Venting - way OT & alittle wordy.... [Archive] - Women's Cycling Discussion Forums

CyclChyk

09-17-2006, 05:49 PM

Unruly kids usually tick me off, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should be ticked at the parent(s). Please let me apologize up front if I offend any kid lovers out there but.................

Why do parents let their kids play/run/ride in the path of traffic?? Not highway traffic, but for example:
1. roads in your subdivision - so just because you and your kids live here means you don't have to get out of the street when a car comes by??
I live here too. Why do I have to stop my car and inch around you/your kids when I have the right of way and you saw me coming a 1/4 mile away??

2. greenways/bike paths - so you got 6 kids (or 3, or 4, or 1, whatever) cuz you like having kids but do you gotta let them ride their bikes/trikes, skates/scooters, etc, where ever they want (sometimes 50 yards ahead of you where you couldn't do squat to prevent them from getting hurt should they smack into something/someone), so they are in my lane, and no matter where I move to they keep coming at me head on cuz they are too dumb to get out of the way?? Or have you taught them to play chicken with the bikers??

3. stores - I realize leashes for kids are a bit cruel these days, but really, do your kids have to run down the isles and whine so loudly when you say "no Honey, we have Lucky Charms; you don't need Captain Crunch". Really, you won't get thrown in jail if you teach your kid some discipline.

Geez, If let my dogs behave the way some of these kids do, they'd be taken away from me and I'd be fined out the Waa-Zoo (whatever that is).

Ok. I've vented. I think I'll go eat some peanut butter and then I'll feel much better.

Thanks for listening and again, I apologize if I've offended anyone. It wasn't my intention.

NJBikeGal

09-17-2006, 05:57 PM

Think of it as practice for that big race...you'll be so much better than everyone else at weaving in and out of the pack!!!

Or you could think of it as a different type of practice and see how many you can bump into without falling over!! :D

snapdragen

09-17-2006, 05:59 PM

I must be lucky, the neighbor kids blocked the street once - their Dad came out and gave them all h*ll! They never did it again.:rolleyes:

I don't have a problem with kid leashes either. At least it's a way for the parent to keep an eye on their precious. :p

Brandy

09-17-2006, 06:19 PM

3. stores - I realize leashes for kids are a bit cruel these days, but really, do your kids have to run down the isles and whine so loudly when you say "no Honey, we have Lucky Charms; you don't need Captain Crunch". Really, you won't get thrown in jail if you teach your kid some discipline.

Geez, If let my dogs behave the way some of these kids do, they'd be taken away from me and I'd be fined out the Waa-Zoo (whatever that is).

Ok. I've vented. I think I'll go eat some peanut butter and then I'll feel much better.
.

Okay, okay...I'll admit I'm a mom and I know that you said that you don't mean to offend, but I have to butt in here. Kids are kids...they don't always have control of their emotions and shouldn't be expected to act like miniature adults who do. Maybe you're better off sticking to dogs. :D

One more thing...I always try to withhold judgement of moms and their kids in stores. You never know what kind of day that mom or those kids have had and why they are acting the way that they are. Even the best behaved children have off days, just like we do as adults. I've been there done that with a tired, hungry, bored or just plain cranky child who just doesn't want to be there shopping at that moment. Next time give the mom a sympathetic smile...believe me...she's probably mortified and just trying to get her shopping done as quickly as possible so she can get out of there.

Veronica

09-17-2006, 06:39 PM

Ahhh... but it is important to teach approriate behavior for various situations. I talk about that a lot with my students. What is appropriate with your friends and at home, is not always right for the classroom.

Asking kids to be polite is not asking them to be minature adults. It's expecting them to be considerate of others. If a child is having such a bad day that they are running and screaming up and down the aisles because they are emotional, maybe they should be home taking a nap. Otherwise it's just bad behavior and bad parenting to not correct the behavior.

We wonder what's happened to our society? We don't teach and require polite behavior, so we don't get it.

Children who are using bike paths need to be taught to ride on the correct side. That's for everyone's safety, including their own. We had to replace Thom's bike because of a kid who was not on the correct side, blind corner, head on collision, going slowly enough that no one was hurt, but it toasted his frame. Little kid bikes are heavy! Guess who paid for the replacement? Not the kid's family and he was certainly at fault.

Veronica - who has an awesome class this year! :p Even though they burst out laughing the first time someone passed gas.

snapdragen

09-17-2006, 06:45 PM

Veronica - who has an awesome class this year! :p Even though they burst out laughing the first time someone passed gas.

:D Well, they are kids after all!:D

admit it, you snickered too.....

salsabike

09-17-2006, 06:45 PM

Maybe you're better off sticking to dogs. :D

Don't think CyclChyk deserved that. And I agree with Veronica. I know plenty of parents who agree with that too.

Brandy

09-17-2006, 06:50 PM

Ahhh... but it is important to teach approriate behavior for various situations. I talk about that a lot with my students. What is appropriate with your friends and at home, is not always right for the classroom.

Asking kids to be polite is not asking them to be minature adults. It's expecting them to be considerate of others. If a child is having such a bad day that they are running and screaming up and down the aisles because they are emotional, maybe they should be home taking a nap. Otherwise it's just bad behavior and bad parenting to not correct the behavior.

We wonder what's happened to our society? We don't teach and require polite behavior, so we don't get it.

Sometimes your very happy children turn into little monsters halfway through a shopping trip and there's nothing that you can do but hurry up and get it done as quickly as possible. I agree that children should be taught to be polite, but at the same time...they are kids and no matter what you've taught them, sometimes they'll have have a bad day/hour/minute, most always in public, and always in front of judgemental strangers who don't have kids.

snapdragen

09-17-2006, 06:56 PM

Don't think CyclChyk deserved that. And I agree with Veronica. I know plenty of parents who agree with that too.

One being my sister - who is an excellent mom if I do say so myself. If either my niece or nephew started to throw a conniption, she'd leave whatever she was doing, shopping, whatever, and take them home. They learned pretty quickly - if I misbehave in public, we go home and I don't have any fun.

Trek420

09-17-2006, 06:57 PM

kids these days. kids and dogs.

Take my neighbors kids, puhleese.

The littlest one wants a dog in the worst way, his response? Tease my (lab/pitbull mix) dog.

The first time I caught him throwing dirt clods at my window .... Mae barking like a nutso dog then I realise what is happening and storm out like Old Man Mcfeerson "you kids get off my lawn" picture Trek shaking her cane. Dad came out we discussed what's happening. Dad says it'll never happen again.

Flash foward one day Mae and I are going shopping, Mae's in my car and the kid comes up to the fence and is barking at the dog through the fence (Mae is in the car hee hee) I get out, very nicely but "you see I just observed this...." Dad "it'll never happen again"

He really seems sincere.

A couple weeks ago there's a party at there place Mae and I are back from a walk at least 3 of the kids come running full speed at Mae "Aieeeee, lookit the cute puppy does she bite?"

wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute kids.

I've talked to the Dad "you see the pattern is if your kid teases my dog but it's ok, dog's behind the fence so he teases the dog again but it's ok, dog is inside the house so he teases the dog again, it's ok, dog's behind the fence an so on. Then one day I'll be out walking the dog and here's your kid right there the kid who has been teasing Mae and we'll both be shocked "why'd she do....?"

I've emphasised I like kids, I would like Mae to like kids, I want his kids to learn safe behavior around dogs, don't want anyone hurt or even scared if she barks.

My sense honestly is this is the youngest kid and he gets teased so animals are what he can tease. But I can't allow him near Mae because I can't have her not like kids.

