My road bike does not fit. Help.

[xeney]

Please excuse the length of this post, but I need help. After a couple of years of riding less than I expected to, and never quite getting comfortable, I am facing the irritating fact that my road bike does not fit me, and I don't think we can make it fit.

I am 5'6 and I ride a 53cm 2003 Bianchi Veloce that I bought new in 2004. I was fitted at the bike shop, but it was my first road bike and I didn't really know how it should feel. I have bad knees so I thought my knee pain was just par for the course; I did not have any good comparisons to help me understand just how bad the reach was. I don't like riding this bike in town because I feel like the brakes are a million miles away; I thought my inability to ride in the drops was my own lack of flexibility until I rode for a while on a road bike that was otherwise way too small for me. I have never been able to get to the point where I can ride further or faster than I did right after I bought the bike, but I figured that was just because I am kind of clumsy and unathletic. (That could still be true.)

But yesterday my husband and I spent the entire day taking measurements, using online fit guides (this one (http://www.wrenchscience.com/WS1/Secure/Fitting/Height.asp) and this one (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCT?PAGE=FIT_CALCULATOR_INTRO), although both are definitely biased for men), and swapping things around on my bike to try to make it fit. And I think what we have concluded is that there is no way to make this bike fit me.

First, both fit calculators had me on a 55/56cm bike. And even though that is obviously going to make the reach issue even worse, after literally hours of messing with seatpost setback and saddle height, I can see why those numbers came up, although it is mostly an issue of my having disproportionally long femurs. There is no way to make this bike fit me so that my knee is properly over the pedal (that KOPS thing). We bought a seatpost with about 25 mm of setback and I am still over an inch in front of the pedal. We ditched my Brooks saddle and went back to the one that gave me saddle sores, because a Brooks can't be set as far back as a modern saddle. It still wasn't enough. We found a seatpost with 35 mm of setback that we can mail order, but that still isn't going to do the job. In order to get the seat far enough back, I have to raise the saddle height to the point where I can't reach the pedal on the down stroke. This makes sense; I have in the past had to raise the seat in order to alleviate knee pain, and then I get a saddle sore on my right side because I am rocking so much on the down stroke. (We also learned that my right leg is shorter than my left. I had no idea I was such a freak of nature -- thank you, cycling.)

Second, of course adjusting that setback has made the reach even worse. We swapped out my 10cm stem for a 9cm stem because that was what we could buy locally, but that is nowhere near enough. I am going to try a 7cm stem, knowing that it is likely to make steering squirrelly, but I don't feel like I have a ton of other options that don't involve buying a new bike right this minute.

Obviously, this all makes it seem like I need a women's specific bike, and I probably do. We tested me out on my husband's Giant OCR comp, which is a medium, and we can adjust the saddle setback/height easily to get my knee in the right position, but then I would need an even shorter stem, like a 5cm or something. So that isn't going to work either.

I cannot afford to spend very much on a bike right now, and frankly I don't feel like I ride enough to justify it. I am also really afraid that I am going to be trading down and losing some things I really love about the Veloce, namely steel and Campy (nobody makes WSD in steel, do they?), but if I am not riding it because it does not fit, then I don't know what else to do. I did not like any of the women-specific models I test rode before I bought this one, but they were all aluminum, and I think they were also all too small for me -- everyone kept putting me on 51cm and 53cm frames, or even smaller ones. (That could be an issue of what is in stock. I don't think I have ever seen a 55cm women's frame in person.) I really love the way the Campy levers feel in my hands; I find them very comfortable and I would be sorry to lose that, especially in the price range I can afford.

These are the options I am thinking about, and I wanted to know if you guys have opinions or can think of other options.

1. Set it up with the 7cm stem and the super setback seatpost, which will get me within less than inch of proper knee-over-pedal position, and see if that is good enough. Save up for a custom steel frame.

Are there other components that we could swap out to make this better? Those brake levers for women, maybe? Do they make those for Campy? I thought about shorter cranks -- my current cranks are 170mm -- but I am having trouble envisioning whether that would help or hurt. I could raise the seat higher and get more setback that way, but the shorter crank would still mean that my knee isn't centered over the pedals, right? (Am I envisioning that right?) A longer crank might put my knee in the right place but I'd have to lower the seat in order to reach the pedal on the downstroke. Right?

