how many seasons and/or miles til experienced?

[tygab]

An article in Bicycling magazine (I picked it up to read it on the plane) has had me thinking. In the story, a newbie cyclist Jeremy started riding in spring of 2003 and promptly crashed over the next three years many times. Friends were concerned that he wasn't really fit for cycling, even though cycling had made him fit (and the before and after pics are quite a big difference).

Anyway the article mentioned that they figured it takes several seasons before a new cyclist has developed enough experience - for both most efficient riding, but also for dealing with obstacles, challenges and so on. What are your opinions on this? I am winding down my first season as a cyclist (not too long before winter around here), and I know I have only just started learning, but I also know I have learned a lot.

Some things I know I can't do that I think a more experienced cyclist probably can - stop up hills easy, stay off the brakes downhill, take turns faster, maybe evade bad things in the road better.

To solve Jeremy's problem, they tackled several areas, including refitting him to a more appropriate bike, sending him off to an advanced handling clinic etc.

One thing the article suggested for those who wanted to play at home was basically riding around a grassy field and leaning over to pick up a water bottle, half full without toppling it or yourself. No way I could do that today! The thought of it makes my hairs stand on end. And if that seemed easy, they suggested pouring out more and more water.

I spend all my time trying to make sure I am right side up and balanced, and I slow down for corners or any other perilous looking things (at least as much as I can predict, but I do worry about someday not being able to predict something).

How many years for the more veteran riders out there until you just sort of have these skills? Are you still learning things even now? Are there things I could be doing to get more out of my riding, or things to think about for next year?

TIA.

[aicabsolut]

Good question! I'm interested in hearing some answers.

I was talking to my dad recently (he has a decades-old entry level racing Bianchi) about how I never learned many handling skills on my old cruisers as a kid and now I feel so far behind figuring out my road bike. I commented that even the cheesy (yet awesome) 'Breaking Away' movie had the guy who could pick stuff up off the ground and reach down and fix his toe clip, among other things, and he's just an actor. My dad said, "um, I could do that too." He used his bike for fitness and commuting. The last time he went out on the bike regularly I was riding on the back in a baby seat, so I never really thought of him as being exceptionally athletic.

I'd love some input on the cycling/bike handling learning curve so I can set realistic goals for myself and keep some frustration at bay.

[Veronica]

You can pass a motorcycle going downhill.

You have fixed at least 4 flats on the road (two if they were in the rain.)

You no longer care how you look in lycra.

You can clip/unclip w/o falling - or you have decided that clipless pedals aren't required and you're happy with that decision.

You can ride your road bike in the dirt.

You have actually used a chain tool. Bonus points if it was on the side of the road.

You have multiple sets of the same tools and know how to use them.

You know what you can eat at mile (1)10, (1)20, (1)30 etc.

You have at least one entire drawer devoted to your summer/winter bike clothing. The off season stuff is put away in a box in the garage/attic/cellar.

You've learned to ride your own ride and don't care what other people think.

V.

[Grog]

I started doing pick-up-the-waterbottle-type exercises after about a year and a half of cycling more seriously... on pavement, not grass, mind you. I could have started trying earlier. I also got to try bike-polo (yeah, like polo on a horse, but on a bike...), on the grass though.

These are good skills to practice. Like doing figure-8s with your bike (on both sides), trying to make smaller and smaller circles, etc.

And, no, I could never pick up the *"/$( bottle, but almost did. I also fell off my bike once when I locked my left foot into my wheel. That's life. But I did learn lots of skills. I should be practicing more...

[tygab]

You can pass a motorcycle going downhill.

You have fixed at least 4 flats on the road (two if they were in the rain.)

You no longer care how you look in lycra.

You can clip/unclip w/o falling - or you have decided that clipless pedals aren't required and you're happy with that decision.

You can ride your road bike in the dirt.

You have actually used a chain tool. Bonus points if it was on the side of the road.

You have multiple sets of the same tools and know how to use them.

You know what you can eat at mile (1)10, (1)20, (1)30 etc.

You have at least one entire drawer devoted to your summer/winter bike clothing. The off season stuff is put away in a box in the garage/attic/cellar.

You've learned to ride your own ride and don't care what other people think.

V.

Well some of this I have done - I never really cared how I looked in bike shorts tho early season pics suggest maybe I should have (heh). I have been able to pace my food intake for distance miles (50+) and next year I want to tackle a century, so I think that'll be ok. Have only summer clothes at present but working on getting some more seasonal items. Much of the early season was about clipless learning and confidence, so I feel pretty set there now. Road bike in the dirt, not so much.

Most of the tools I haven't used. Maybe that's a good place to start, learn some bike maintenance in the off season time. I guess I was thinking more like handling and riding skills tho.

[liberty]

That is such a good question. I was thinking along those lines today. Ending my first season with my new road bike. Before that I just played around a little bit with bikes, riding sporatically... I just love riding now! The bike made all the difference. And my body responds well to bike riding. Don't know if obsession is what I'd call this bike thing for me. :D There is a definite desire to learn as much as I can and be a good rider.

The beginning of the season I was having an easy time of it. Nothing went wrong as far as flats or encounters of the strange kind. Looking back on it now, my brain was in la-la land, enjoying everything and probably noticing nothing of my surroundings. But within the last few months, the honeymoon has definitely ended. A couple crashes and falls, and the ensuing legalities and repairs and physical recoveries and crud... You kind of think, "gosh, do I really want to do this?" "Do I really want to keep this up?"

The answer is yes, I do. But I feel different now. Just this week I've noticed I find myself looking at everything so differently. Not just fun and games anymore; there is a serious side to this thing that could mean the difference between life and death in certain circumstances. Of course anything can happen even if you do everything correctly. But learning skills and exposing yourself to differing environments can only enhance your maturity level as a rider. Guess I'm just saying that it isn't only the cycling skills that have to grow and mature; we also have to grow mentally and emotionally as riders. Be aware of probable outcomes. Keep the brain in the game. I know I am SUCH a newbie and will be for quite a while, but something has changed in me.