Brandy

09-17-2006, 06:57 PM

jobob

09-17-2006, 07:02 PM

Yep, I've come across parents whom I wish stuck with dogs.

And dog owners whom I wish stuck with pet rocks :D

Brandy

09-17-2006, 07:05 PM

Don't think CyclChyk deserved that. And I agree with Veronica. I know plenty of parents who agree with that too.

When you have to state in your post that you're sorry if anyone is offended or that offending isn't your intention...you pretty much know you're going to offend some people and you should expect some heated replies.

jobob

09-17-2006, 07:14 PM

Well, I've been offended by unruly kids and parents who won't do anything about them, so we can call it even. :D

snapdragen

09-17-2006, 07:38 PM

Well, I've been offended by unruly kids and parents who won't do anything about them, so we can call it even. :D

Yes! If I hear another "Sunshine, you're making mommy very sad. You really are making me very very sad" while Sunshine is flailing about the grocery store isle at full volume, I may demand parental licensing.

snapdragen

09-17-2006, 07:38 PM

Yay for perfect parents...I must be doing it all wrong. Society needs to watch out for these kids I'm raising. :rolleyes:

There is always time to learn.

Brandy

09-17-2006, 07:41 PM

There is always time to learn.

Absolutely. Maybe all of the people without kids could get together and charge the big bucks to school all of us horrible parents. :D

snapdragen

09-17-2006, 07:44 PM

Absolutely. Maybe all of the people without kids could get together and charge the big bucks to school all of us horrible parents. :D

Good. Let's start right now. The first step is admitting you have a problem.

SadieKate

09-17-2006, 07:44 PM

Jones

09-17-2006, 07:48 PM

I agree, kids should be well behaved at all times, however, my neighbors, all adults sometimes play football in the road and drivers have to wait for the play to finish before they move to the side and let traffic pass.

Kids are not the only ones being rude on multi-use paths. I have had plenty of rude adults blocking the path, veering into my way and failing to yield the right of way.

The grocery store thing I just don't get. On the one hand I think grocery shopping with my daughters is a great time to teach them about nutrition and often have them searching for the bread with out high fructose corn syrup. Because I won't by "junk" there is a fair amount of whining however, the first time my daughter went into full melt down at the store I immediately brought her home with out my purchases and do not understand why parents don't so something about their screaming, crying kids in stores and (my favorite for kids behaving badly) restaurants. A little action on the part of the parents now could save everyone huge hassles in the future.

I just have to say that no matter how well or badly behaved children are they are human and nothing like raising pets.
Jones

Kitsune06

09-17-2006, 07:56 PM

Absolutely. Maybe all of the people without kids could get together and charge the big bucks to school all of us horrible parents. :D

Possibly, but for most of the population, it takes more effort to *not* breed than *to do so* so maybe it should be a situation like bike commuting, etc... gov't grants for not having children.
6 billion people on earth, people. When do we say 'when'?

Further, yeah, I want to *die* every time some teenageish mother is whining at her kid "Stop (doing x, y, and z) to (your brother/sister/that poor dog/cat/stranger), sweetymushypie, you're making mommy sad." ...when the kid is really, really young.
When they're younger than, say 10, everything in the world is black and white, right or wrong. There need to be definite concequences (I'm not talking physical, but what's wrong with "You get over here right now and sit down. You're going to have an X minute time out when you get home." these days?!)
Making so-and-so sad is not a concequence for *the kid*. Only when they learn guilt will that be a proper punishment, and how can it be good to teach your children with guilt?

...then again, maybe I should just stick with dogs and cats. At least when they act up, I can spray them with the water bottle and tell them "NO!" in a good, authoritative tone, without worrying about paying for therapy later.

Tiffanie

09-17-2006, 08:24 PM

Wow. Bitter much? Why do you have any more right than children?

donnambr

09-17-2006, 10:49 PM

lph

09-17-2006, 11:51 PM

Okay... heated topic, and here comes my 2 øre.

(btw, I've never been particularly fond of or good with kids in general, but I have a 9 year old son whom I adore more than anything. Even my bike ;) )

Here goes. While I admire parents able to just abort a shopping trip when little so-and-so has a meltdown, I never felt I had the time to do the same. If I was there, in a store, with my son, you can be sure it was because we *really* needed to buy food that very day. Lord knows I'd have left him behind if I could.

So my solution when he went insane was just say: "Too bad. I know you don't like this, but we'll be here until I'm finished" and then just ignore him. When he was older and more whiny than meltdowny I told him in advance than whining for some sweets or an ice-cream would automatically insure that he did not get it. (Which led to some very sweet hints... "oh, wow, that ice-cream looks good. Doesn't it, mommy? *big smile*")

And I can honestly say that apart from the first few tantrums he did get it, and was in general very well behaved. And he still is! He's learned that adults respond to politeness, whether he really means it or not.

And whenever I hear childless friends griping about screaming kids in stores I remind them that that kid is screaming, not because he's a spoilt brat, but because he is NOT getting whatever he wants. It's all hell to listen to, but the parents are in fact disciplining the kid right in front of your nose, and because of it will behave better another time.

betagirl

09-18-2006, 03:29 AM

One being my sister - who is an excellent mom if I do say so myself. If either my niece or nephew started to throw a conniption, she'd leave whatever she was doing, shopping, whatever, and take them home. They learned pretty quickly - if I misbehave in public, we go home and I don't have any fun.

Perfect.

Ok here I come with my behaviorism hat. Yes, our good friends BF Skinner, Ivan Pavlov, Watson, etc. All behavior is learned, period, through various forms of reinforcement and punishment. That reinforcement can be subtle, to the point the parent doesn't even realize what they're doing. When you're dealing with children, they don't have the cognitive structures in place that adults do, so yes "kids will be kids." That also makes them very black and white in their thinking. But they learn from parents, watching other kids get away or not get away with things, other parents, teachers, etc. how to act. A baby doesn't come into the world with these bad behaviors, so they come from somewhere. There are some genetic contributions, but it comes down to environment as to how those genetics are shaped.

I don't watch "Nanny 9-11" or whatever the heck it's called. But one day it was on and before I could change channels I saw the intro. The kids were crazy and yelling and mom was yelling and screaming right at them. Where did the kids learn that yelling and screaming was acceptable? Probably from mom. But she certainly was maintaining it. When it gets that bad, it becomes very difficult to get to the point the behavior stops. There's a little thing called an "extinction burst" where the kid (or adult for that matter) increases the intensity/duration/frequency of the behavior you're trying to stop. So the tantrums become exponentially worse for example. If mom or dad caves, the child learns "ok I need to have a complete meltdown to get what I want." Start the cycle again to try to stop the behavior, get to the extinction burst which will probably be even worse than the first one. Mom or dad caves....rinse and repeat. It's that extinction burst where a lot of parents can't take it, because it's really bad a lot of the time. While I can sit here and be scientific about it, I can certainly see why you'd want to give in.

Of course I've simplified humans down to behaviorism theory. But underneath all the layers of complexity of our lives, this is what is the cause of behavior, or lack of behavior. In my opinion anyway.

Dogmama

09-18-2006, 03:39 AM

I work at a major research university & one of my departments is Family Studies. Graduate students with children like to let them run wild in the offices. A secretary posted the following sign:

Unattended children will be given an espresso and a free puppy.