2. Go shop for a women's specific bike, even though I would be looking at extreme low-end entry level right now because that would be what I can afford. I am probably being a baby about aluminum bikes, and I can certainly live with low-end components given how little I ride anyway. If I wind up riding more on a bike that fits better, I can upgrade later.

3. Something else I haven't thought of. Take up jogging or kayaking instead, and restrict my cycling to commuting and grocery shopping? I guess this is really what I have been doing for the past year.

I'm sorry this is so long, but I am hoping that those of you with lots of experience can help me out. Thank you in advance.

[KnottedYet]

If the reach on a 53 cm is too long for you, the reach on a 56 cm will be even longer.

There is a WSD steel Bianchi. I think it's the Bianchi Eros Donna. One of the Bianchistes will post some links, I'm sure.

Women have longer femurs than men. That's one of the reasons why WSD is so popular. I'm man-sized enough (5'8" long arms and legs) that I'm comfortable on regular bikes with slack geometry.

Reaching the levers: MimiTabby has a great bar on her Veloce, I think it's called the Eva. Her brake levers are so much closer now!

Frames and components you like: you could look into a custom steel frame and just transfer all the goodies from your Bianchi to your new steel frame. Then sell the Bianchi frame.

[xeney]

The Eros Donna tops out at 50 cm, unfortunately. I tried one when I bought my bike and it was way too small for me. It also, I believe, has the exact same seat tube angle as Bianchi's other road bikes, including the one I am riding now. So I don't think that is going to work for me at all.

[roguedog]

Xeney,

I'm kinda a newb so definately take what I say with a palm of salt.

It looks like you've tried many things with a decent amount of awareness of what you're doing and with each change assessed its possible impact to your biomechanics.

However, I wonder if at this point it might not be wise to bring a professional fitter to help assess the best way to either fit you without hurting yourself in someway you won't know for years or to take it a very reputable, trusted bike shop that is known for doing good fittings before you toss out the bike as whole?

I know you're in Sac area so, I've heard good things about this guy, http://www.revolutionsinfitness.com/ if you can find your way to come down to Oakland one day. He's a PT who specializes in cycling coaching and also does fittings. I've read he's well reputed and I believe that Snapdragon has used him with happy results. I am also possibly considering him, not because my bike doesn't fit but that I want to be sure that the fitting done at my bike shop truly fits who I am as a rider not their transferance or interpretation of their experiece. For instance, the guy who fit me was an ex-racer. I don't expect to be racing.. hmm.. probably never so I don't know if he put me in a racing position might hurt me somewhere. It's just a bit of check n' balance for my own peace of mind.

Anyway, as to bike shops, this is pure hearsay but I've heard that Ken's Bike and Ski in Davis (Go Aggies!!) is a reputable shop. Haven't ever used them myself and probably just peeked in curiously when I was a poor student and wondered about all the crazy people who would pay that much for a bike when my $30 UCD auction bike was fine. (And it was STILL stolen!)

Long ramblings from a complete ignoramus.

Best of luck

[xeney]

Thanks. Yeah, a professional fitting is definitely the next step, although I really can't go all the way to the Bay Area to do it. My husband had a custom fitting from a local bike shop and it was a joke, unfortunately. I have heard that Steve Rex does custom fittings for about $100, so I will probably do that next. The setback/seatpost issue is not one that I think can be fixed, though. I just don't know how close is "good enough" there.

[Brandi]

I unfortunatly have been in the same bike seat as you!
I bought a bike three years ago, my first real bike and didn't know exactly how it would feel and like you it never felt right. I was always having problems here and there.
My husband has become a techno bike guy in three years and realized it wasn't me but my bike, it was to big for me and my reach was way out there. He built me a new one. I was going to sell my other bike, but decided to keep it for when people come to visit. We live in a great biking town so it made sence to keep it. But maybe sence your bike is not that old you could sell it and buy a new one.
I also noticed that the more I bike the less my knee's (which I have problems with too) bother me these days. They bother me more when I don't bike.