If there is anyone in the St Louis area who wants to practice picking up water bottles sometime, give me a holler! Other drills would be cool too. I probably would never do it unless I had someone else to laugh with me. Bikemom- maybe that is something we can do in the bike seminar... And yes, I did say holler.

[Eden]

You can pass a motorcycle going downhill.

You have fixed at least 4 flats on the road (two if they were in the rain.)

You no longer care how you look in lycra.

You can clip/unclip w/o falling - or you have decided that clipless pedals aren't required and you're happy with that decision.

You can ride your road bike in the dirt.

You have actually used a chain tool. Bonus points if it was on the side of the road.

You have multiple sets of the same tools and know how to use them.

You know what you can eat at mile (1)10, (1)20, (1)30 etc.

You have at least one entire drawer devoted to your summer/winter bike clothing. The off season stuff is put away in a box in the garage/attic/cellar.

You've learned to ride your own ride and don't care what other people think.

V.

Wow - amazingly enough I can actually say yes to all of those......ummm my name is Eden and I'm a bike addict.....
but I'm not sure if I can pick up a bottle or not.

[Kitsune06]

I cheated on the bottle thing... outta the seat and leaning the bike out a little the other way. Took a lot of strength to pull it up to the 'right' position though. I don't think you're supposed to do it that way on a road bike :D

[velogirl]

I teach folks how to ride bikes. That's what I do for a living. I teach beginners who've never sat on a bike before, experienced racers who've been racing for years, and everyone in between. I think I've just about seen it all when it comes to learning to ride.

Anyways, I've got a few theories about why we progress at different rates.

The first has to do with your athletic history. I firmly believe that if you've mastered any balance sport (skiing, skating, cycling, sky-diving, dancing, etc), you can easily pick up another balance sport. By mastery, I mean that you understand the principles behind balance and weight distribution. Afterall, cycling (and other balance sports) are all about balance and weight distribution.

How many of you really understand why your bike stays upright when it's rolling? Or why it's more stable leaning through a turn? Or why you should sit behind the saddle during an emergency stop or a steep descent? Do you realize that you steer your bike with your hips (not your hands)?

Unfortunately, most new riders never take the time to learn the basic prinicples behind the sport -- balance and weight distribution. Instead, they learn the more intricate "tricks" of the trade -- cornering, descending, steering, taking one or both hands off the bar, etc. All fine and good, but these are the icing on the cake. These are the implementations of those two basic principles. And if you never really understand those two principles, you'll never really master cycling.

Okay, that's theory one.

Now, on to some other thoughts.

We all learn differently. Some of us have more outgoing personalities than others. Some of us like risk. Some of us have fear or are timid. Some of us are very analytical. Our personality affects the way we approach the sport. While being conservative may prevent you from crashing, it will most likely also prevent you from really understanding how to push your limits and also to understand how the bike works.

Many of us also never receive instruction in how to ride. Everyone knows how to ride a bike, right? Or, we just get tips from the older gentleman in the club who's been riding for 40 years (whether or not he really knows what he's doing). Participating in a skills clinic or private instruction with a coach is the best way to learn how to ride a bike. If we want to learn to golf, we take lessons. Same with tennis and skiing. And the same should be true with cycling, however I can't tell you how many people I know who mistakenly think they know how to ride. We certainly wouldn't try to drive a car or ride a motorcycling without instruction. Why do we try to ride a bike without learning how to do it properly?

Most of us just get on the bike and ride. We might learn a little more about HR or cadence or even proper skills, but we never practice those things. If you want to learn to descend like an ace, you need to learn to counter-steer like a pro and be able to do it at speed (20+ mph). To do that, you have to go to a parking lot and practice. A lot. Frequently. If you do take a clinic, you need to practice your skills until you really understand them.

Whew! Can you tell I'm passionate about this? I see so much potential on the road. I believe just about anyone can become a skilled, confident rider. I wish each one of you could take one of my clinics -- you'd be amazed at what a difference you'd see in your riding.

[ClockworkOrange]

......................Whew! Can you tell I'm passionate about this? I see so much potential on the road. I believe just about anyone can become a skilled, confident rider. I wish each one of you could take one of my clinics -- you'd be amazed at what a difference you'd see in your riding.

OK, can you book me up for a correspondence course, 'cos it's just a little bit too far to commute!

You guys really get into this cycling thing, way more than in the UK.

It makes interesting reading though, thanks for taking the time to write it all.

I have a constant low back problem and am just very wary of doing anything too fast or daring. One thing I would really like to be able to do, is bump or jump up a kerb, I always have to stop and then lift my bike...............doh! BTW, I ride a MTB not a road bike.


Sally

[Crankin]

Hi Tasha,

I thought your questions were interesting. According to Veronica's criteria, I will never be an experienced cyclist! I mean you rode with me and I hope I didn't look like a newbie when I was leading our ride. I think it does have to do with personality differences, risk aversion, and what kind of athletic background we have. I've been riding for 6 years (the first 2 on a street ready mtb). I still cannot master the water bottle thing very well. I wear my Camelback for any ride longer than 20 miles, not only so I don't have to worry about dropping my bottle, but also, I find that I need to drink an incredible amount. On a 50 mile ride I will drink the whole Camelbak of water and one bottle of Accelerade, sometimes 1 and a half. My problem is basically balance and really bad depth perception. I find I just cannot take my right hand off of the bar for anything, except signalling and even that is hard (I"ve practiced that). I can descend at 30 mph but I don't like it. It has to be a fairly straight road for me to do that and most mountain descents aren't straight. I find myself feeling very out of control and scared over about 25 mostly because I don't have the leaning, balance thing right, especially on right corners. So I just go slow. I would rather ride than say I have to practice everything before I can go out and ride. I do want to work on these things, but I need someone to coach me as Velogirl says.
I skated as a kid, but that didn't seem to help my balance issues. I think I am doing a lot more than I EVER thought I would, especially at the age of almost 53. On the other hand, I feel pretty comfortable in a lot of traffic situations that would have freaked me out 2 years ago. I am cautious and vigilant and I think that makes me feel comfortable. My husband is very aggressive when he commutes in traffic on Rt. 27 and I couldn't do that. I feel like I am assertive, but not aggressive.
The mechanical stuff is another thing. I know you are a techie, but I am the absolute opposite. I can change a tire, but getting the back wheel on is not easy for me. I have never had to do it on the road. I've only had 2 flats while riding and my husband changed them both, to save time... he can do it with no tools in about 5 minutes! I really don't feel the need to learn to do anything else besides change a flat and grease my chain, which I do. If something else breaks, I would not attempt to fix it. It would be great if we could practice some mechanical stuff together this winter.
I don't think I'm a newbie, but I am not sure I would ever master some of the other things people have discussed here.

