BeeLady
10-06-2006, 06:25 PM
I am doing much better on hills mainly by concentrating on keeping my cadence steady in lower gears and have at times been able to go into a higher gear near the top to get over the top fast and moving well into the descent.
When I try to stand, however, when I'm in a low enough gear that can keep me at 75 cadence or so, its like there's no resistence when I stand and no significant forward movement. Should I be shifting into a higher gear before I stand? I have toyed with that but because I have dislocated my right kneecap several times in my past life, I worry about stressing the knee by standing and pushing a bigger gear. I don't know if the standing or the bigger gear is what seems to stress it. Standing while in a small gear doesnt seem right or am I just not doing it right?
I am doing small arc knee extensions to strenghten my knee but the question I have is once I can push a bigger gear standing is that what the object is? Move along with my smooth cadence, shift up and then stand? :confused:
Or just enjoy the fact that I've improved as much as I have on hills (no longer will I go a mile out of my way to avoid one!) and leave the standing til Im stronger in general??? (Like I really have a choice :o )
Crankin
10-07-2006, 04:38 AM
You can't avoid hills where I live! But, I also find it very difficult to stand and climb on the big ones. First, it was a balance issue and the fact that i was in too low of a gear. Now I will stand on little rollers, but I find it really doesn't get me that much more speed (1-2 mph) going up the little rollers. It raises my HR more than I like, too. On a really steep climb I stay seated. Usually near the top, where poeple tell you to get up out of the saddle, I don't have the strength to do that. I'm talking about 12-18% grades here... I focus on even, steady pedal strokes, my breathing, and usually I try to remember what I do when mountain biking. I do gear up at the beginning of a long and/or steep climb. While I will be in the granny gear, I will stay in a pretty high cog until I start feeling the need to shift down. That way I actually have some gears to shift down to. I have never had to walk up a hill using this strategy, including some really challenging ones in Austria. I don't really care how fast I am going, but now I can climb medium hills at 10-11 mph and really steep ones at 6-8. I did see 5 a few times in Europe, though.
Cassandra_Cain
10-07-2006, 06:07 AM
When I try to stand, however, when I'm in a low enough gear that can keep me at 75 cadence or so, its like there's no resistence when I stand and no significant forward movement. Should I be shifting into a higher gear before I stand? I have toyed with that but because I have dislocated my right kneecap several times in my past life, I worry about stressing the knee by standing and pushing a bigger gear. I don't know if the standing or the bigger gear is what seems to stress it. Standing while in a small gear doesnt seem right or am I just not doing it right?
Hi Bee - when I am going to stand while climbing, I generally shift up 1 or 2 gears. As you've discovered, standing and trying to pedal in an easy gear is not very productive. When you stand you produce a bit more power than when sitting because more of your body weight is over the cranks and your arms help a bit too.
I am doing small arc knee extensions to strenghten my knee but the question I have is once I can push a bigger gear standing is that what the object is? Move along with my smooth cadence, shift up and then stand? :confused:
Or just enjoy the fact that I've improved as much as I have on hills (no longer will I go a mile out of my way to avoid one!) and leave the standing til Im stronger in general??? (Like I really have a choice :o )
Hmmm, I'd say the object is getting up the hill as fast and comfortably as possible right? :D
Standing while climbing uses up a disproportionate amount of energy. If you ever watch a professional cycling race, you'll notice that the riders that spend the most time standing while on a climb, are those with very light 'climber' builds. I'm talking 5'7", 130 pounds here. The rest of us conserve much more energy by sitting most of the time.
liberty
10-07-2006, 06:11 AM
My deal with standing is that for some reason it would torque my left knee (before I went clipless). Hills that I would be painfree on if I sat and pedaled were suddenly stressing out that knee and I'd need a week to recover. Had basically written off standing up hills. Part of my reason for standing was I wanted to be able to go faster up the hills, and sometimes it was because I was too tired to try to sit and pedal/wait to get up them... Odd, I know. And it makes no sense to me as I write this... These are all types of hills: long ones, short and steep ones, long and steep ones... No matter, if I stood up it, I paid for it. Since I got the clipless I am hoping that it keeps my knee more stable and I can go up the hills easier. Aerobic fitness? Still trying to regain that. So for me right now it is the easiest gears all the way up, baby. At the top of the hill I collapse in a pile until my breathing recovers, and then I keep going. Fun stuff.
wavedancer
10-07-2006, 06:36 AM
One little mental focus trick that I found has helped me with climbing is to focus my attention in my lower abdomen and hips. I imagine all my power coming from the center of my abdomen, into my hips and thighs to drive my legs. It seems to take the pressure off my knees and I am able to increase my cadence if I don't want to downshift into an easier gear.