[Triskeliongirl]

I understand your problem, as I too have very long femurs. For me, I have to buy bikes with 73 degree seat tubes AND use a very laid back seat post to get set up properly. I believe the veloces have pretty steep seat tube angles. For example, at the bianchi site they say the STA on a 53 cm veloce is 75. Roughly, for every 1 degree increase in STA, your saddle will be 1 cm more forward. So, if you had a bike with a 73 degree seat tube angle, you'd buy yourslef 2 cm. Couple this with a very laid back seatpost, and you're OK, even with your Brooks Saddle. For example, my Brooks is fine with an alpha ! carbon seatpost on a 73 STA bike. That is why I ride terry bikes. They are one of the only companies to use 73 degree STAs on the smaller sized frames. BUT, because you have long femurs, you also probably have a shorter upper body, so a 55 cm bike would be too large. I need a bike smaller than my leg measurement predicts to the get the right top tube length. Again, I have done really well with terry bikes. Cervelos also have a 73 STA in all sizes, and might work for you, but they are mucho money.

[xeney]

Wow, looking around, there really aren't many bikes with seat tube angles under 75 (or 74.5, which I am assuming would not give me much improvement). Even the women-specific models tend to have 75 degree angles except in the very tiny sizes.

It also sounds like I would need a 51 or a 53? Argh. I tried a couple in that size range two years ago -- a Specialized Dolce, and a Cannondale -- and they were both way too small. Even though my reach is shorter than a man's, I'm not sure it's quite as short as some women's. My husband is two and a half inches taller than I am, but his shoulder-to-fingertip measurement is only about an inch longer; we have the same inseam so he does have a couple of inches on me in the upper body but I think a lot of women have more dramatic proportion issues than I do.

I guess I am just going to try to make this one work for now. In order to get the angle I think I need I have to spend a lot more money than I can afford at the moment. I may spring for the custom fitting and see how close we can get it, and then if it's still too uncomfortable I'll rethink whether road cycling is something I can even afford to do.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

[mimitabby]

i have a cheapo fix that might help you at least with the brakes. They make these little levers that you can put on your bars... then you don't have to reach the hoods to get to the brakes. I know what you're going through; it is awful how hard it is for gals to find a bike that they can ride comfortably!

Yes, i got the Eva handlebars... if they didn't do the trick i was going to get
the little levers..

[xeney]

Oh, hey, the 3T Eva bars? My husband had suggested something like that but I couldn't find anything that looked right. (I have really wide shoulders and the only women-specific handlebars I could find were for narrow shoulders.) Thank you for the suggestion, Mimi.

[mimitabby]

these Eva bars aren't that narrow. They are wider than what i used to have.
my shoulders are 38's and i think the bars are 40's. I know they come in 2 sizes too.

[xeney]

Yeah, we were actually thinking that the ones that came on the Veloce were too narrow for me rather than the reverse. But it looks like the Eva bars are shallower (?) so the brakes/hoods aren't as far away. That is exactly what Jeremy wanted me to look for but I couldn't find anything described that way, so thank you for giving me a name to look for.

[Dogmama]

Could you put your Campy bits on a new bike? Just a thought for if/when you decide to get a bike that fits a little better.

I have no advice other than that. I ended up buying myself a custom bike because everything off of the rack killed my lower back. That was over 10 years ago. I'm sure WSD bikes are much better now.

[Triskeliongirl]

I do have few very short stems (6.5 cm), but they are old quill stems that fit a 1" threaded stearer tube, and hold a 25.4 cm bar. If these are of any use to you please PM me. I know you can buy very laid back seatposts, but be careful they adjust to give enough downtilt for a brooks. I noticed when switching from a butterfly to a brooks that the saddle rails are angled differently, so I couldn't install my brooks on my selcolf superlaid back post, but could on my alpha Q pro carbon. I also noticed if you push the leather away from the rails, you can get the saddle back further. I think if you get a super laid back seatpost, a shorter stem and a shorter bar, you can make this bike rideable. Also, while its most effecient if you achieve KOPS,its not essential as many triathaletes prefer a more forward position. Just look next time for bikes with shallower seat tube angles. I think you would be a great candidate for a terry bike. While they are expensive new, they are often available for a good price on ebay, and the terry website has a buy/sell/trade section that might work for you.