Veronica

09-18-2006, 04:25 AM

I've "had" 420 kids. :eek:

Like it or not a teacher is mom or dad for 6 hours a day. My "kids" are a little bit older, 8 - 10. I can definitely tell those who have been able to get mom and dad to cave with their behavior. They try it with me - and it gets them nowhere. It's easy for me to be consistent with the rules for 6.5 hours a day, even with 30 kids at a time. It's a lot harder to be that way 24 hours a day.

I'm not so judgemental of the parents with the wailing young kids - sub 4 years old. Anything can set them off! :)

It's the poor behavior of the older ones that really gets me, allowing them to play by running up and down aisles, pushing around adults, yelling at each other. Essentially playing as if they were outside. They are old enough to know what is appropriate to the setting.

Veronica - who did not laugh when the kid passed gas because she was doing read aloud and it was not appropriate.

Brandy

09-18-2006, 06:00 AM

I've "had" 420 kids. :eek:

Like it or not a teacher is mom or dad for 6 hours a day.

Not the same. At all.

Brandy

09-18-2006, 06:05 AM

Here goes. While I admire parents able to just abort a shopping trip when little so-and-so has a meltdown, I never felt I had the time to do the same. If I was there, in a store, with my son, you can be sure it was because we *really* needed to buy food that very day. Lord knows I'd have left him behind if I could.

So my solution when he went insane was just say: "Too bad. I know you don't like this, but we'll be here until I'm finished" and then just ignore him. When he was older and more whiny than meltdowny I told him in advance than whining for some sweets or an ice-cream would automatically insure that he did not get it. (Which led to some very sweet hints... "oh, wow, that ice-cream looks good. Doesn't it, mommy? *big smile*")

And I can honestly say that apart from the first few tantrums he did get it, and was in general very well behaved. And he still is! He's learned that adults respond to politeness, whether he really means it or not.

And whenever I hear childless friends griping about screaming kids in stores I remind them that that kid is screaming, not because he's a spoilt brat, but because he is NOT getting whatever he wants. It's all hell to listen to, but the parents are in fact disciplining the kid right in front of your nose, and because of it will behave better another time.

Thank you! I feel exactly the same way. Believe me, I don't enjoy shopping with three children in tow, it's not fun for them, it's not fun for me, and if I didn't HAVE to do it, I wouldn't! I honestly don't think that people will get it unless they've been there.

mimitabby

09-18-2006, 06:15 AM

Tater

09-18-2006, 06:36 AM

Ahhh... but it is important to teach approriate behavior for various situations. I talk about that a lot with my students. What is appropriate with your friends and at home, is not always right for the classroom.

Asking kids to be polite is not asking them to be minature adults. It's expecting them to be considerate of others. If a child is having such a bad day that they are running and screaming up and down the aisles because they are emotional, maybe they should be home taking a nap. Otherwise it's just bad behavior and bad parenting to not correct the behavior.

We wonder what's happened to our society? We don't teach and require polite behavior, so we don't get it.

Thank you for this, V. Proper behavior for various situations reminds me of my upbringing. If Mom or Dad said no, we couldn't have such and such, we shut up and let the subject drop. No meant no and further whining would not change their minds. We also knew not to haul a$$ down the aisles disturbing other shoppers, how rude. Look out if one of us had a "meltdown" in the store, 'cause Mom would leave the buggie and haul us out of the store.

Sure, kids will be kids, but that doesn't mean they can't be disciplined.

Tater with no tots by choice.

Veronica

09-18-2006, 06:39 AM

Not the same. At all.

I think that's what I said. Maybe it wasn't clear enough.

I can definitely tell when my students have had permissive parents who did not take the time to teach them how to polite and considerate of others. The world does not revolve around any of us. It is not really "all about me." It's all about ALL of us learning to get along. A parent who does not take responsibility for teaching that concept to their children, should never have become a parent.

Veronica

salsabike

09-18-2006, 07:21 AM

Not having children surely doesn't disqualify anyone from noticing some of what works and what doesn't work with respect to teaching kids how to deal well with the rest of the world. Everyone has access to the knowledge they gained watching their own parents raise them as well as different approaches they see used by friends and relatives. Thought that kind of "you have to be one to qualify" thinking went out with "You can't be a good drug counselor if you weren't a heroin addict first." Guess some people still believe that.

Having been a school psych for a chunk of years, I noticed a long time ago that by far the most disturbed and frightened/frightening kids I meet are not the ones from abusive homes but the ones from homes where the parents have abdicated and left their kids in control.

I don't think most people, childless or not, automatically judge when they see a whining, crying kid in a store (heck, I was one of those "I want that CANDY" kids myself. Come to think of it, sometimes I still am---although quieter). Kids whine, kids cry. The issue for most people, I think, is whether the parents are letting those kids ride roughshod on the people around them. And since we all share the same space, I think everyone has the right to weigh in on that one, and that all that info is genuinely worth considering. I really do.

SadieKate

09-18-2006, 08:28 AM

I am now reading Talk to the Hand, The Utter Bloody Rudeness of the World Today, or Six Good Reasons to Stay Home and Bolt the Door by our beloved Queen of Apostrophe, Lynne Truss. She states in her intro:

Once you leave behind such class concerns as how to balance peas on the back of a fork, all the important rules surely boil down to one: remember you are with other people, show some consideration.

I think permissive parents forget this basic rule in an effort to not squash their darlings' potential, forgetting that the rule teaches each of us about "I and Them." The little darlings instead learn that "I rules Them. Yes, I am not a parent myself but I've taken care of neighbors' children who had the rude awakening when under my care. It has been rather funny to get reports from parents about the children behaving themselves when with me.

mimitabby

09-18-2006, 09:04 AM

lph

09-18-2006, 09:57 AM

I have a cousin who deeply believed that she should never say no to her kids.
Well, those two girls were absolute monsters until they got to school
and their teachers trained them. The younger one was so bad that they had to take everything out of her room except a mattress because she would throw things to break them when she was mad.

For a while, it was NOT pleasant to be in that house. the sound of my cousin trying to reason
with a screaming kicking 5 year old was more than I could take.

Oh yes. My only nephew is the same age as my son, and stayed at home with his mother until school age. Which could have been just fine in the right setting, but they truly believed in treating him like an adult, reasoning with him no matter what, never raising their voices, plus they had hardly any contact with other children. Poor kid turned into Spoilt Devil Child and Lenin rolled into one. When my talkative, ultra-sociable, well-meaning son had to "be nice" to him at a birthday party it was almost more than he could take. And I freely admitted to him after they had left that yes, THAT was a very hard child to get along with, and yes, he behaved very badly.

Devil Child (sorry, the name stuck) has now turned nine, and is gradually entering the world of normal human people.

DebW

09-18-2006, 10:05 AM

Possibly, but for most of the population, it takes more effort to *not* breed than *to do so* so maybe it should be a situation like bike commuting, etc... gov't grants for not having children.
6 billion people on earth, people. When do we say 'when'?

I've often thought that miniature stop-cocks in the vas deferens installed before puberty would be a good solution. Gov't license (if they can require a marriage license, why not a breeding license?) to switch them to the "on" positiion, back off after conception, lifetime limit of 2-3. With the current population, the default needs to change.

lph

09-18-2006, 10:06 AM

I had two unruly sons. I did not let them run wild in any stores. Okay, we always let them try out all the bikes and stuff at toys R us.I figured that store was fair game!!
but in the grocery store, etc, they were firmly locked to me
at all times. That's also why i stopped at 2 children; I could hold one with each hand.
I did not allow them to harass animals of any kind.
It can be done, raising children to respect others. There's no excuse for the behavior you described. Now sometimes my kids were louder than one might like, and that's where I say kids will be kids.. Sometimes we'd just join them.