Linda
CR400
10-07-2006, 08:39 AM
Personally I climb in my drops when standing, sprint in my drops, and power up (starting in a big gear and spinning it up to the speed I want to be at) in them. Helps me to feel that I have more control of the bike especailly when using the big watts it takes to get this fat body up a hill. I use hoods for relaxed riding and the tops for even more relaxed riding.
Trek420
10-07-2006, 08:51 AM
I climb seated, hardley ever stand, hands on the hoods, and badly :cool:
I think I could stand to relaxe my arms a bit.
there's a photo here
www.breastcancerfund.org/siteapps/tools/PhotoDetail.aspx?c=kwKXLdPaE&b=2068549&p={FA89DBB9-08EA-4972-9E91-9799E7E6D7AF}&st=ASC
same gallery photo # 37 is our own cindysue and her crew.
It's taken by Mark Fong, Marc Fong, Jr. and Carol Melanie Galan who provided photographs for the Breast Cancer Fund. Photographs may not be reproduced, copied, televised, digitized or used in any way without permission of the Breast Cancer Fund and/or the photographer so not gonna import it :p
Quillfred
10-07-2006, 09:25 AM
I climb seated, hardley ever stand, hands on the hoods, and badly :cool:
I think I could stand to relaxe my arms a bit.
there's a photo here
www.breastcancerfund.org/siteapps/tools/PhotoDetail.aspx?c=kwKXLdPaE&b=2068549&p={FA89DBB9-08EA-4972-9E91-9799E7E6D7AF}&st=ASC:p
Hey, nice pic Trek! You get extra points for smiling on a climb. :D
Trek420
10-07-2006, 10:08 AM
Thanks! I had a feeling that would be a good picture because he caught me:
* early in the ride on Tunnel Road before I was cursing the hills.
* on a turn, I'd just got the line right and was enjoying a tiny bit of momentum.
* when my grimace could be mistaken for a smile.
Only thing wrong is if I knew he's around the corner I'd still have my AV arm skins up, I'd just pushed them down 8-(
I'd like to use the photo on my homepage but I'm contacting the photographer first.
RoadRaven
10-07-2006, 10:37 AM
I have been following this thread with interest and I think the consensus seems to be to climb seated.
Everything I have read agrees... climb seated, that will make you strong...
From what I understand, standing should be reserved for short power bursts - like getting across an intersection quickly when the lights turn green, or sprinting in a race (essentially the same thing, really :p ).
Standing on a hill is also a short power burst. If you are training yourself to stand, then stand whenever, wherever you choose to. But in a training/commuting/racing situation, my understanding is that to monster a hill you climb in the gear you can most comfortably get on top of - seated. Near the top, or at a steep pinch, you stand so that you can maintain your speed (even though you have increased your power output).
In a hill situation, standing should not mean legs wildly spinning because the gear is too low. It should mean a continuation of the rythym you had before for a short time frame. (As I said earlier, when I first started standing, my HR would rocket so high the most I could do was a few pedal rotations.)
The goal should be to get up and over hills relatively comfortably, without blowing your heart rate or your legs... and ALWAYS remember to keep going over the hill... to stop at the top gives the lactic acid no chance to disperse and increases the discomfort you will have. So crest the hill and start gpoing down the other side, and keep your legs moving round even if there is no resistence.
After 2 years riding, and only this year being able to stand, and only the last few months being able to stand for a length of time, it is about practice and feeling what is right for you and the type of bike you ride.
Listen to your body - it tells you sooooo much.
liberty
10-07-2006, 12:04 PM
Wavedancer: I tried your little trick today when I went out for a ride. It worked great. The few times I did stand up for the hills, I mentally focused on the lower abs and hips. Seemed like my knees were happy campers! And I found I wasn't moving my shoulders so much. Think that might have been why I was torqueing my knees. And the clipless pedals are good, too! Happy day; very happy day.
kelownagirl
10-07-2006, 12:47 PM
One thing I have REALLY noticed, is how much road biking has helped my mountain bike climbing. I actually enjoy hills on my MTbike now. Lots of times, I don't even have to go down into my granny anymore. Maybe I should ride an old single speed bike up and down hills to make me appreciate the gears on my road bike? :)
SouthernBelle
10-07-2006, 12:56 PM
Wavedancer, I wish I had read your suggestion before my ride this morning. I did a charity ride and I think it was all uphill. :o I think my quads screamed out loud a couple of times.