Robyn

[GLC1968]

I have been pondering this exact same topic for a couple of weeks now myself...ever since reading that same article in Bicycling! I'm finishing my second 'season' of cycling (though I plan to ride year round this year) and while I can ride centuries and climb mountains, I still find myself very much wanting to improve my handling skills. (my decents are practically slower than my climbs! :p )

Veronica - I can say 'yes' to all but maybe two of your 'criteria' but I know I still have a TON to learn. Actually, my guess is that the Jeremy guy in the article would be able to say 'yes' as well...and he still had issues. I think it was really interesting because while he was fit and fast...and he got there in record time (like 1 season?) but it didn't give him time to develop the proper handling skills. His riding buddies said that he was a menace because he was good enough to get into trouble, but not good enough to get out in time! :eek: (this is my dad's theory on 4x4's...they just get you stuck further away from help! ;) )

Velogirl - very interesting points! Your thoughts on balance interest me greatly. I grew up ice skating...hours a day. I also happen to be blessed with general coordination and athleticism. BUT, when I first started riding, balance was DEFINITELY a big problem for me. Now that I have a bike that fits me better (my first one was too big), my balance has improved, but it's still a weak spot for me (which I never would have guessed). There is no way that I could pick up a water bottle. I have a hard time getting it out of my cage while holding my line...never mind off the ground!! I'd like to try racing, but I know that I'd be a danger to myself and the other riders without some serious bike handling skill improvement. I really want to take a clinic. How would one go about finding something like you described here in my area?

[Veronica]

According to Veronica's criteria...

"It's a joke son. I say it's a joke."

V.

When you ask for someone's opinion, that's what you're going to get. It doesn't make it truth.

[Geonz]

I read about Jeremy and reflected that he's what happens when people don't approach cycling as something to *learn.* These are the guys (tho' not necessarily of the male persuasion) who get strong and fast before they figure out group dynamics or physics (or other factors - like getting overheated and going off the road ... more than once... think and learn, good people!)

Whether the instruciton is formal or via finding knowledgeable folks and asking, a person can become "experienced" more quickly by doing it on purpose. Practice makes a difference, too -miles in different situations.

I've got lots and lots of miles - but still consider myself inexperienced about some things (and I'm not being humble... I'm downright ignorant:rolleyes: ) Mainly 'cause it just takes me longer to learn some stuff...

[DeniseGoldberg]

I'm delighted to hear that Veronica was joking (although I've actually done most of the things in her list).

I consider myself a pretty experienced cyclist, but I've never tried to pick a water bottle up from the ground - and while that may be a good exercise, it's not something I have any intention of trying. I think that as you continue to ride you will continue to become more comfortable with some of the things you've listed as non-starters. Some of the things will remain though. For example, in spite of the number of years I've been riding, I still have problems getting started on a steep uphill. That's just me - and perhaps if I had more steep hills near my home and spent more time practicing, I could get over that. But it's not something I beat myself up over.

I'd say, keep riding, set reasonable goals, and enjoy yourself!

--- Denise

[Tater]

You can pass a motorcycle going downhill.
V.

Hey, no fair if it was your hubby on his motorcycle! :D

I know I still have a lot to learn about cycling, but I figure the more T.I.T.S I get, the more I learn. For instance, hills; I have a love-hate relationship with them. I hate doing them, my technique sucks (but is improving), but each time I go out to do them, I learn something. Hopefully, in time, these little learning sessions will make me a better rider.

[mtbdarby]

I would be what I consider athletic, but when I tried one of the tests they had Jeremy do to test his balance (stand with your arms straight out to the side, place one foot on the inside of the other thigh and close your eyes), I couldn't hold that pose for 5 seconds! I too would like to improve basic bike handling skills so I can teach them to my son.

Velogirl, looks like you'll be heading out on tour to teach us TE girls how to really ride! Let me know when you're in WI.....

[BeeLady]

I will be looking for a cycling coach - my husband has mentioned that already and it does make sense. Meanwhile I have recently done lots of internet reading on proper ettiquite/safety when riding in a group and in general because a large neighborhood group ride sponsored by our LBS is what has really gotten me fired up about cycling besides just using my bike for errands. Just competed my first event (36.5 miles) and am raring to go.

I enjoy my bike and wouldn't not ride because I felt I wasn't skilled enough. Seems like more skill will come with time and mindfulness in the saddle. Fortunately I rode a unicycle as a kid and roller skated for years so I do have some natural balance. In the '70s I rode in Houston traffic on my ten-speed for miles and miles each day, no real thought about whether or not I was skilled enough to be doing that (the bliss of being a teen).

Fast forward thirty years and I am much more cautious in traffic but will take a downhill as fast as they come, even on my 12-year-old, $200 (new) bike. (BUT, I just ordered a Bianchi Volpe to replace my workhorse -- can't wait!). Hopefully on a decent bike I won't keep thinking my front wheel is about to spin off. That's where skill would come in handy -- knowing whether I'm on a safe descent or not (easy to know its fun:D ).

I will re-new my search for a coach - guess cycling is like skating - most people can get around a rink but for jumps, spins and spirals it takes some instruction. Will use the limited skills I have but am always happy to learn more.

Would like to live the rest of my life as an experienced cyclist - I'm at the starting line now.

[mimitabby]

I have been logging my miles all year and I have ridden almost 2000 miles already in just this year!
Do i feel like a real experienced rider? NOPE.. you know why? Most of the people i ride with rode 5000 miles this year so far, and have done so so so much more than i will ever do.