[xeney]

Thank you for the offer -- I do need a threadless stem for this bike, though, and I think I will be okay with the 7cm stem and the Eva handlebars. That should buy me about another 3 cm in reach, which right now feels like what I need.

But I really can't use a Brooks on this bike, I don't think. We just had a little breakthrough -- we put a series of men's saddles on it, and with every one of them, we were able to easily get the saddle far back enough to put my knee in the proper position. And I can ride a men's saddle, I think, if it is the right one, because I have narrow sit bones ... lately I have been feeling like my Butterfly is too wide and squishy. The best was my husband's Selle Italia Flite Trans Am, but he says I can't have it because he is a very bad husband. I also liked a Selle Royal Sport okay in terms of length and width, but it was way too squishy. Still, I think I can find something that will work. Thank you for the encouragement!

[jenxxs]

Ditto the recommendation for the inline (cyclocross-style) brake levers, mounted on the flat part of the bars. They are an inexpensive solution (~$30-35) to helping with the reach problem, if you're not ready right now to trade in your bike.

My first road bike was much too big for me, but I was stuck with it for the charity ride that I signed up for because I had no time to deal with it. My LBS suggested the inline brakes, and they definitely saved the day for me.

Even though my new bike fits me very well, I'm actually going to get the inline brakes installed again. They're helpful on steep downhills, because I'm still not experienced enough riding in the drops, and my hands are on the small side even for Shimano short-reach levers.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Xeney, For what it's worth:
My Rivendell road bike came with a 9cm stem. I had to push my Brooks seat all the way forward on its rails to reach the hoods better, but after a month riding it I still felt too much weight on my hands, and could not ride in the drops at all. The height of the bike was good, as was the crank and seat height and my leg/back position.
Anyway, we switched the 9cm stem for a 5cm stem, and then moved the saddle BACK about a cm so that it was better centered on its rails. End result: handlebars 3 cm closer to me. The immediate difference was incredible- suddenly I could grab the brakes better, ride in the drops, and my weight now felt CENTERED over my whole body and my legs rather than falling forward on my hands. I no longer felt I was trying to hold myself up with my hands. Some people might say that such a short stem will affect my downhill speed and/or my front steering. But hey I just went 36 mph down a hill the other day no problem (i don't need to go faster than that!), I can ride down in the drops effortlessly now, can get my hands all around the brakes now, and I see no problem with my steering...been dodging rocks and gullies on gravel roads for a week now with no squirrels in sight. ;) I am thrilled at riding so comfortable now. So that's my little stem story.

[xeney]

Argh. So frustrating. My new handlebars came -- the Salsa Short and Shallow bars -- and I think my husband must have measured the old ones wrong, because these are pretty much the same size as what I have. I'm not sure it's worth the swap.

And my 7cm stem did not come, even though I ordered it last week and paid for two-day shipping. Grrr. I have a ride planned on Sunday and I don't think I am going to be able to reach my handlebars. My husband wants me to start calling local bike shops tomorrow, but I don't know why they would suddenly have a 7cm stem in stock now when they didn't before.

My husband pointed out this week that I am faster on my single-speed mixte -- a twenty-year old bike that I have outfitted with fattish tires, very heavy racks, super upright cruiser bars, and a relatively low gear -- than I am on the Bianchi. Which is crazy; that's like being faster on a mountain bike than on your road bike. Tonight on a whim I had him check my knee position on the mixte to see how it fits me, and damned if my knee isn't right over the pedal where it's supposed to be. Guess there's something to that.

[jenxxs]

Another possible reason you might be faster on your singlespeed is the lower gearing. Esp. if your crank length on that bike is shorter than the 170 on your road bike (which does sound on the large side).

[xeney]

Nope, 170 on both. And I'm slow in ANY gear on the Bianchi. :o

[jenxxs]

Actually, I was recently in the same boat you're in - riding a Bianchi (Eros Donna) that didn't fit at all. I was WAYYYYY slow on it - finished basically dead last on the charity ride I did this summer, even though I'm not in that bad shape! Getting a bike that fits made me instantly faster. Now I'm looking forward to swapping out the "mancranks" that came on my bike, and seeing how much faster I can become.