They were not allowed to play in the street. and we live on a dead end.

That just made me think about something - having my son has in general raised my tolerance for noise and running around. My son still runs around in the store, but now he's racing to get whatever I've sent him out to get, as fast as he can. He'll still tear down the hill afterwards zigzagging between other people, but that's because in his head he's Superman or somebody right then. I guess I might have found that annoying pre-kid.

So I understand a lot more of kids' basic need to burn off energy, but instead I try to focus on the things that are important to me. Don't WHINE. Ask properly if you want something. Be polite to strangers. Say thank-you. Never harass animals, not even the smallest ones, and don't approach dogs that are tied up. Stay out of the road. Watch out for cyclists ;)
(But by all means, go climb on the neighbours shed if you like as long as I can't see you... :D )

lph

09-18-2006, 10:08 AM

I've often thought that miniature stop-cocks ..

Um, shouldn't that be written the other way around? :D

DebW

09-18-2006, 10:15 AM

Um, shouldn't that be written the other way around? :D

Oh, didn't realize that word worked both ways... But no, it wouldn't stop the cocks, just the results.

Python

09-18-2006, 10:31 AM

OK. Here's my tuppenceworth from the UK.

As a child, I was taught very quickly how to behave, especially in public. Mum (or Dad) would warn me once, warn me a second time to behave and the third time I got a smack (same applied to my brother). Neither of us have ever been in any trouble of any kind. The thing was, we were taught right from wrong, sometimes we got smacked but we had two loving parents who always made time for us, which must have been difficult for them as they had their own shop and worked long hours, also they had me quite late on in life. My brother is six years old than I am.

By saying that, Dad would take us to school in the mornings, pick us up at lunchtime, Mum would be home with lunch waiting for us (my Aunt used to work in the shop too - she and my Uncle sadly weren't blessed with children), then Dad would take us back to school and pick us up when school finished. We were taught to respect other people and their property. Even at school, if we stepped out of line we got our hands belted with a strap called a Tawse. It hurt at the time, but taught us a lesson and there was very little trouble at school.

When my kids came along, I brought them up the same way, to know right from wrong and respect other people and their property. My daughter once played me up in a store really badly, so I spanked her there and then. She never did it again. One time when we were in a restaurant (she was about 6 years old at the time), as we were about to leave, the manageress came over with a bag of sweets for my daughter and complimented us on how well-behaved she was. My daughter was, of course, delighted with the sweets (candies I think you call them). Now she's a Mum herself, she and her husband are bringing my grandson up the same way - to know right from wrong. She's a stay-at-home Mum because she believes that's where Mum's should be especially when the kiddies are little (grandson's 9 months old:D )

There are too many parents nowadays who really couldn't care less what their kids get up to. We see a lot of that where I live. Three year olds shouting and cursing and use "F" and "C" words and the parents (or parent) just look on and don't pull them up for it, or the parent(s) are so drunk or drugged up, they don't even know what planet they're on, never mind their kids:mad:

I don't know what it's like over the pond, but we have an awful lot of schoolgirl pregnancies here. There has been far too much foisted on kids by the media, the liberal elite with their "don't discipline your kids" and the European Human Rights Act which virtually makes hooligans untouchable - and they know it.

Kids do need discipline, but it also needs to be tempered with a lot of love and patience, something that's sadly lacking for many kids nowadays:(

mimitabby

09-18-2006, 10:35 AM

There are too many parents nowadays who really couldn't care less what their kids get up to. We see a lot of that where I live. Three year olds shouting and cursing and use "F" and "C" words and the parents (or parent) just look on and don't pull them up for it, or the parent(s) are so drunk or drugged up, they don't even know what planet they're on, never mind their kids:mad:
:(

OR THE PARENTS THINK IT IS CUTE!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Bruno28

09-18-2006, 11:27 AM

Why do parents let their kids play/run/ride

Personally, I think they should be nailed to the floor indoors.

No, I don't have kids - but I do have a hammer and nails........have I gone too far????:D :D :D

snapdragen

09-18-2006, 11:34 AM

Personally, I think they should be nailed to the floor indoors.

No, I don't have kids - but I do have a hammer and nails........have I gone too far????:D :D :D

**snort**

just a bit.....:p

DebW

09-18-2006, 11:42 AM

Personally, I think they should be nailed to the floor indoors.

No, I don't have kids - but I do have a hammer and nails........have I gone too far????:D :D :D

Reminds me of a joke.

Kid: "Mommy, mommy why do I keep running around in circles?"
Mom: "Shut up or I'll nail your other foot to the floor."

[If that was in poor taste, I'll slink off to the corner and laugh quietly. I do have children, now grown, and I've never used nails on them.]

Tuckervill

09-18-2006, 11:42 AM

www.stophitting.com
Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishment to Love and Reason (http://www.alfiekohn.org/up/index.html)
http://www.naturalchild.org/

I don't believe in coddling, spoiling, back-talk, disrespect, running in the aisles, riding on the wrong side of the bike lane, or lack of discipline. I also don't believe adults always have it all together and I believe that children are one of the last classes of people that it's okay to disrespect, discriminate against and despise. I also do not believe in spanking/smacking/hitting/beating/corporal punishment.

My oldest child is 24, my youngest 12. Between the two, I evolved from a traditional, mainstream, spanking parent, to a non-spanking, child respecting, autonomy-granting one. The results have been the same--happy, healthy, responsible adults or near adults, with one glaring exception. My youngest son can never look back at his life and say I broke his trust by hitting him, and my oldest son can. That is something I will always regret.

My views now are very non-mainstream, and I have a rebuttal to almost every post in this thread, many of those rebuttals were developed and clarified through internet boards such as this one and reading up on the subject over the last 11 years. Since I've already BTDT, I won't debate them again. But I hope the links will help someone else see their children in a different way.

Karen

SadieKate

09-18-2006, 11:46 AM

Not at all (to the hammer and nails)! Bring 'em outdoors also -- at least sometimes. Hubby and I stop for dinner after our evening rides and sit outside. For some reason, the parents seem to think that sitting outdoors gives their children free rein to charge in and out of the fenced area, play on the fountain, trample the landscaping and play chase. Last week, Bubba finally gave up and yelled at a kid who was walking though the carefully landscaped petunias to get to the water in a fountain on top of a raised bed. It gets tougher and tougher to have a nice civilized meal in public. Restaurants have become awash in kids who think the world is McDonald's play land or older girls' butt cracks and thongs. Sigh.

slinkedog

09-18-2006, 11:48 AM

Okay, I am a mom of 4 kids, so I'm feeling the need to interject my opinion into a thread that seems to be dominated by non-parents. :)

I think someone else may have already made this point, but please realize that no one, no parent, no child is perfect. I understand the frustration with parents who don't mind their children. I get frustrated, too, sometimes. I hate it when my kids whine. They get reprimanded if they do it, and they usually don't, but since they lack the self-control skills of adults, sometimes they do whine.

I would dearly love to be able to leave the store when one of my kids decides to go postal in the produce section, but, most of the time, I have no recourse to take them home and come back and finish my shopping. Who will stay with them? What will we eat if I don't finish my grocery shopping? I imagine the same people who sneer at me as I try, while incredibly embarrassed, to get finished with upset children in tow, are the same ones who would sneer at me if I took those same kids to McDonald's in order to feed them because I couldn't finish my grocery shopping because of people sneering at me. ;)

We all have to share this world, and teaching my children that other people are precious and important is an ongoing lesson in our house. We're trying. Please be patient. We're not all finished yet.