I am seriously considering taking one of Velogirl's classes, but one of my bigger problems is that i will be 55. I don't want to fall anymore, so there are a lot of risks I just don't take (I will try the waterbottle thing though)

I guess you're experienced when you feel like it. Even the newest newbies
can get on this forum and give practical advice. it's because they've learned something and now, through their experience, they can help someone else. It's a great feeling to be able to help someone else. When you get there, you are experienced.

HOW experienced? :) that's another question.

[7rider]

"It's a joke son. I say it's a joke."

V.

When you ask for someone's opinion, that's what you're going to get. It doesn't make it truth.


WHEW! That's a relief!!! :D
Cuz, when I read your list, I thought "Where's the bar? I thought your aren't a REAL cyclist until you walk into a seedy neighborhood bar while clad in lycra and ask to refill your waterbottles!"

And BTW, I thought I was experienced (anyone got Jimi Hendrix running through their brains?) but perhaps not! (BTW, I'm breathing down the neck of mile 2,000 also this year...a personal best for me.)

Honestly, I wouldn't know what to do with a chain tool and keep my LBS on speed dial on my cell! I know just enough about bike mechanics and maintenance to be dangerous. I figure, I don't change my oil in my car by myself and I have no clue how it works, so do I really need to do all my bike work by myself? Sure, I can fix a flat, adjust my saddle, replace my cleats, and change pedals. But repair or replace a headset? Overhaul a bottom bracket? Swap out a cassette? Nope. Mostly, I rely on routine check ups with my trusted mechanic to keep the machine running correctly from the start.

P.S. I never picked up a waterbottle from the ground, and I"d probably break my neck if I tried!

[RoadRaven]

Well, I have heard from local coaches, local "top" riders, riders who have been riding for decades and also read in some articles and books that it is two years...

Its not miles on the bike, or actual hours...

It two years of getting your body used to cycling on a regular basis...

Thats what I heard anyway...

[aicabsolut]

Velogirl,
You raise lots of great points. I've wondered many of the same things as someone who teaches people how to ride horses.
I think that prior athletic history is a pretty small part of it, though, and maybe can get chalked up to talent. I say this because I can steer a 1,000lb animal towards a 4'+ high fence with my hips and legs and bodyweight. I've jumped over fences with no hands, while taking a bite of a doughnut (on a dare). But I am not comfortable reaching for my water bottle in its cage yet, while holding a line.
Part of it is that I've been working on tweaking my saddle position and my butt's position on that saddle to be better balanced. But without being able to grip the top tube with my legs, for example, I'm still pretty hopeless. Also, on a road bike, you're still bent over, which I know from horses takes amazing body control, fitness, and practice to keep from falling on your face when hands are removed--unless you've got them stuck out to the side or in some other position that helps you balance better.

Still, the physics of cycling versus other balance sports is different. While I understand the difference in how a racing cyclist versus a motorcycle racer versus a jockey takes a corner at speed, doing it is another thing, particularly without someone watching you on the ground and giving you feedback.

I've always wondered why so many cyclists have limited (e.g., email) access if any at all to coaches. I'd love someone to help me the same way I tweak body position and 'handling skills' of an equestrian--whether it be a beginner or a pretty advanced competitor. I'd love a clinic, but I still feel that I'm really starting from scratch--with just a smidgen of athletic talent--when it comes to bike handling.

Besides losing the fear of falling on your face, what does it take? Just hours on the bike? Any way to speed up the learning process and flatten out that learning curve some?

[Crankin]

Veronica, I sort of knew that you were kidding (i.e. the lycra comments...), but I always feel inadequate compared to the people who ride 5,000 miles a year and can do all of their own mechanics. In fact, I feel like a poseur (sp?) a lot of the time. Yep, I've ridden 2500 miles this year and I can climb pretty well for an old lady. But I don't know how much more I can improve. My speed has gone up a lot, but I seem to have reached a plateau. It takes me longer to recover now that I have been doing more longer rides (50-100 miles).

This is sort of like when I taught aerobics. I was constantly comparing myself to the 20 year old instructors who had strong dance backgrounds and had nothing better to do than to hang out at the gym. It made the whole thing not fun. I don't want this to happen with cycling. You have to put it all in perspective. Most "regular" people, who don't ride or even do any exercise at all think all of us are amazing. When i started thinking that a 50 mile ride is not a big deal, i knew something was crazy...

[Veronica]

(i.e. the lycra comments...), but I always feel inadequate compared to the people who ride 5,000 miles a year and can do all of their own mechanics.


I wasn't joking about the last thing on the list. :D

It's the whole comparision thing. Why do we do that? Ride your ride and enjoy it. Get as good at it as you want to get. But don't feel like you have to be like someone else.

I ride so much because I'm an insane lunatic, who actually likes the way my body feels at mile 150. I learned to do my mechanical stuff, because I ride alone A LOT - even on a big ride I'm alone. Does that make me a better rider? No - just crazier and I need to be self sufficient.

BTW I have never passed Thom on his motorcycle. It was three other guys that I have passed on three different rides. :p Yes, I'm counting.

V.

[SadieKate]

Unfortunately, most new riders never take the time to learn the basic prinicples behind the sport -- balance and weight distribution. Instead, they learn the more intricate "tricks" of the trade -- cornering, descending, steering, taking one or both hands off the bar, etc. All fine and good, but these are the icing on the cake. These are the implementations of those two basic principles. And if you never really understand those two principles, you'll never really master cycling.Amen! Especially true for road-only riders.

I add to this that one should know enough basic mechanical skills to get you home.

You can ride for miles and miles and take forever to learn some things, or get a coach and have a much steeper learning curve.

[xeney]

SadieKate, does your comment about road-only riders mean that you think mountain biking is a good way to learn some of these skills?

I ask because that is exactly why Jeremy (uh, my husband, not the Jeremy in the article) encouraged me to get a mountain bike and take some skills clinics (which I am going to do this spring; it is much easier to find mountain biking clinics than road clinics, it seems), because he said he learned most of what he knows about bike handling from mountain biking (and also from riding BMX bikes as a kid).