Ditto the recommendation of trying out Terry bikes, when you're ready. Great company. My very first adult bike was a Terry mountain bike.

Oops - missed the earlier part about your having extra-long femurs. Now I see why you're using 170s. I guess I always think of those as long because I'm so short!

[Kano]

Actually, I was recently in the same boat you're in - riding a Bianchi (Eros Donna) that didn't fit at all. I was WAYYYYY slow on it - finished basically dead last on the charity ride I did this summer, even though I'm not in that bad shape! Getting a bike that fits made me instantly faster. Now I'm looking forward to swapping out the "mancranks" that came on my bike, and seeing how much faster I can become.

Well, this is interesting! So, if my bike fit differently, I could be faster? This intrigues me a LOT! I'm probably not doing so badly considering my bike is a comfortbeast with mountain bike tendencies, but I do seem to notice that if I can shove myself into positions that it doesn't seem to encourage, I get more power and speed -- hmmm, yes, more reason for a roadie bike! (don't much need speed on the dirt I don't much enjoy riding on!)

Karen in Boise

[pooks]

I do seem to notice that if I can shove myself into positions that it doesn't seem to encourage, I get more power and speed -- hmmm, yes, more reason for a roadie bike!
Karen in Boise

Yep, I'm doing that, too. I'm practically hanging my tailbone off the back edge of my Brooks 67 when I'm most comfortable -- was the same with the previous saddle, too. And its back as far as it will go. Which does make me wonder if I've just got the wrong geometry or something. (LBS guys who have seen me on it say I have the right size bike, so evidently it's not too small.)

[xeney]

Pooks, two things: (1) the person (woman) at my LBS was sure that my bike was the right size for me, too, so they do not actually know everything, and (2) the Brooks saddle may not be able to go back as far as a regular saddle, and that might be causing you problems. That is exactly how I figured out that this bike was really, truly not fitting me; I put on a Brooks and kept climbing off the back of it trying to get a good pedal stroke.

You might try raising the seat a little. Even on an upright bike like a hybrid, that might get you back a bit.

Since my 7cm stem didn't arrive and I really need a rideable road bike for a class I'm taking tomorrow, I am going to get the only other option we found locally, which is a Ritchie adjustable stem. My husband thinks it will be too much and make my steering very squirrely, but I am buying it from REI so if it does not work out, I can return it after the 7cm arrives. I also got a set of cyclocross levers and we'll install those tonight (although my husband is really never going to stop calling them "chicken levers," not even if I kick him really hard).

[Bad JuJu]

although my husband is really never going to stop calling them "chicken levers," not even if I kick him really hard).
But it's worth a try, isn't it?;)
But seriously, good luck finding your fit. I bought and sold two bikes that were too big for me because LBS guys told me they were my size. After that, I educated myself and did the homework I should've done in the first place so I'd know for myself whether a bike fit me or not.

For what it's worth, I've gone the short stem extension route too, and it didn't noticeably affect my steering for the worse. And I too am finding that I just can't get the women's Brooks shoved back far enough for me. Might try a seatpost with a longer setback though. Just my 2 cents.

[pooks]

This is the second saddle I've tried and neither would go back far enough.

That seat post with a longer setback? Maybe I should learn more about that option.

[Bad JuJu]

I think this is the seatpost that Triskeliongirl mentioned:
Alpha Q Carbon seatpost (http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=17017&subcategory_ID=5261)

[xeney]

JuJu, from what I've read the seatpost with the most setback of any on the market is 35mm. We're already there, so we've maxed out that option. (And I can't reach the handlebars.)

I think this bike is going on the block. Damn.

ETA: yeah, I did check that one out ... it only has 25mm of offset (http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=7381&category=892), so it's actually less than what I have now.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

A bike being the "right size" has little to do with whether it FITS you well or not.
Any LBS person who sends you off with a new bike just because it's "your size" isn't doing their job. You could take 5 bikes that are all your "correct size" they will all fit you differently. You will have a different body position on each one. ONe might be a perfect fit and another might leave you in pain after a couple hours of riding. Yet you are told they are all "the right size". The right size often is just a beginning point in the search for a good fitting bike- it only refers to ONE measurement on a frame- the seat tube. It doesn't have much to do with angles or arm reach or handlebar width/height, and a dozen other factors. Happily, some of these factors can be changed on a bike, but others you can't do much about.
This is an interesting article on frame sizing (with some definite opinions):
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-sizing.html
It also has some good links on the bottom to other articles by other people.