This ride was helpful to me for a couple of reasons. I had a mechanical problem so I ended up way at the back. But I caught back up thanks to a couple of early flats and ascents. But I just don't have the leg strength I did once. I lost a lot when I wrecked earlier this year and have never gotten it all back.
So for the winter I need to concentrate on strength and endurance for climbs.
aicabsolut
10-08-2006, 08:20 AM
Forgive me for the newbie question, but I guess it fits in here:
Any tips for learning to stand and climb?
I grew up on beach cruisers on the flattest ground ever, so I never learned to stand up and mash on the pedals.
Now I've got new body position and all to worry about too. I can stand and coast, I can hover as I hop over a bridge edge or big tree root bump. I could stand and pedal a tiny bit before I went clipless when I'd start up on the bike in a big gear. But it's too easy to spin on a flat with clipless in a big gear that I haven't been practicing there--feel like I need more resistance from the gears. I figure it'd be easier to learn in a climb when I need to rev up my speed a little bit as my legs start to burn. (Now I live in a place with hills...not mountains but big enough for my newbie self and sprinter's build).
I see people do it all the time. And I get the concept of rocking the bike, but I'm worried about the sideways topple. Maybe I don't give myself enough credit. I mean, my 3 yr old nephew can stand and pedal...though ok, he has training wheels. :D
I tried practicing on my trainer to get an idea about what gears I'm comfortable with, but the rear tire slips too much. Tried cranking up the resistance knob but I still couldn't get smooth circles. (I can stand and be pretty still on a spin bike, with smooth circles if that helps).
Any tips are welcome :)
BleeckerSt_Girl
10-08-2006, 08:50 AM
Forgive me for the newbie question, but I guess it fits in here:
Any tips for learning to stand and climb?
Any tips are welcome :)
I gave a few tips earlier in this thread.
Trek420
10-08-2006, 09:30 AM
aicabsolut "--feel like I need more resistance from the gears. I figure it'd be easier to learn in a climb when I need to rev up my speed a little bit as my legs start to burn."
there's a couple ways to get that higher gear.
One is what some call "the magic gear". On a climb where you "run out of gears", you're in the granniest of granny gears and wish there was a lower one ;) pop it 1-2 gears higher (folks somewhere here we have a thread on shifting under load and sometimes .... you just can't do that! but if you can...) climb standing till you've got a little rest then voila!! shift down 1-2.
It's magic, lower gears!
Or...let the bike come to you. If you need some resistance to climb standing feather the pedals and let it slow down a little till ... voila! You can stand.
Don't know if this is right.
"I get the concept of rocking the bike, but I'm worried about the sideways topple."
The feeling I try for is not rocking the bike but relaxe the hands and you kinda toss it back and forth lightly like tossing a light bean bag from hand to hand. Don't know if that makes sense. It's hard to keep the upper body relaxed.
Hope this helps.
Trek420
10-21-2006, 07:38 AM
Photo taken by Mark Fong, Marc Fong, Jr. and Carol Melanie Galan who provided photographs for the Breast Cancer Fund. Photographs may not be reproduced, copied, televised, digitized or used in any way without permission of the Breast Cancer Fund and/or the photographer.
Bikingmomof3
10-21-2006, 08:11 AM
Fabulous Photo! Great smile. :cool:
KnottedYet
10-21-2006, 09:05 AM
Nice bike, too! :D ;)
CyclingKat
11-22-2006, 09:48 AM
What is that saying? "That which doesn't kill you makes stronger?" For sure on hills. I ride regularly with a group in Southern California, so there are lots of hills to ride. The best way to get better at climbing is to just keeping looking for opportunities to do it. Some things that have helped me:
On long hills, find a good gear and steady rhythm. Hands on the tops of the handle bars in order to keep your lungs open. Pedal in circles. Focus on breathing and turning over those cranks.
The best advice I was given on those long climbs is to find a comfortable pace, so as not to blow out at the bottom. Once you get to the top third or so of the hill, pick up your place, put it in a slighter harder gear and push for the top ... "up and over."
I used to get frustrated at those cyclists who go zipping by me at the bottom, until I learned that if I keep the same pace at the beginning, I usually am able to steadily gain ground on them and pass them when they're spent!
:D
DirtDiva
11-22-2006, 01:54 PM
I find it helps a lot to just keep reminding myself that I'm not actually going to die, nor will my legs actually fall off, and I probably won't even throw up/pass out/some combination thereof. And I never roadie-ride proper hills with other people. :p
I'm going to look for the shifting under pressure thread because I think my bike doesn't change gears fast enough-I lose lot of momentum or my chain gets stuck going to a higher gear while climbing. I've learned a lot from this thread. Now to put it into action.
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