[SadieKate]

Absolutely! You must move around on a mtb and learn about weight and balance or . . . else.:D

Yes, it is easier to find skills clinics for mountainbiking. It's too bad. I think there is a cultural assumption that we all learned to ride a bike as a child and road riding isn't any different. It's only from experience that you learn how much you don't know.

[SadieKate]

In what issue should I look for this article?

[velogirl]

You can ride for miles and miles and take forever to learn some things, or get a coach and have a much steeper learning curve.


A steeper learning curve with a coach? I'd think working with a coach (assuming you spend on-bike time with her), would shorten the learning curve.......maybe a little slip, SK?

[latelatebloomer]

Great thread. The first month on my road bike (still in my first year), I rode brave and happy and stayed upright until beginner's luck ran out. It ran out on May 15! :rolleyes: And then I started to be realistic about how I had not ridden a bike since I was a a child, or done anything else that required any athletic skill orfitness. I am just now seeing how much I have to learn about my balance and ALL the road skills that others seem to take for granted. When I see DH ride no-hands for fun, I just want to cry! I'm still FORCING myself to ride one-handed to signal. (And I make myself signal even if I'm the only human being for miles, just to practice.) So I guess I"m solidly in that awkward stage of learning how much I have to learn.

But those moments of feeling free and strong make it worth hanging in there.

[Adventure Girl]

BTW I have never passed Thom on his motorcycle. It was three other guys that I have passed on three different rides. :p Yes, I'm counting.During the DMD, Robert and I had to REALLY work to catch you on that long stretch of road with a few twists. We were on an 1800cc motorcycle. And you were on.... Fluffy!:D

We have an intercom system on the bike, so we can talk to each other. When we were chasing you down, Robert said, "Man, she's haulin' a$$"!

[velogirl]

it is much easier to find mountain biking clinics than road clinics, it seems),

because he said he learned most of what he knows about bike handling from mountain biking (and also from riding BMX bikes as a kid).

I don't think there are more mtn bike clinics. It's just that they're easier to find. There will often be mtn bike clinics associated with larger races. And most mtn bike clinics are marketed to the more recreational riders (not the racers).

For road clinics, there are TONS all over the country. However, most are advertised through race-oriented organizations (even if they're not just race clinics). Check the website of local coaches or coaching organizations or clubs. Ask at your LBS.

Most recreational road riders don't understand the importance of learning skills, while most recreational mtn bikers do it because they realize that they can't improve unless they do (learn skills).

BTW, I bet Jeremy never took a mtn bike or bmx clinic. But you mentioned that he learned his skills as a kid. That's a very telling statement. Children are much more natural learners when it comes to anything that involves risk (like cycling). He attributes his skills to riding mtb & bmx, but the reality of it is that if he'd had a road bike as a kid, he'd probably learn the same skills. Kids are fabulous learners.

[SadieKate]

A steeper learning curve with a coach? I'd think working with a coach (assuming you spend on-bike time with her), would shorten the learning curve.......maybe a little slip, SK?I guess it depends on what you put on the Y and X axis of your chart. For me, success is at the top of the chart and time/distance is across the bottom.

[CyclChyk]

TYGAB- you are not alone. I too ride like you. Brake on down hills, easiest gear up hills; focus on staying upright........... I'm turning into one giant bruise (not to mention the road rashes)......

Boy oh boy do I feel dumb. Pick up a water bottle while riding?? And the bottle be on the ground?? And I'm guessing you guys mean to do it and not fall over and go BOOM??? Yeh ok, I can tell you that's something I'll NEVER do.

I have my work cut out for me. And VELO, if you are ever in GA please let me know because I really need help. Steer the bike with my hips?? Wow I'm way more of a novice than I realized. The fear/timid thing; thats me. The non-athletic life history; me too. Geez..... you guys are really depressing me.:(

[SadieKate]

In what issue should I look for this article?Eureka! October 2006. The cover has Floyd in yellow.

[Adventure Girl]

In what issue should I look for this article?

Eureka! October 2006. The cover has Floyd in yellow.Did you notice that SK answered her own question here?

[Adventure Girl]

Did you notice that SK answered her own question here?Yes. I noticed that!:D

[Kano]

I have my work cut out for me. And VELO, if you are ever in GA please let me know because I really need help. Steer the bike with my hips?? Wow I'm way more of a novice than I realized. The fear/timid thing; thats me. The non-athletic life history; me too. Geez..... you guys are really depressing me.:(


Don't feel depressed, CyclChyk! I don't plan to ever play with that water bottle trick either. But, steering with your hips -- you're probably doing that unconsciously, like I discovered when I paid attention after reading that earlier today! Then I tried deliberately doing it -- all it takes is a shift of weight, lean your butt a bit left or right, and wow, the bike follows! It's remarkably easy to do, hard to think about doing.

Now, I may not be doing what Velo teaches exactly, but I was sort of exxagerating to myself to get the sense of it, you know? I'd probably never REALLY do the silly feeling stuff I was doing today where there was no one to see!

Karen in Boise

[tygab]

In what issue should I look for this article?

It was online but the link is deactivated. I read it online first then bought the mag cause I wanted to see the full thing. :(

http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6610,s1-21-141-15058-1,00.html

[SadieKate]

Yes. I noticed that!:DDid anyone notice that AG is being a smartass?

[SadieKate]

Did anyone notice that AG is being a smartass?
Why, yes I did. No one else would answer my question.

[tygab]

I had no idea this thread was taking off the way it did, thanks for all the comments!

It is reassuring to hear that the learning process is continuing for even the experienced cyclists, at least for the most part. I think taking one of these clinics or finding a coach might be a really good idea.

In reality, I had one big goal this year (the PMC), with several implied goals since I had not biked before (get base fitness, learn general riding in road traffic, learn clipless, learn my bike etc etc). Once it was over I could take stock of what I learned from March to August/now, and now that I know this is something I want to continue and improve, this kind of feedback is very helpful in understanding how I can make progress. I guess, at a very high level, this thread could have been titled "what are good things to learn to be a better cyclist" and gotten similar responses. Road riding is a lot more than what I learned as a kid riding a 10 speed.