[xeney]

Well, I didn't mean she said, "Yes, you're a 53," and pulled one off the shelf and sent me on my way. She had me sit on different bikes, she moved the seat around, she had me test ride.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Xeney, I didn't mean that was necessarily what happened in your case, but unfortunately I suspect it happens too often. I'm glad your person at least tried to get the fit right for you.

[xeney]

Well, I think we are giving up. The Ritchie stem is about equivalent to 8cm, with some rise. It is still way too far. More than 3cm too far. The bike does not fit me and we can't make it fit.

I'm going to take it to a shop that will sell it on consignment. I'm not shopping for a new bike right now, because I really can't afford anything nice, and I am not excited about paying nearly $2K for an aluminum bike, as I would have to do with a Terry. I am just going to cut my losses and try to learn to love my mountain bike.

Thank you, everybody, for your help.

[Triskeliongirl]

You don't need to spend 2,000 for an aluminum terry. I just bought a beautiful 2003 terry isis frame, reynolds 853 steel , never been built on ebay for $100. I am buying a carbon fork for it for $200 and then transferring the rest of the parts from another bike. Some shops may even still have the 2005 Isis left which was made in titanium (you could try phoning harris cyclery where I bought mine). If you watch ebay, steel Isis and symetries are always available at good prices. If you go to the buy/sell section of the terry website, you can also find folks selling older models. But don't give up. There is a road bike out there for you at reasonable cost.

[xeney]

I don't think I would feel okay buying a used bike at this point without test riding it and being fitted to it. Not even a Terry, because I looked at the geometry page and I am having a hard time seeing where the miracle is. Maybe I am visualizing it wrong. The Isis has a slightly different angle in the seat tube than the Veloce -- 74 vs. 75 -- but the other measurements are really similar. My current bike is right between the 19 and 20 inch Isis in terms of standover and seat tube length, and it is also right between them in every other area. The only measurement that is really different is the top tube length, which is obviously where I most need an adjustment, but it's only about an inch shorter, and that is not going to be anywhere close to enough.

I know you can't just go off the numbers, but I would really need to ride one, I think, which means I probably need to buy a new one. Unfortunately I have never seen a Terry in a used bike shop, and the Terry dealer here only stocks the tiny ones.

[jenxxs]

It sounds to me like you're going to have to prioritize the top tube measurement (shorter) and the seat tube angle (slacker, 73 not 74/75). This may mean that you end up with a frame size (seat tube length) that seems smaller than what you might expect given your inseam. Note that in the Terry Isis/Symmetry, the smallest sizes get the classic 73 angle by using the two wheel sizes. (That's the "miracle" of the Terry geometry.) The middle sizes then have to get steeper (74), and then the largest sizes get back to 73. That's considerably slacker than most WSD designs, which typically have seat tube angles exceeding 73 in all sizes.

I definitely understand the reluctance to buy used, especially without the opportunity to extensively test-ride. However, keep in mind that if the used price you pay is reasonable, it's not difficult to resell for close to that price if you make a mistake. When I had to unload my used Bianchi that didn't fit properly, I got 90% of my purchase price back, within one day, by selling it on Craigslist. I've also sold bikes from a distance, and it's not that much of a hassle if you require that the buyer pay for professional boxing and shipping by your LBS.

[SadieKate]

Anyway, as to bike shops, this is pure hearsay but I've heard that Ken's Bike and Ski in Davis (Go Aggies!!) is a reputable shop. Haven't ever used them myself and probably just peeked in curiously when I was a poor student and wondered about all the crazy people who would pay that much for a bike when my $30 UCD auction bike was fine. (And it was STILL stolen!)If you decide to spring for a fitting, go to Steve Rex in Sac or ask for Joe at Wheelworks in Davis.