Duck on Wheels

09-18-2006, 12:00 PM

First let me say that, however irritated I might become personally when kids go postal in my vicinity, I highly admire parents who steadfastly keep their cool, don't lash out, don't scream back, just calmly continue to say "No, you can't have a candy bar now" or whatever, and finish their shopping.

Second let me say that I do NOT have the same admiration for parents who let their kids do something truly dangerous, like playing in the street, without intervening.

Third, just to show how charming kids can be, here's the story my youngest (23) told when we came to his place for waffles this evening. As we arrived, he was putting away some gardening equipment -- mower, rake, and a wheelbarrow full of windfall apples. He said the neighborhood kids, on their way past, had asked him "Could we taste your apples?" Well, he's only renting, and had no intention of cooking up a tree-full of apples, so he said they could go ahead. They each took an apple or two, called out how tasty they were, and the littlest one trailing behind the others as they left said "Tusen takk for eplene!" (Thousand thanks for the apples). See how sweet kids can be?

Selkie

09-18-2006, 01:14 PM

Well, I've been offended by unruly kids and parents who won't do anything about them, so we can call it even. :D

Agree w/Veronica and Jo.

I believe that being a parent is the most important job in the world. Unfortunately, I see first hand the results of "having kids" and not "raising" them. I live in the land of "overprivileged" children who are endlessly indulged (materialistic) and told how they are not to blame for their bad behavior.

I don't think anyone is criticizing TE's moms, who no doubt are excellent parents.

My parents would have NEVER let us behave in an unruly manner, no matter what kind of day they or we were having. If we acted up, we knew there were consequences (a spanking). Therefore, we did not act up. My mom had FOUR (4) kids, and she was ill the entire time I was growing up. Regardless, she taught us manners and common courtesy.

There's a difference between spanking and beating a kid. Spanking definitely served as a deterrent in my family.

GLC1968

09-18-2006, 01:30 PM

While I don't like when kids are running wild and endangering themselves or others, I do recognize the difference between a parent who is embarassed or at least attempting control, and one who doesn't care.

Before I pass judgement and offer up the 'glares' that some of the mom's here are referring to, I always survey the parents as well as the kids. A mom who is clearly exasperated, doing her best, and at least trying to make peace absolutely does deserve our sympathy. A parent who is completely ignoring the situation (or even making it worse) does not. There is a difference.

Honestly (yes, I know it's not the same thing), as a pet owner, I'd expect the same courtesy. I have two young dogs/puppies that occasionally become a handful. Before some passerby tears into me about a barking dog, I'd appreciate if they noticed that I'm attempting to rectify the situation.

Common courtesy...all around...it goes a long way.

Brandy

09-18-2006, 01:30 PM

Thank you for posting this Tuckervill. Unfortunately, I doubt that many people will read the links, but at least it's out there.

www.stophitting.com
Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishment to Love and Reason (http://www.alfiekohn.org/up/index.html)
http://www.naturalchild.org/

I don't believe in coddling, spoiling, back-talk, disrespect, running in the aisles, riding on the wrong side of the bike lane, or lack of discipline. I also don't believe adults always have it all together and I believe that children are one of the last classes of people that it's okay to disrespect, discriminate against and despise. I also do not believe in spanking/smacking/hitting/beating/corporal punishment.

My oldest child is 24, my youngest 12. Between the two, I evolved from a traditional, mainstream, spanking parent, to a non-spanking, child respecting, autonomy-granting one. The results have been the same--happy, healthy, responsible adults or near adults, with one glaring exception. My youngest son can never look back at his life and say I broke his trust by hitting him, and my oldest son can. That is something I will always regret.

My views now are very non-mainstream, and I have a rebuttal to almost every post in this thread, many of those rebuttals were developed and clarified through internet boards such as this one and reading up on the subject over the last 11 years. Since I've already BTDT, I won't debate them again. But I hope the links will help someone else see their children in a different way.

Karen

DDH

09-18-2006, 02:31 PM

Let me say, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and their own ideas on how to raise children. The ways to raise them are as diverse as the society we live in. Does the way you raise your child make the way I raise mine wrong. No it does not. Our job as parents is to give our children the life skills they will need to go out into society and become healty, productive adult members.
I do not take my child out of the store when he doesn't get his way, because I don't believe it is okay for him to be able to disrupt the things I need to do or get done by his actions. When he was small, he had a fit, it happened twice I think. I told him I would not tolerate it and I would leave him sitting if he wanted to continue, he continued and as he did, I went around the corner peeking back at him to watch him. When he looked up and I was gone, well, he stopped quickly. When he called for me I was there. He quickly learned that I would continue what I needed to do regardless if he was having a fit or not. I think he was 2 or 3. He is 11 and he still tries my patience in the store at times, but he doesn't yell or scream or throw fits. He has gotten his share of spankings, but it is not given for every thing he does. He has gotten soap in his mouth plenty of times for a curse word or back talk. He doesn't do that very often either. I don't think it really matters what you do for punishment as long as it is consistant and as long as it is just, and most of all as long as they know you love them. I cannot remember the last time I had to spank my child, or put soap in his mouth. He is not perfect by any means, he does get fussed at quite at bit at times. He is well behaved in school and so far makes straight A's, the teachers don't have problems from him, and if they do, it is handled quickly with a required apology to the teacher. He is well behaved when we go to dinner or the movies or what have you. Perfect, far from it, but neither am I. He knows my expectations and he knows when he has pushed to far and is about to get the rath of mom.
Kids will never stop trying to push to see where the line is. We were all kids once too, we remember the things we tried to get away with. We aren't all that old. We all know that we only continued to try to get away with things, sometimes we did, but most times we didn't.
My problem is with parents that don't seem to care, and where I live, I see a lot of it. I see children 3 or 4 outside with no fence, playing by themselves.
I see children who are allowed to be disrespectful, or rude, and then when I see their parents I know why. Children are not the culprits as much as parents are. Children are only doing as much or little as their parents allow. I know that there are always exceptions to the rule. There are some great parents out there that have tried everything and still seem to have troubles with their children. I see many more parents that have no business having children that have these great kids. For the most part though, children are a reflection of their parents.

snapdragen

09-18-2006, 02:58 PM

Before I pass judgement and offer up the 'glares' that some of the mom's here are referring to, I always survey the parents as well as the kids. A mom who is clearly exasperated, doing her best, and at least trying to make peace absolutely does deserve our sympathy. A parent who is completely ignoring the situation (or even making it worse) does not. There is a difference.

Dog yes! Many times I've seen the "oh please someone take me away" look from an exhausted mom or dad. They usually give me a look of "I'm so sorry you have to witness this" I completely understand those times. What most of us are horrified by (imho), are the parents that stand there while "little devil child" throws him or herself around; and does nothing or close to nothing. I'm sorry, once a child is in total meltdown, telling them "You are making mommy sad" isn't going to do a darn bit of good.