[random sidebar - I used to ride my ten speed around our neighborhood cul de sacs imagining I was a famous bike racer. This was before I knew anything about the TdF or other races, but I knew racing existed. I had a peugeot hat that I wore regularly, the ones that had the small brims. If there'd been any competitive options for me as a kid in my small town I probably would have loved that.]

It's funny some of the things mentioned here I'd stumbled upon myself, such as getting way back in my seat for uphills, shifting early and 'pacing' my gears. I hated hills at first, because I was lacking either of these techniques. Once I somehow sorted this out I actually got half decent at going up them. Other things mentioned here I don't know if I've innately done or not, like using the hips to turn thing. But it's all very interesting to realize that the opportunity for learning is great, and someone's riding can really benefit from making a bit of effort to learn.

[BeeLady]

SadieKate if u go to the Bicycling Mag website and put "Jeremy" in the search the article will come up. Don't know what issue it is hard copy wise.

[SadieKate]

Thanks. See post #35 before Adventure Girl's wiseacre remarks.

[kelownagirl]

Boy oh boy do I feel dumb. Pick up a water bottle while riding?? And the bottle be on the ground?? And I'm guessing you guys mean to do it and not fall over and go BOOM??? Yeh ok, I can tell you that's something I'll NEVER do.
(


I'm still working on getting my water bottle out of the holder, drinking, and putting it back while riding. And all that without getting my heart rate up so high, I need to take a break...

[CyclChyk]

I'm still working on getting my water bottle out of the holder, drinking, and putting it back while riding.

I can do this now!!! But only if I am going real slow, on a straight stretch, and ONLY with my left hand. Even tho I am right handed I feel very wobbly trying to go for the bottle with my right hand.

I have so much to learn.

[aicabsolut]

This is an aside, but I want to share:

I was driving home the other day during rush hour and I get to this intersection where a bike is in the left lane (going to turn left), waiting for the light to change. It's a little bit uphill there, and this guy is clipped in, at one of the busiest intersections around, standing up, COMPLETELY STILL, just chilling. Bike wheel turned a little left, butt sticking up in the air, no wobbles, no rocking the wheel around, no slow crawl forward. Completely still. Light changes, off he goes. I hate him....only because I want to be him. :(

[CyclChyk]

I can't begin to phathom that kind of balance....... only in my dreams.

[Brandy]

This is an aside, but I want to share:

I was driving home the other day during rush hour and I get to this intersection where a bike is in the left lane (going to turn left), waiting for the light to change. It's a little bit uphill there, and this guy is clipped in, at one of the busiest intersections around, standing up, COMPLETELY STILL, just chilling. Bike wheel turned a little left, butt sticking up in the air, no wobbles, no rocking the wheel around, no slow crawl forward. Completely still. Light changes, off he goes. I hate him....only because I want to be him. :(

I want to master track stands...only because I'm so lazy that it would save me from unclipping. :p

[RoadRaven]

:D

Pssst...

:cool:

SK and AG... you guys crack me up!!!


:) :D :) :D :)

[Veronica]

I've been thinking about this thread for awhile.

These are changes I've noticed in my riding over the years.

Snot Rockets - at first I would stop every 10 minutes and blow my nose with a tissue. That got old, so with Thom's encouragement I started doing snot rockets. At first, I'd get it all over me, and I'd have to coast to do it. Then I mastered the technique, but still needed to coast. Now, I can maintain whatever speed I'm at and generally it goes where it is supposed to.

Water Bottle Reach - at first I would need to coast and look at the bottle. Then it became coast and grab the bottle w/o looking. Now it is keep pedaling and grab the bottle.

Descents - the first time I took a corner faster than I wanted to on a descent was eye opening. Nothing bad happened! And I just sort of took off from there. I'm cautious on roads I don't know. But I don't ride the brakes. And I can't really explain what I do. I know I look through the corner as far as I can. I use most of the lane if I am doing the speed limit (or exceeding it!) Almost passed another motorcycle today. I try to NEVER go out of my lane on a descent. The motorcycle did. I'm not perfect and it happens sometimes. I learn from the mistakes. I haven't crashed yet. :D

Brake Quick Release - The first time this didn't get closed, I stopped and had to think about what could be wrong. Today when I realized it was open, I reached forward as I was riding and closed it. I just knew that was why I had no front brake.

Tool Usage - I am often by myself in the middle of nowhere. I never considered myself especially mechanically inclined. The day I broke my front derailleur, Thom was home and could come pick me up. But before he got to me, I had almost completely removed the broken derailleur. Why? because if he hadn't been home, I'd have been stuck ten miles from home with the choice of walk or find a fix.

I know I tend to reflect on my rides, both on what was good and what was not so good. I didn't get here by reading a book or someone telling me what to do in various situations. Every mile I ride adds to my wisdom. :)

V.

[velogirl]

You're a very wise woman, Veronica.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I can do this now!!! But only if I am going real slow, on a straight stretch, and ONLY with my left hand. Even tho I am right handed I feel very wobbly trying to go for the bottle with my right hand.

I have so much to learn.

You're supposed to do it while riding backwards.



;)

[CyclChyk]

Oh lisalisa - what are you trying to do to me girl?? :D

I like your advice of "just do it!" MUCH better! :p

Oh and are SNOT ROCKETS what I think they are ???? My god it would be all over my face!

[DebW]

Ah, we finally get to the guts of this discussion. Thanks for putting it so well, Veronica.


No man's wisdom extends beyond his experience...