Ken's is a fine shop but Wheelworks is the serious, roadie geek, fit down to the mm type shop. If you have fit quirks, you need the kind of knowledge Steve or Joe has.

Xeney, I've never seen you. Sometimes, people just don't fit on stock bikes. In your case, due to your budget, you may want to pay for a fitting and get all your numbers, and then ask for the shop's assistance in helping you track down a used bike or serve as a fitter for whatever you can find used. This means a good relationship with the shop that does the fitting. After your fitting, the fitter might be able to steer you toward a particular brand and model that might work.

[Bad JuJu]

When I bought my Terry, the shop didn't have the size I thought I needed either. But Terry works really well with local shops, and my LBS was able to get the size I wanted to try without my having to definitely say I'd buy it. So you might either talk to the shop manager/owner or email Terry and ask about their working with your LBS.

I'm pretty short, but still I've ended up being comfortable on bikes shorter than my height predicts, because my legs are not long, but proportionally long compared to the rest of my body, and my torso and functional reach are incredibly short. All this is by way of seconding what jenxxs said about size. Good luck, Xeney--I really hope you find a road bike that fits--and that you can afford.

[Triskeliongirl]

Xeney- do you know your cycling inseam. Without your measurements its hard to advise you, but here are a few quick options I found. If the problem is you need a really short top tube and shallow seat tube angle, the pre-2005 isis or symetry could do the trick. I attached specs which I believe are true for the 2001-2004 models (at least the frame geometry is, although the exact steel used, etc. may have changed in that period). The biggest difference was in 2005 when she went to a 2 x 650 wheel on the 19" instead of the 700c/24" combo, and increased the STA by 1 cm and top tube by 1.4 cm, effectively increasing the reach by an inch. So when I bought my 2005 titanium Isis I bought the 17.5" even though I could have fit the 19" based on my inseam. It means I have more exposed seatpost (5") and a taller stem. FYI, I am 5'4" tall, cycling inseam 30.5", long femured, short torso and arms. I just bought a 19" 2003 steel Isis that also works. On this page there are 2 used 19" symetries for sale. http://www.terrybicycles.com/trade/index.html?browse=sell. I am sure if you contact the sellers you could get them for less than the asking price, and turn them around to sell if they don't work out. All the 2001-2005 bikes are 9spd, in 2006 she went to 10 spd. All the 2001-2004 bikes are steel, in 2005 Isis was done in titanium with carbon fork, and in 2006 she went to scandium with carbon seatstays and forks on many models. I also noticed on her sale page she has 2 bikes that may also suit you. http://www.terrybicycles.com/product.html?idc=4576d521&c=On+Sale&sc=BicyclesA 20" 2005 Isis. I would send her my measurements, and if she thinks the 20" will work for you, ask her to ship it to a bike shop of your choice for assembly under her plan where you can return it for only the cost of shipping if you are not happy with the fit. These bikes also are equipped with short reach bars, short stems, etc. I have a 2005 titanium Isis and it rides like a dream. They were just made for one year, 2005, but if this bikes fits you and/or you can find out for the cost of return shipping I think its worth a shot. My gut feeling from everything you have told is though, is that a 19" 2001-2004 Isis/Symetry will do the trick for you. Georgena has carbon forks on order that will work on those models (I am waiting for one for the frame I just bought) that will sell for $200 each, although you will need to also change the headset to threadless is you choose to upgrade the fork. But that could be something you do only if you are happy with the fit but want to lighten up the bike. FYI, yoy say you want to be professionally fitted, but I've been there, done that. Many 'professional' fitters still put women on bikes too big/long for them. It was only when I took responsibility for fitting myself that I was able to find bikes that work. That meant figureing out what I needed and then searching for frames with specs in a range that I could make them work with available stems, setposts, etc. Good luck and please let us know how it works out. -e

[Triskeliongirl]