When he was small, he had a fit, it happened twice I think. I told him I would not tolerate it and I would leave him sitting if he wanted to continue, he continued and as he did, I went around the corner peeking back at him to watch him. When he looked up and I was gone, well, he stopped quickly. When he called for me I was there

This is something my sister did too! Once she even got in the car and left! (Don't freak, she really just moved to where she could keep an eye on nephew, and he was probably 8 or 9)

Please don't think I hate kids - they are wonderful little creatures. They entertain me when I am eating dinner out alone. That is,once mom or dad realizes I'm not going to get miffed because junior is singing a song or wants to show me a picture they drew. (Yay for family friendly restaurants that supply crayons)

Python

09-18-2006, 03:12 PM

My problem is with parents that don't seem to care, and where I live, I see a lot of it. I see children 3 or 4 outside with no fence, playing by themselves.
I see children who are allowed to be disrespectful, or rude, and then when I see their parents I know why. Children are not the culprits as much as parents are. Children are only doing as much or little as their parents allow. I know that there are always exceptions to the rule. There are some great parents out there that have tried everything and still seem to have troubles with their children. I see many more parents that have no business having children that have these great kids. For the most part though, children are a reflection of their parents.

Absolutely! In our street a couple of years ago, we had the family from hell. The eldest was accused several times of interfering with younger children but was never prosecuted because of lack of evidence, he also had a fight with his father and pushed his father down the stairs causing brain-damage - his mother refused to tell the police what her son had done (Mummy's little darling couldn't do any wrong) so the police couldn't arrest him for attempted murder and she and her husband subsequently split up, the middle son took a delight in terrifying the elderly and infirm in our street, setting the beautiful woodland behind our houses on fire killing many small animals, vandalising cars (including £1400 of damage to mine) and people's homes. The youngest, a girl, was as bad as her brother and had a mouth like a sewer. The cause? Their mother. From the time they were born she let them get their own way in everything. If they did wrong at school, she went to the school and caused more trouble. Eventually, all three of them were expelled from school and sent to a special school for problem children.

Eventually, the eldest thankfully moved in with a girlfriend and away from our street. However, the other two continued to wreak havoc on our street - one time watched by their mother - who did - nothing! By this time the whole street had had enough. Most of us are Council tenants but some own their houses privately. We formed a Residents Association and several of us installed CCTV cameras. I don't know how people deal with this type of problem in the States, but we needed to actually prove that it was these two and their friends causing the damage. Didn't take long. The upshot was the whole family were evicted from their house for anti-social behaviour.

Since then, we have heard that the youngest got pregnant (she was 14) and had an abortion. The middle son became a drug addict and because of it he had a stroke and was confined to a wheelchair for some time. He is only 19 years old. I have heard he has recently got married so the whole circle will probably start all over again.

Both parents, but particularly the mother has failed these children miserably. Seemingly, the father would attempt to discipline the kids, either by smacking them or stopping their priviledges, but the mother would intervene and contradict anything he said. It was a no-win situation, especially for the kids.

If the mother had smacked them when they were young or instilled discipline in them by stopping their priviledges etc., then they might have had a future as decent young adults. As it is, all of them suffered, especially the kids, but also the mother as she lost her husband and even yet, people see her in town and point the finger at her.

Very sad.

CyclChyk

09-18-2006, 03:20 PM

Ok so I'm gonna have to go back and finish reading all the posts as when I got to the bottom of page 2 I wanted to respond to so many of you.

First I would like to say that I agree that its best I stick with dogs. I have. I'm 38 and will never have kids. Not that I don't like kids, persay. There are some that are so cute I just want to eat them up! That is for the first 10 minutes. After that, I've had enough. Go back to momma now, I'm not a kid person. Which is kinda ironic because kids typically love me. I used to teach daycare. I babysat for YEARS. But..... I have dogs and they stay in my fenced yard and I do not impose them on anyone. (Oh, and TREK, I have a neighbor who has two boys that throw rocks and sticks at my dogs! Has been doing it for over a year and the parents won't do a thing!! I'm thinking pellet gun??) :eek: :eek: Just kidding...... or am I? :D

And I did say that maybe I should be annoyed with the parents. Kids, after all, learn from example. And I certainly feel for the parent who is really good at being a parent, and their kid has just had a bad day. I can relate. I have bad days. But in my defense, I don't play in the road and neglect to get out of traffics way.

And I totally AGREE that kids should be allowed to be kids and let loose. But not when it puts themselves or others in harms way. Such as on a bike path where the parent just lets the kid run willy-nilly.

And as far as stores goes.... I HATE GROCERY SHOPPING! So realize the world revolves around me and shut your screaming kid up!! :eek: :D

CyclChyk

09-18-2006, 03:26 PM

d Oh and one more thing...

What the heck is up with the stupid parents that has a kid who is crying their eyes out (nails on a chalk board but my heart breaks when I hear it). I mean really, do you honestly think that hitting them and shouting "I told you to shut up or we are going home RIGHT NOW!" is gonna make them shut up??? I don't know about you guys but I think it would make me cry more............. And they know you aren't gonna take them home!

DramaDramaDrama

Geez......
p.s. Brandy - something tells me you are one of the good moms. :)

p.s.s. Kitsune - very well said!

p.s.s.s. Python & Salsabike - I like your thought process

I could go on but this is getting wordy again....

Kitsune06

09-18-2006, 04:03 PM

Really, honestly, I don't think any of the women here are the sorts to "never say no" etc. Biking etc are sports of discipline, and a woman with discipline tends to pass it on, consciously or not, to her kids.

(There were a bunch of things I was going to add to this thread as I thought about it today.)

I guess the 1st is that some kids really need special attention. I think most parents do the best they can with what they know- the trouble is, too many parents are kids themselves. It's a pity that biology makes it harder for people in their mid to late 30s to have kids, because I think by then you have a better idea of what's going on than in your 20s. This is mostly wishful thinking, though. My little sister had the same sort of parenting early on that I did. I was a sensitive kid and took a lot of things to heart. Mom needed just give me *the look* and I'd stop, and feel *bad*. My sis, on the other hand, was eventually diagnosed with "ODD" (Oppositional Defiance Disorder). Spanking did nothing, Verbal repremands did nothing, time-outs did nothing. It makes me sad to say that when I told my dad that I was upset because she got away with far more than I ever could, he told me "That's because we still have expectations for you." :eek: :eek: :eek: But I know they did the best they could.

The 2nd is that maybe I came off as harsh saying "Don't teach your kids with guilt". Honestly, I'm pretty sure that kits are ego-centrically minded until at least 8. The world revolves around them, and rightly so, because while they're busy developing and taking in all the new things around them, there's just too much to do to try to think about someone *else*, too, yet. Mindfulness of others comes into play later, when they begin to socially develop, and that can be anywhere from 8-12 (or later) (I think some people never get to that stage...)

3rd, Debw: It's called vasclip (http://www.vasclip.com/). and after living in all the little rural burbs I have, and hearing all the "She's a Sr. in high school and she and her BF had an accident, etc etc" stories I have... I'm SO with you on that.
Conservatives say "The government's trying to save people from themselves!"
...if people weren't so effing stupid, they wouldn't need saving.
and, fwiw, most of the kids who had accidents, that I know of, had strict 'family values'. the hippyish kids had already heard of the importance of b/c.:rolleyes:

DDH

09-18-2006, 04:22 PM

Kitsune06

09-18-2006, 04:25 PM

Reminds me of a joke.

Kid: "Mommy, mommy why do I keep running around in circles?"
Mom: "Shut up or I'll nail your other foot to the floor."

[If that was in poor taste, I'll slink off to the corner and laugh quietly. I do have children, now grown, and I've never used nails on them.]

Similar to
Kid: Mommy, Mommy, Why's daddy running so fast?"
Mom: "Shut up and hand me a few more rounds; the clip's empty."

...Definately belongs in the "Good Wife's Guide" humor thread, though...

CyclChyk

09-18-2006, 05:39 PM

Similar to
Kid: Mommy, Mommy, Why's daddy running so fast?"
Mom: "Shut up and hand me a few more rounds; the clip's empty."