... Every mile I ride adds to my wisdom. :)


To learn new skills, we have to put ourselves in the situation to learn and be willing to try. Those of us who don't ride with a group often aren't going to learn group-riding skills, even though we may be very skilled riders otherwise. I can't do trackstands because I've never bothered to go out and practice (there's no guarantee I'd learn if I practiced, but I certainly won't learn if I don't try). Some things we pick up through years of riding, like grabbing the water bottle while pedaling or high-speed pot-hole avoidance, but other things (maybe snot-rockets) take more conscious effort. I've never learned the snot-rocket, so it either goes on my gloves or I pull a bandana from my pocket and wipe while riding. I can put a gloved hand on my front tire to remove road debris if something gets stuck on the tire. But I'm not skilled at 50 mph descents because I never ride hills long enough to hit that speed. I do think that maybe those of us who started riding in the 70s and 80s had a learning edge over those who start riding now, because with downtube shifters you were forced to take either hand off the bar frequently so you immediately got comfortable riding one-handed either side.

[BeeLady]

Re Water Bottles: are we talking about a) taking them out of our WB holders while riding or b) picking them up off the ground while riding by?

I've been out trying to pick them up off the ground while riding by -- gonna take a lot more practice for that and that's on a "girl's" bike w/ dropped top tube. Don't even think I'll practice it with a regular top tube.

So, real question is, how can I get five-year's experience in six months?;)

[GLC1968]

So, real question is, how can I get five-year's experience in six months?;)

THIS is why the article was so interesting! The guy (Jeremy) needed to learn quick...otherwise, he was a danger to himself and his fellow riders. I think that for most of us, it doesn't happen so quickly...so we have time to develop our skills at a normal pace. How many women (or men, for that matter) decide to start riding and within 3 months are riding with the 'A' riders at a pace of 20mph? I'm guessing not many! Yes, they are out there and those are the people that need to develop their skills at an accelerated pace (steeply...like SK said!). The rest of us can work on it as we build up our miles.

And seriously, for those of you wondering...don't let the inability to pick a water bottle off the ground keep you from riding on the roads or with a group! Just pick a group that suits your pace/skill level. I'm a solid intermediate rider and I cannot pick up a bottle from the groud. I would not join an advanced group ride not just because the fear of being dropped (which really doesn't bother me) but more because I'm not skilled enough to hang with a paceline at 25 mph. I want to develop better handling skills because I want to race one day, but until that day, I'm sure as hell going to do what I can to improve on my own. :)

[BeeLady]

Good points GLC - I'm sure not a threat to any 25 mph pace line.

A skill I would like to improve is no hands while in my clips (which I would never do around any other rider!). Made progress today but have to be on smooth pavement and start with feet in 3 and 9 position, get balanced and only then can I pedal. Use to be able to do this easily in the 70s, but then wasnt clipless (nor did I use clips).

I still haven't gotten endos for my flat bar and my hands get numb after awhile so this to me is more necessary than picking up a water bottle from the ground.

[cherinyc]

But, steering with your hips -- you're probably doing that unconsciously, like I discovered when I paid attention after reading that earlier today!
Karen in Boise

ummmm unconsciously? :eek:
I surely hope not - that could be REALLY dangerous. Of course if you are unconscious, I hope that something is steering you (the hips will do).
:D :p

[tygab]

And seriously, for those of you wondering...don't let the inability to pick a water bottle off the ground keep you from riding on the roads or with a group! Just pick a group that suits your pace/skill level. I'm a solid intermediate rider and I cannot pick up a bottle from the groud. I would not join an advanced group ride not just because the fear of being dropped (which really doesn't bother me) but more because I'm not skilled enough to hang with a paceline at 25 mph. I want to develop better handling skills because I want to race one day, but until that day, I'm sure as hell going to do what I can to improve on my own. :)

Most certainly I agree. I am not letting my inability to do all kinds of things keep me from riding, nor should anyone else. I am just realizing that I don't know what I don't know... and this article made me think about it, as of course has this board. My 3rd group ride ever was with oh, 4000 others give or take, and in hindsight I learned a lot on that ride. I knew it'd be a lot of people and so I rode pretty defensively anyway, but I learned a lot just by watching others and being out in the masses. Maybe that level of immersion training isn't the best idea, but it's what I did and now group riding seems pretty manageable whether its 3 or 100. (Well, except pacelines and formations, that's another level).

All these answers have given me ideas though. I have never done parking lot drills and it sounds like a great idea - the zigzag, the braking, the figure 8s, all of it. Sure, most of you stumbled upon these things through riding a lot, but by your telling me I can have some ideas of things to try that will help my cycling without having to stumble upon all of it. I will probably try some of this on my old sturdy mtn bike, first, then progress to the road bike.

I'm sure I'll still make my own discoveries too, and I won't come back and say "hey how come none of you ever told me about <XYZ>." :D I realize that's not how it works. But the fun part is sharing the knowledge, so I appreciate all the input that's come out in the thread.

[GLC1968]

OK, I had to come back here and post about this. When Velogirl mentioned that we steer with our hips, I thought to myself "well, of course...sure...that makes sense" but I never actually thought about it while on the bike, until last night. On my commute home (in the parking lot before I left), I decided to try paying attention to how I was steering. Small swerves were done with my hips, but when I needed to turn big, I used my handlebars. So then I tried to not use my handlebars. I gripped my bike a little harder with my legs and leaned into the turns more. It was like a big ole lightbulb went on in my head!! :eek: OMG...so THIS is how the guys I ride with make those turns so tightly? The rest of the ride home, I found myself looking forward to turns where there were no traffic lights so that I could practice turning at a good clip. Then I did the same thing coming in this morning. Turns are fun...who knew?! :rolleyes:

One small comment and I've just made a sizable leap in my cycling abilities!! :D Man, I love TE!! (and special thanks to Velogirl for stating what seemed to be the obvious...but in reality, isn't! :p )

[velogirl]

OK, I had to come back here and post about this. When Velogirl mentioned that we steer with our hips, I thought to myself "well, of course...sure...that makes sense" but I never actually thought about it while on the bike, until last night. On my commute home (in the parking lot before I left), I decided to try paying attention to how I was steering. Small swerves were done with my hips, but when I needed to turn big, I used my handlebars. So then I tried to not use my handlebars. I gripped my bike a little harder with my legs and leaned into the turns more. It was like a big ole lightbulb went on in my head!! :eek: OMG...so THIS is how the guys I ride with make those turns so tightly? The rest of the ride home, I found myself looking forward to turns where there were no traffic lights so that I could practice turning at a good clip. Then I did the same thing coming in this morning. Turns are fun...who knew?! :rolleyes:

One small comment and I've just made a sizable leap in my cycling abilities!! :D Man, I love TE!! (and special thanks to Velogirl for stating what seemed to be the obvious...but in reality, isn't! :p )


Steering (slight changes in direction) and cornering are actually different skills. For cornering, we use a skill called counter-steering: outside leg down and weighted (you're standing on it), inside arm pushing the bar, bike leaning into the turn, body leaning back out, outside thigh pushing into the saddle nose, and looking (with your head, not just your eyes) around the turn. Oh, and I also recommend leading with your inside knee although some folks teach that you grab the top tube with your inside knee. Much easier to do than describe.