One last thought. Be really careful when you compare the terry bikes to the Veloce. You said you have a Veloce. This bike has a sloping top tube so you have to sure to be comparing the virtual top tube which on the 53 cm is published as 53.5 w a 75 degree STA. The 20" Isis has a straight top tube of 50.8 cm w a 74 STA angle. The 1 cm shorter seat tube angle shortens the reach by 1 cm, so if you correct for that its like the tt were only 49.8. The seat tube on the veloce is a center to top measurement while terry measures center to center, so more informative is the standover height which is 30 on the veloce and 30.4. So if your inseam is >31.4 you could clear the top tube on the 20" terry and have a reach that is a 3.7 cm difference in reach, coupled with a short reach bar and short reach brake levers I think would do the trick. Given you can still get the 2005 titanium isis in 20" on the sale page, and return it if it doesn't work out, I think its win win. Also, be aware they will swap parts, so if you want a different width handlebar I know they will make the swap (they did this for me). Maybe you can even negoitate about the price since the 2007 bikes are coming in and that bike is a 2005, although in my opinion I'd rather a 2005 ti bike than a 2007 scandium.

[xeney]

Thank you so much for your help, but I really cannot possibly afford a 2005 Isis. They are still running over $2000 and that is way out of my budget, especially since my budget is zero. My husband is going to hang on to the Veloce (it will fit him if he swaps the stem for a 120mm one). I just spent over $300 trying to make the Veloce fit me and I am tapped out.

SadieKate, I am going to go to Rex for a fitting and when I can buy a bike next fall, I'll have something to go on. Thanks for the recommendations.

[SadieKate]

Sure thing! I hope we get to meet sometime. I'd even brave the American River Bike Path to do so. Might need some valium for it, but I could do it.

[Triskeliongirl]

You should be able to pick up a 2001-2004 symetry on ebay or at the terry buy/sell site for ~$300-400, so perhaps your best bet is to watch ebay for that. Look over the geometry charts to see if you prefer a 19" (73 degree STA w 49 cm top tube) or 20". I find going down a size is fine as long as you can get your saddle and bars high enough, cuz then you can use a longer stem for better handling. You can always turn them around at the terry site if they don't work out for you. There are 2, 19" bikes now at the webiste, yes their prices are high but maybe they'll negoitate if they aren't moving. I think the 2001-2003 isis and symetry in steel are just wonderful bikes.

[xeney]

I did go to a local Terry dealer and look at the bikes. They don't stock them in my size, and the owner does not think that a Terry will work for me; he says my proportions are wrong and that they rarely work for women of my height. He tried me on an Orbea and it felt like a good fit, but I really can't afford it right now so I don't think I am going to go take a real test ride or have a real fitting immediately, because if I like it that will just break my heart. I may buy a frameset from him and swap the components over from my Bianchi at some point, though.

SadieKate, even I am avoiding the bike trail! Not because of the kids and the slow people (I am one of them), but because of the stupid puncture vine. It is everywhere this year. Changing flats makes for a good upper body workout but I'd rather just lift weights.

[xeney]

An update: the new stem FINALLY showed up, and my husband put the Bianchi together with the set-back seatpost, a new Fizik Vitesse saddle (it had the most fore-aft adjustability of any women's saddle we found, and it seems to be a good fit for me all around), and the super-short stem. Five centimeters. It looks ridiculous but it did the trick. We've got KOPS, we've got a ninety-degree angle at my shoulders when I'm on the hoods, I can reach the drops. It's far from perfect -- five centimeters is a crazy short stem, and the front hub is not obscured when I'm in the drops, but it is very rideable.

The steering is a little squirrely when I'm up on the top bar, but not noticeable on the hoods. I think it's just completely compensated for by the fact that I can actually reach the hoods without stretching.

I will get a new bike eventually (and give this one to my husband) but this will work for now. Thanks for all your help, everyone.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

If it RIDES good and you FEEL good....it IS good! Forget about rules concerning obscuring your hub view, etc.
Comfortable body position, balance, and ease of reach is what counts. A good position allows your arms and legs to work and move smoothly and efficiently, achieving their intended tasks without cramps, pain or numbness.

Give us another update in a few days on how you feel riding it! I'd be interested in seeing whether you like it as much as I like mine. I got used to the tighter steering arc (some refer to it as "squirrely") in about 2 days- now I like it better than the old wide-arc steering of the long stem I had. Less wasted bar swinging movements when traversing gravel roads with stones everywhere.

"Another satisfied 5cm Stem customer" -Lisa "Squirrely" Johnson