...Definately belongs in the "Good Wife's Guide" humor thread, though...

Now THATS what I'm talking about!!!!

Tiffanie

09-18-2006, 07:27 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/ptbryant/clap.gif

Thank you, Karen

www.stophitting.com
Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishment to Love and Reason (http://www.alfiekohn.org/up/index.html)
http://www.naturalchild.org/

I don't believe in coddling, spoiling, back-talk, disrespect, running in the aisles, riding on the wrong side of the bike lane, or lack of discipline. I also don't believe adults always have it all together and I believe that children are one of the last classes of people that it's okay to disrespect, discriminate against and despise. I also do not believe in spanking/smacking/hitting/beating/corporal punishment.

My oldest child is 24, my youngest 12. Between the two, I evolved from a traditional, mainstream, spanking parent, to a non-spanking, child respecting, autonomy-granting one. The results have been the same--happy, healthy, responsible adults or near adults, with one glaring exception. My youngest son can never look back at his life and say I broke his trust by hitting him, and my oldest son can. That is something I will always regret.

My views now are very non-mainstream, and I have a rebuttal to almost every post in this thread, many of those rebuttals were developed and clarified through internet boards such as this one and reading up on the subject over the last 11 years. Since I've already BTDT, I won't debate them again. But I hope the links will help someone else see their children in a different way.

Karen

Pascale

09-19-2006, 05:54 AM

I don't glare at parents when a child is being bratty and unruly in a grocery (or other) store - usually the look on their face tells me they are at their wits end and their child isn't listening and they really DO just want to get out in one piece.

I give the child a stare that would chill steam. On many MANY occasions, the child, who might be used to manipulating a parent, won't try the same to a strange adult. I've had lots of them cut the crap IMMEDIATELY. Yeah, they're probably scared. Or at least surprised.

When the child stops screaming (or whatever he/she was doing) I then smile. Doubtful they are traumatized for life.

Tuckervill

09-19-2006, 06:08 AM

Tuckervill, Brandy, just wanted to let you know I did go to the website Tucker posted. I read it, and like I said in my previous post, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't happen to agree.

But of course. :)

I do bear in mind that there are many people who read and don't post. Maybe one or two of them would appreciate an alternative point of view. We don't have to incinerate the board over it.

Karen

DDH

09-19-2006, 07:05 AM

Tuckervill, I agree whole heartedly. I surly didn't mean that to be snotty if it came across that way. I was just wanting to let you know that I went there and read it. I have no problem looking into different ways to take care of issues with children. Ecspecially as they get older. Spankings are not something I do without consideration of other alternatives. It was rare that mine actually got one, and now that he is older, I look for other ways to punish. Taking privledges away works pretty well now. He loves his game box. LOL

Bluetree

09-19-2006, 08:07 AM

I give the child a stare that would chill steam. On many MANY occasions, the child, who might be used to manipulating a parent, won't try the same to a strange adult. I've had lots of them cut the crap IMMEDIATELY. Yeah, they're probably scared. Or at least surprised.

I used to have a studio inside a professional office building/business park which had a lovely atrium garden and water fountain. The gardeners were out several times a week trying to keep it blooming and beautiful, always posting the "keep off" signs.

The thing was, many parents who came to do business in the building left their children alone, loose in the atrium. The kids would be climbing the trees, digging up the soil, tearing leaves off plants and climbing into the fountain, all the while screaming like banshees. One kid actually pulled up plants by the roots to throw at his sibling.

If I ran into the parents in the hallway, I'd have to tell them that the office building is not a playground. They'd look at me like they'd never heard of a professional environment.
If I had to go out and stop the children from tearing up the place, I'd put on my Stern Face, walk out there and say in my best scary Stern Voice: "STOP. NOW. YOU WILL BE QUIET." They'd get all google-eyed and stop.

It's not the kids I mind so much, it's their idiotic parents who tacitly give them permission to do so. BTW, the other tenants started calling me The Terminator.

Python

09-19-2006, 09:38 AM

I watched a programme on television a few years back when the anti-spanking brigade were being very vociferous. Parents generally fell into two categories:

Quiet Reasoners

and

Quick Belters

(of course, nowadays we have a third category of parent - couldn't-care-lessers)

Anyway, when a child is under 5, they haven't got the reasoning capability, so Mum or Dad explaining why they shouldn't be doing what they're doing doesn't work. A child of that age doesn't have a good enough grasp of language to understand a fraction of what is being said to them.

On the other hand, a quick slap on the bottom gets the message across and there's no doubt what it means - that is not acceptable behaviour!

On the few times I smacked my kids, I always followed it up with why I'd smacked them, especially once they could understand. There is a whole world of difference between smacking a child because you love them and want them to be well-behaved and grow into good, decent adults and battering kids for the hell of it. Unfortunately, the "don't smack your kids brigade" can't tell the difference between the two.

I don't know what it's like in the States, but since parents and schools basically had the right to smack and discipline kids taken away from them, the crime rate amongst youngsters has rocketed. It doesn't take much working out why.

As a tailpiece, here's a little story.

My cat had 5 kittens, and as kittens do, as they got older, they got more boisterous. Mum Puss (Topsy) was sitting curled up contentedly infront of the fire. Meanwhile the kittens were having a funny half-hour, chasing each other, shredding my legs etc. They then decided it would be great fun to pounce on Mum. First she gave them a filthy look, stood up, turned round and settled down again. They carried on pouncing on her. Then she turned round very fast and hissed and growled at them. Four out of the five took the hint - Mum didn't want to be annoyed. Topsy curled back down again, but I could see she was irritated by the way the tip of her tail kept flicking. One of the kittens, Poppy decided to push her luck and pounced on Mum's tail. With a loud hiss and a growl, Topsy gave Poppy such a smack round the head that she rolled half way across the living-room. She took the hint after that and left Mum alone. A little later, Mum and kittens were all curled up together purring:D

We got good homes for four of the kittens and kept Poppy. She and her Mum go out exploring together and where you see one, you always find the other.

Even animals discipline their young.

Trekhawk

09-19-2006, 10:07 AM

RESPECT
I think you need to teach this to children in the early years. Respect for other people, respect for others property, respect for the environment and respect for themselves.

All kids will play up at some time that is just life (Im not always well behaved myself and have been know to throw a hissy fit just ask my husband) but I do firmly believe you reap what you sow. If children understand from an early age what you expect from them life is much easier. I have friends who let their children jump up and down on the furniture, tear around the house , pull up plants from their garden and generally cause mayhem everywhere. Now this is ok at YOUR house but kids need to know the difference when they visit others. We dont jump on furniture at my house and my kids know this. They also know that mum loves gardening so they would never think its ok to pull out a plant in my garden because 1 its nature and 2 it would make mum very sad.

Kids I truly believe want to do the right thing, sometimes they are just lacking guidance.

Now as far as supermarkets go hmmm for most mums that one is fraught with danger.:D

Next time you see a mum looking stressed smile at her, sometimes its these little things that help mums get through a tough day.

Python

09-19-2006, 11:01 AM

I remember when I was little, if we went visiting, my Mum used to hiss at us "Now you be on your best behaviour...or else!" Both my brother and I knew what the or else was. We behaved:D

fixedgeargirl

09-20-2006, 09:19 AM

Oooh boy, I have had to securely lock my soap box in the closet for this one. I'll just let Tuckervill say it for me:

I don't believe in coddling, spoiling, back-talk, disrespect, running in the aisles, riding on the wrong side of the bike lane, or lack of discipline. I also don't believe adults always have it all together and I believe that children are one of the last classes of people that it's okay to disrespect, discriminate against and despise. I also do not believe in spanking/smacking/hitting/beating/corporal punishment.

Thanks for posting those links, Tuckervill.

mimitabby

09-20-2006, 11:32 AM

As a tailpiece, here's a little story.

My cat had 5 kittens, and as kittens do, as they got older, they got more boisterous. Mum Puss (Topsy) was sitting curled up contentedly infront of the fire. Meanwhile the kittens were having a funny half-hour, chasing each other, shredding my legs etc. They then decided it would be great fun to pounce on Mum. First she gave them a filthy look, stood up, turned round and settled down again. They carried on pouncing on her. Then she turned round very fast and hissed and growled at them. Four out of the five took the hint - Mum didn't want to be annoyed. Topsy curled back down again, but I could see she was irritated by the way the tip of her tail kept flicking. One of the kittens, Poppy decided to push her luck and pounced on Mum's tail. With a loud hiss and a growl, Topsy gave Poppy such a smack round the head that she rolled half way across the living-room. She took the hint after that and left Mum alone. A little later, Mum and kittens were all curled up together purring:D

We got good homes for four of the kittens and kept Poppy. She and her Mum go out exploring together and where you see one, you always find the other.

Even animals discipline their young.

gosh, where were you when my cousin was doing her pathetic tender love thing with her monster children????

Brandy

09-20-2006, 12:45 PM

Oooh boy, I have had to securely lock my soap box in the closet for this one. I'll just let Tuckervill say it for me:

Thanks for posting those links, Tuckervill.

I wish that you wouldn't fixedgeargirl. We've certainly heard everyone else's opinion on this thread.

pepe6599

09-20-2006, 01:21 PM

This is what I think... I takes a pretty special person to deal with those "unruley kids", but someone elses opinion of unruly could be another person opinion of behaving. I try to make a rule of thumb that every kid can be worst then the worst.

maillotpois

09-20-2006, 03:59 PM

Veronica - who did not laugh when the kid passed gas because she was doing read aloud and it was not appropriate.

Oh liar liar pants (possibly quite literally) on fire.

:p

Veronica

09-20-2006, 04:06 PM

Oh liar liar pants (possibly quite literally) on fire.

:p

I'm not fibbing. But I did deliberatly crack the class up saying fart several times.

Ohhhhh... and at back to school night, talking about family life (sex ed in our district) I said penis - in front of all those parents! :p Our sex ed curriculum is too explicit.

V.

maillotpois

09-20-2006, 04:09 PM

I'm not fibbing. But I did deliberatly crack the class up saying fart several times.

Ohhhhh... and at back to school night, talking about family life (sex ed in our district) I said penis - in front of all those parents! :p Our sex ed curriculum is too explicit.

V.

At least you don't use "those fonts"..... do you? (We even heard about that in Hawaii!!)

lph

09-21-2006, 05:16 AM

At least you don't use "those fonts"..... do you? (We even heard about that in Hawaii!!)

ok, I'm twisting my brain into little moebius strips trying to figure out what this means... plase explain? :o

fixedgeargirl

09-21-2006, 05:59 AM

I wish that you wouldn't fixedgeargirl. We've certainly heard everyone else's opinion on this thread.

Okay, here's a thought:

Why is it that an action, that if perpetrated against an adult stranger of any stature would result in criminal charges, is *okay* if perpetrated against someone 1/5th your size who trusts you completely and implicitly with their very survival?

Veronica

09-21-2006, 06:18 AM

Why is that a student who has attacked others with nails, not the fingernail kind, the hammering kind, punched a teacher and is verbally abusive to the entire class everyday, is allowed to stay in public school?

I honestly believe that most people who responded with ways to "dsicipline" were rather tongue in cheek.

V.

fixedgeargirl

09-21-2006, 08:41 AM

Veronica

09-21-2006, 02:47 PM

That sounds like a frightening situation, V., and I don't understand why the administration would allow someone like that in the school. At the root of it, I would suspect an abusive/neglectful home situation and/or sensory or developmental issues.

This was my class a few years ago. He was/is emotionally disturbed, placed at my school in my room after the punching incident at another school. My district wanted me to babysit him until the end of the year when he could be placed in special school as a 6th grader.

Yes there were a lot issues. But what bothered me the most was that the learning of my other students took a back seat to dealing with this kid every day. And that still happens in classrooms. "Edgar" is a drug baby, has a low IQ, can't do any of the work required, so cuts up because it gets him attention and he needs something to do. Since he is performing at his capacity, he's not given any extra help and his IQ isn't low enough for him to go to a special class.

Yeah being a teacher is way different from being a parent, because I actually have standards that I am suppose to help my 30 students achieve before the end of the year. AND according to the president, even Edgar is suppose to meet those standards.

BTW I was abused as a kid. I know the difference between abuse and teaching a child to have consideration and respect for him/herself and others.

Veronica

SadieKate

09-21-2006, 03:07 PM

FixedGirl, unfortunately we live in a society that lets NBA (and NFL) players attack coaches and photographers without legal punishment. Kids see this in the news regularly; their "heros" abuse others with impunity. (I use the term hero loosely because hero worship of pro athletes is a whole 'nother crazy topic.)

My father was so exhausted from being a parent to all his students who didn't get attention in their own homes that he wasn't a parent in his. As his daughter, I want to thank all those parents who let him do the parenting for them. It certainly helped me. :rolleyes:

DDH

09-21-2006, 07:04 PM

V, I just want to say to you that I appreciate you. My son has had very good teachers so far except 1 and he is now in the 6th grade. That has got to be one of the hardest jobs there is and a good teacher that really cares is a great asset to society. You are teaching our future generation, and helping the parents of this generation and more.
I'm what they call a helicopter mom, not sure if that is an insult or compliment, but whichever, I admit to it. I volunteered a lot during my son's elementary years and I saw so many things with parents and children. It's just unbelievable what you teachers must deal with. I'm not a perfect parent by any means but I really try, and I feel so sorry for some of the kids I saw daily. I try not to be judgemental, but sometimes it's really hard. I can't imagine what must go through teachers heads with some of the children and their parents. Anyway, Thank you for all you do, and that goes for all teachers!! :D

Irulan

09-22-2006, 05:05 PM

Unruly kids usually tick me off, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should be ticked at the parent(s). Please let me apologize up front if I offend any kid lovers out there but.................

Why do parents let their kids play/run/ride in the path of traffic?? Not highway traffic, but for example:
1. roads in your subdivision - so just because you and your kids live here means you don't have to get out of the street when a car comes by??
I live here too. Why do I have to stop my car and inch around you/your kids when I have the right of way and you saw me coming a 1/4 mile away??

.

Ok. I've vented. I think I'll go eat some peanut butter and then I'll feel much better.

Thanks for listening and again, I apologize if I've offended anyone. It wasn't my intention.

emerging from lurkdom.

re #1.
Maybe they didn't see you. Maybe they are really involved in the game. Maybe you are going too fast and they are being passive/aggressive. Ok, that last one's a joke.. but if kids can't play in front of their own homes, where CAN they play?

I suggest you put slow down, take a deep breath, put down the latte and the cell phone, and be happy the kids are playing outside instead of a) sitting on their butts in front of video games or b) hanging out at the mall doing drugs with their friends. Maybe you need to give yourself a little more time to get to where ever you need to go, so that waiting for kids to step out of the way won't be such a stressor? They do make adult only communties, perhaps you should consider moving to one.

back to lurking.