The only time we actually use the bar to steer or corner is at very low speed -- under 7mph (ie mountain bike switchbacks or something similar).

[GLC1968]

outside leg down and weighted (you're standing on it), inside arm pushing the bar, bike leaning into the turn, body leaning back out, outside thigh pushing into the saddle nose, and looking (with your head, not just your eyes) around the turn.

That's a mouthful! ;) Actually, as I stand here at my desk trying to imagine what you are saying...I *think* this is what I was doing with my bike this morning. The position that your description puts me into feels like what I felt like on my bike when I really pushed the turn. I did grip the tube with my inside knee, but I can see how having it out would be a benefit as well. Very interesting!

I can definitely say that doing this I felt more like my bike was an extension of me...or that I was DRIVING my bike and not just sitting on it while it moved. :D

[velogirl]

I can definitely say that doing this I felt more like my bike was an extension of me...or that I was DRIVING my bike and not just sitting on it while it moved. :D

That's what I try to teach folks, as corny and zen as it may sound. We want to ride "with" our bikes, not "on" our bikes.

[telegirl]

:confused:

As a road rider/mountain biker/future cyclocrosslass, I have to say that mountain biking has GREATLY improved my road handling skills. HOWEVER, I just can't seem to get the 'cornering' thing. I think I am the only mountain biker on earth who dreads going downhill - mainly because of cornering. Bikehubby's trails are very switchbacky (is that a word?), windy, full of close trees and I love them....uphill. I can do uphill switchbacks, but downhill???? Dab-city. Slam on Brakes County. Endo when brakes work too good State. I get the feeling that Rocky might rather do the corners himself and just have me wait at the bottom.

Why is this cornering thing so difficult to grasp???

And I think that Velo has a great point, way back at the beginning....we just all hop on a bike and if we remain upright, then we can ride! Woohoo! But the more I get into it, the more I realize that I need to know more!

[velogirl]

Fear is a big limiter in sports. When we go faster (ie dwnhill) it will hurt more if we crash. We feel out of control. We don't trust (ourselves, others, the trail or road, our equipment). As adults, we're taught to be in control, so releasing control in a situation like this is difficult. You're not alone in your fear of descending. That's probably the #1 skill that I teach.

In order to learn to descend correctly, you need to learn to corner first. Descending switchbacks or a curvy road is the same skill as cornering. We use counter-steering (described above). I recently participated in a mtn bike clinic with Marla Streb (yep, I'm name dropping) and she describes it as body-bike separation. In order to engage a larger contact patch on the tire, you have to lean the bike (a lot), but to do that you have to counter with your weight on the opposite side. One of the best ways to learn this is to practice on a flat field or lot. Once you feel okay on the grass, progress to dirt or gravel (still flat). Then, you have to consciously learn to do this as you descend. Eventually, it will become intuitive and you won't have to think about it.

[spokewench]

Nice Description Velo girl. Another thing that I finally learned on corning on a mountain bike a few years ago - it was kind of a zen experience - is that especially in a tight corner - you need to go into the corner wide and then it is easier to come around. I used to try to cut the corner too tight and then run out of room going round. Let's see if I can describe it - putting my front tire practically to the burm on the turn and then turning the rest of the bike.

Don't know if that was much of a description but it sure helped me once I figured it out.

[telegirl]

Me = Jealous, Velo-

Fear is a bit limiter for me - For some reason, I'm not a big fan of pain....and then the last time I was at the ER after mountain biking, they had a group of people come in and talk to me about the signs of abuse....but they wouldn't let me press charges against my mountain bike.....

Those are good points, Velo and spokewench - And I think it is practice, practice, practice, but sometimes, I feel like I have reached a plateau on skills and just need someone to push me off....Um, so, Velo.....how about coming out to ride Vermont trails... maybe slip in a workshop or three....:D

[BeeLady]

Could this be "Jeremy?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI7GEE36uS8:eek:

[HappyAnika]

Think what VeloGirl said in the beginning is a really good point, about how we wouldn't try to drive a car without instruction, so why would we do that on a bike? I have also been reflecting upon my first season as a new rider and thinking about what I want to accomplish next season. Improving my handling skills is at the top of the list, primarily for descending (which I love and I want to do it even faster) and obstacle avoidance (the bike paths, I'm sorry "multi-use" paths, can get very crowded). I was so shocked when I first got my bike and tried reaching for my water bottle (in the cage) and I could barely take my hand off the bars. I figured since I could do this on my mtb (not that I'm a mtb rider), I should be able to do it straight away on my road bike. WRONG! I've worked up to being able to do it while pedaling, next I'd like to be able to do it with my right hand as well. Oh, and the snot thing is funny, my nose runs at the slightest bit of wind or cold, so I'm the kleenex queen. I was so happy when I learned how to reach in my jersey pocket for my tissue and blow my nose while keeping pace. There isn't really enough of it for a snot rocket, but often too much for the glove alone . . .

The most impressive thing I've ever seen on a bike was in the TDF when one of the riders was having a problem with his rear derailleur. The mechanic pulled up in the car on his left side, reached through the rider and his top tube and around to adjust the derailleur, meanwhile the rider could not touch the car, so he maintained his hands on his bars, all at around 25 mph, OMG. :eek: